- 08:48 AM
- 11/22/09
| Name: | Chip Austin |
|---|---|
| Member since: | January 23, 2006 |
| Last visit: | November 15, 2009 |
naturalpro has posted 0 links and 9 comments to SportsFilter and 0 links and 0 comments to the Locker Room.
To "Drood":
Certainly, the manner in which young Castor has been "treated" by the media, the IAAF and other sports bodies and journalists has been quite less than exemplary -- although I wouldn't go quite so far as to say she has been "condemned'. Their handling of the whole situation began poorly and only got worse as they attempted to put a better spin on it.
However, the very valid issue/question of Castor being acceptable, or not, for athletic competition against women is one that clearly must be addressed.
Her competitors essentially cried out for it. She was different --- make that Super Different --- awfully fast in the span of less than one year as compared to her previous best times.
For sure, its a very tough situation -- especially for Castor Semenya, however, let's hope that a much better methodology for handling such issues as hers can be established so that a circumstance such as this won't even have the opportunity to get so negative and hurtful in the future.
posted by naturalpro at 12:55 AM on August 28
Hi Weedy, nice to see your comments.
I'm not so certain it's my next move, though it's certainly the move of those who will adjudicate this issue before them.
As to your comment that "We've never seen this before", well, that may be accurate with respect to the available science of a decade or two (or three) ago, which didn't allow for precise genetic testing and such.
However, there have been numerous "women" in the not so distant past (the Press Sisters of the USSR seem to come to mind) that surely possessed a dominance of "male characteristics" -- but the archaic science available at the time did not allow for an accurate assessment of their gender classification as it relates to athletic competition.
Also, back in 1984-5 I had occasion to meet the World Record Holder in the Women's 800 M -- yes, that "woman" Jarmila Kratochvlov. She was running at the old UCLA Pepsi Track & Field Meets in Los Angeles. Speaking with her standing no more than perhaps two feet from her she wasn't anything that resembled just a superior athletic female. This woman could have been running in the backfield for the UCLA Bruins! She was POWERFUL. Actually, so muscular that one might believe she was too muscle bound to run at such speeds for distances of 400 and 800 meters
Yes, I know there's a great likelihood she was seriously on "the juice", so her situation is not that as of Castor Semenya's at least we don't think just as yet but it's a bit hard to fathom that Jarmila did not inherently possess some major male characteristics to begin with. But, without proper testing protocols (drug or genetic testing) to even launch a case for investigation, she was off and running much faster than her competition.
However, the science of today may certainly provide those of testing authority to establish protocols (along with current protocols) to make a valid determination as to how to "classify" one's gender for purposes of athletic competition.
I'm as interested as anyone to see how this all pans out. ALSO, a quik note to "drned" regarding the great Babe Didrikson -- she was a fine physical specimen, not so terribly feminine -- but she wasn't even close to the "female" athletes under discussion. She would get blown away in a speed and power competition test of any design if she were alive today.
The Great Babe was phenomenally skilled at numerous sports -- but she was an absolutely skilled and talented (and mentally tough) sportswoman athlete. Her achievements weren't due to great physical/genetic dominance, but of a natural God given talent that she refined through many, many years of hard work and determination.
She was a rightly proud Texas girl who didn't like losing to anyone -- male or female.
posted by naturalpro at 12:00 AM on August 28
Atheist -- its fine that you've clarified your point -- but again, that's just how you "feel" -- which won't have any effect upon how this "case" will ultimately be determined.
You see, Castor's plumbing may very well show "she" is a female, but because it may be determined that she naturally has an exceedingly high degree of "male characteristics" (i.e., testosterone, other hormones, genetic traits, etc. as determined by those in authority to do so), she will not be "classified" as female with the right to compete against females.
If this turns out to be the case, its certainly not Castor's fault (she seems quite nice and the outcry of support on her behalf is quite noble), buts its just the way it'll be.
Remember, the overriding issue is competitive fairness, and those in authority will make their most measured decision in the best interests to all competitors.
posted by naturalpro at 07:48 PM on August 27
Whether or not we would like to accept it or agree with it, those in the capacity of authority (sanctioning bodies and associated scientists, specialists and laboratories) will utilize the accepted standards to render their determination as to Castor Semenya's gender classification and right to compete against females.
Since the "accepted standards" (the "law' if you will) of medical/scientific classification of one's gender is now more than ever being observed by so many in the world, those who will be rendering their "decision/ruling" are no doubt taking their time and measuring every aspect of this "case".
Now, due to this controversy, perhaps we could end up having "new" law (accepted standards) created as it relates to determining the issue(s) before the "court" of jurisdiction (those empowered to decide this case).
We can all apply conjecture as to what we think, feel, "believe", want, feel is "right" or whatever -- but the bottom line will be the Central Issue that has been noted above in my two earlier posts.
People -- that's the law, unless however those empowered to decide elect to create new standards of determination to more effectively arrive at an equitable solution to this not so simple "just check the plumbing" issue.
posted by naturalpro at 05:01 PM on August 27
After reading the 2:39 post by Atheist, it's once again clear that the central issue is still being missed.
I understand the points you are trying to make -- but if Castor's body is "naturally" producing a degree/amount of testosterone or whatever other substances or male characteristics that are scientifically determined to be beyond the realm of a female -- then she is simply not a female.
Yes, "people are what they are, for what ever reason, genetic, hormonal, nutritional, environmental, or cultural" -- but if those people are appropriately determined by recognized/accepted science as being of not the same gender as their competitors -- then the sports sanctioning bodies must step in to halt the decidedly unfair competitive advantage.
You see, there is also an overriding issue of fairness to all competitors that must be considered -- and this is clearly why this entire issue came about.
Its understandable that this is not a simple/easy determination to be made by the appropriate authorities/scientists -- although we can be fairly sure that those making this determination are being closely scrutinized and their medical findings will be viewed under intense magnification.
Ultimately, this could be a very important test case for future similar issues of gender classification as it relates to competition in sport.
BTW, the point you make regarding the Chinese basketball player is a non-issue. Since the player is unquestionably a male, his pituitary/genetic condition is irrelevant to the central issue. He is a male competing against other males -- he just happens to be a genetically advantaged/superior male athlete with regard to his height.
posted by naturalpro at 03:46 PM on August 27
It seems that you guys are missing the central issue: Whether or not she can be defined as a "woman/female" as defined/determined by a panel of multiple medical specialists utilizing numerous scientifically accepted standards/criteria.
If Castor possesses a greater degree of "male characteristics" (not just being "naturally genetically superior/advantaged" with regard to being a female athlete), then she clearly will not be a female competing against females. Case in point: Allison Felix is very, very fast -- as in 10.93, 21.88. 48.00 FAST -- but, she is without a shadow of a doubt a Female.
Case in point: Lisa Leslie is quite tall and an incredible athlete -- but she is definitely a Female.
Both Allison and Lisa are "naturally genetically superior/advantaged" -- but, they are both females competing against females -- which may not be the case for Castor Semenya.
Those in the IAAF and/or other authorized sports bodies are zeroing in on this central issue -- not the other peripheral points that have been made so far on this board.
Also, I want to note that I personally, at this juncture, believe young Castor is a Female -- that just happens to be a helluva runner. Matter of fact, somewhat brings to mind a person by the name of Maria Mutola -- herself one helluva 800 meter runner.
posted by naturalpro at 01:48 PM on August 27
I've never been a Cowboy fan, nor a NY Football Giant fan -- hence, I had no emotional stake in the outcome of their contest. Just from a pure football playing standpoint, it seemed fairly clear that the Cowboy team squandered nurmerous opportunities to gain momentum (dropped passes, etc) and score clear touchdowns. Their penchant for committing penalties also destroyed their chances. Additionally, allowing the Giants to score so quickly at the end of the first half was pathetic on their part. The Cowboys are probably the better team, but there's no way they deserved to win. Those pokes apparently need to learn some lessons -- and they'll get a long off season to realize and apply them. The Giants put pressure on Romo and kept battling, and you've got to hand it to them for hanging on at the end. They were less than sensational, however, it just seemed that they were destined to win and the Cowboy team certainly obliged the football gods by self-destructing. Now, we get to see what destiny holds for the Packers in the venerable "Frozen Tundra" of Lambeau Field. Brett Favre has got to be a nostalgic favorite to longtime football fans to make it to the Super Bowl, and I'm sure the networks will definitely be pulling for the Packers. I'd like to see the Giants knock them off, although it would seem their football destiny probably ended today -- but again -- that's why they play the game.
posted by naturalpro at 11:57 PM on January 13
btw - My guess is an Ohio State/Texas rematch for the title. Tell you what "bdaddy" -- you may very well be precisely right. If Texas runs the table on their remaining games, and wins impressively, Florida and Auburn probably don't have a chance no matter what they do. If Texas wins this weekend v. K-State, the Harris Poll will move them into third. They'll be positioned to smooth into second after Ohio State v. Michigan. Heck, the networks and advertisers would surely want an Ohio State - Texas rematch. Florida or Auburn would be OK, but in the build-up to the national title game, neither of them would arouse as much interest in the nation as a whole. Additionally, that Colt Mc Coy kid has got a great name, but even better, he's got the game to back it up. Granted, he had a lackluster start against The Ohio State University way back on Sept. 9th -- but that was a long time ago. He's the real deal -- and he seems to get better each week. He's tough, smart, athletic and has that incredible intangible -- he's a born leader. By the way, the game played by Rutgers was one of the most inspirational efforts by a group of young men that were undersized underdogs I have ever seen. My God they fought one helluva fight on a night they were not going to be denied victory. There's no question anymore, they have the unquestioned respect of the nation -- with a bigtime capital R.
posted by naturalpro at 02:32 PM on November 10
Renee Richards Questions Caster Semenya's Eligibility to Compete
Drood, if you would choose to view the issue of Castor Semenya in manner that's no so gruff and simplistic, you might see that the larger overriding issue that has been taken up by the authorized Sports governing bodies is quite well founded.
This is much more than merely sour grapes by other competitors.
Its an issue of fundamental athletic fairness, and it must be addressed sooner or later.
Additionally, I've reread my previous posts, and I don't believe any objective observer would believe in any way that any comments written could be construed as "whining".
To the contrary, I believe they are balanced, objective, and discuss the issues as they have been presented before us.
Perhaps if you actually care to have a reasonable discussion on this board's topic of Castor Semenya, you could take a bit of time to view all of the previous posts.
If you just choose to have a closed opinion, talk tough and swear -- it'll be very hard to have the vast body of people respect you (here or anywhere) and pay any attention to your point of view.
Having been an All-Conference college football linebacker and sprinter (and other sports), and a successful businessman in competitive world, I know quite well a thing or two about toughness, as well as keeping my head about me in challenging and uncomfortable circumstances, or with people in which I may not agree.
Like all of us, you have a right to your opinion. However, most times whether it makes any difference or matters to anyone other than yourself depends on how you express it. Perhaps a little more living of life may show this to you, or perhaps not.