Hey, I'm all for women's ski jumping getting in. Sign me up for the petition to the IOC. I just don't see how suing VANOC -- who have no control whatsoever over the sporting programme -- is anything other than a publicity stunt. And lbb -- I do think that according to the charter as you've quoted it, the IOC has an obligation to put pressure on the FIS to develop women's ski jumping. I don't think they have to automatically have exactly the same events (or even the same number of events) for women as for men; but they should have policies that move sport in that direction. From where I sit, there is plenty of evidence that the IOC is putting exactly that kind of pressure on most of the Olympic sports.
Why do these women think they have some entitlement to be in the Olympics? Ick, that sounds terrible. I don't even know what to say with this kind of statement. Thanks for taking my comment entirely out of context. It would have said these "men" these "kids" these "people" if those terms were applicable. As it turns out, these are women, which is why I phrased it "these women". The IOC charter states that the IOC's role includes "...to encourage and support the promotion of women in sport at all levels and in all structures with a view to implementing the principle of equality of men and women..." Sounds like it is on them, after all. Sorry, lbb, where in that does it say that the IOC must include every sport that women have ever considered playing? Encouragement does not neccessarily mean the inclusion of an event at the Olympic level. It can, and does also mean material and non-material support to the development of women's sport. As I understand the IOC's position, women's ski-jumping is not developed enough yet to warrant an olympic event. That does not mean they don't support women's sport. On that same line, should the IOC include women's american football, just because there is a small league in the US, and to not have an event would somehow imply that the IOC does not "promote" that particular women's sport? Sure, the Vancouver Olympics are in large part taxpayer funded, but that money was not given with the singular condition that the Olympics will in fact be held in Vancouver. Of course, they will have to obey local law, that goes with out saying, but there is no law in Canada that obligates the Olympics to hold any event that is demanded by an organized group of women, men, or whatever. I will say it again: if these women want a championship in their event, they are fully entitled to create one for themselves, and fully entitled to lobby the IOC to include it as an event in the Sochi games in 2014. They are not, however, entitled to force the IOC to include the event in 2010 by calling its absence a "human rights violation".
Amateur: Hey, I'm all for women's ski jumping getting in. Sign me up for the petition to the IOC. I just don't see how suing VANOC -- who have no control whatsoever over the sporting programme -- is anything other than a publicity stunt. I suppose you can call any action intended to influence public opinion and so create pressure a "publicity stunt". By that measure, the 1963 March on Washington was a "publicity stunt". It's my sense of history that you tend to get these sorts of "publicity stunts" when people can't bring pressure to bear in a more direct way. That's certainly the case here. I am not a lawyer, but how exactly would you go about suing the IOC? And lbb -- I do think that according to the charter as you've quoted it, the IOC has an obligation to put pressure on the FIS to develop women's ski jumping. And they might indeed want to do that, but in a sense, the FIS has them over a barrel -- as is, I suspect, the case for all governing organizations. The only real sanction that the IOC could bring to bear would be withdrawing recognition, but they can't do that -- who would replace FIS if they did? Once the IOC recognizes an international governing organization for a sport, any other competing organization that might have the resources to organize international competition tends to die on the vine. It's not a setup that favors reform or accountability. Chargdres: Sorry, lbb, where in that does it say that the IOC must include every sport that women have ever considered playing? Encouragement does not neccessarily mean the inclusion of an event at the Olympic level. Let me provide the quote again, this time with emphasis: "...to encourage and support the promotion of women in sport at all levels and in all structures with a view to implementing the principle of equality of men and women..." "At all levels" not only includes the Olympics -- which, y'know, it being the International Olympic Committee, you would certainly expect to be included -- but the various levels that lead up to the Olympic level. I will say it again: if these women want a championship in their event, they are fully entitled to create one for themselves, and fully entitled to lobby the IOC to include it as an event in the Sochi games in 2014. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of where international championships come from. "These women" aren't "fully entitled" to create a championship, any more than "these men" are, in any sport. That is the province of an international governing body that has recognition from the IOC. "These women" can't just up and create a championship outside the auspices of the FIS, and have the IOC take said championship into consideration. The IOC will not act on any initiative that is not promoted by FIS. It is not a setup that favors change.
I suppose you can call any action intended to influence public opinion and so create pressure a "publicity stunt". By that measure, the 1963 March on Washington was a "publicity stunt". You're drawing a direct parallel between the struggle for racial equality in the U.S. and a group of women who aren't getting to ski jump at the Olympics filing a lawsuit and pushing it as a human right issue. Wow. Just wow.
"...to encourage and support the promotion of women in sport at all levels and in all structures with a view to implementing the principle of equality of men and women..." lbb, I am still missing the the part of that quote which binds the IOC to include women's ski jump as an event. Its charter calls for promotion and support. Both of those objectives, which are intentionally vague, can and are met without the having an Olympic event. I don't believe any man is entitled to comete in the Olympics either. However, if no international body has created a women's world ski jumping championship, they are fully entitled to create one for themselves if they are so willing. If the FIS refuses to host it, then they are essentially ceding the responsibility to whoever else comes along to take up the banner. The FIS does not have a copyright on the term "champion" or "championship". And again, when I refered to "these women" I was not referring to women in general, as you appear intent on twisting my words into meaning. You see, I used the term "these", an adjective implying exclusivity, in order to refer only the the women petitioning the Canadian Human Rights body for redress. But thanks again for making me out to be a sexist, thats real cool of you.
After reading all the posts, including the links and links within links, I'm having a hard time working up any energy to get behind this cause. 130 athletes world wide is a minuscule group by any standard, and I don't think the I.O.C. should be forced to placate every group that petions for inclusion. The group should be focusing on the FIS to hold more events for them, and thus be able to build a case for the 2014 games. From the original article: But Ms. Corradini said there are double the number of women ski jumpers competing internationally as in the popular ski-cross men's and women's events, which the IOC added to the 2010 Games While I have not researched this...too much to do on Friday afternoon...I find it hard to believe that there are less than 65 ski-cross participants on a world wide basis. The Xgames have been extremely popular, and I've watched several amatuer ski cross events. Anyone have proof that there are only 65 ski crossers world wide?
Article seems sadly confused, they say it's the only Olympic event closed to women. That seems like a pretty damn good reason to just add women's and call it a day. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be true. I believe boxing is men only. I'd like to see women's boxing though. And I'd watch women's ski jumping too even though I don't really watch the olympics. I'm sure they have some nice outfits, which is irrelevant to the merits of their cause but might affect my tv viewing choices.
wfrazerjr: You're drawing a direct parallel between the struggle for racial equality in the U.S. and a group of women who aren't getting to ski jump at the Olympics filing a lawsuit and pushing it as a human right issue. Wow. Just wow. Totally, completely wrong. I was pointing out that the "publicity stunt" canard doesn't address the merits of the cause in question, and using a famous example of when this was the case. Wow, just wow, yourself. Chargdres: lbb, I am still missing the the part of that quote which binds the IOC to include women's ski jump as an event. Its charter calls for promotion and support. Both of those objectives, which are intentionally vague, can and are met without the having an Olympic event. [emphasis mine] By your use of the phrase "intentionally vague", you are claiming to have some factual knowledge of the intentions of the IOC in drafting that clause of its charter. I admit you have me at a disadvantage, because all I have is the words of the charter itself, plus my memory of statements Rogge has made in the past, specific to the inclusion of women's ski jumping. If you can produce this factual knowledge that shows that "at all levels and in all structures" does not include the Olympics itself, I will readily concede. And again, when I refered to "these women" I was not referring to women in general, as you appear intent on twisting my words into meaning. Let me repeat what I typed above: You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of where international championships come from. "These women" aren't "fully entitled" to create a championship, any more than "these men" are, in any sport. That is the province of an international governing body that has recognition from the IOC. "These women" can't just up and create a championship outside the auspices of the FIS, and have the IOC take said championship into consideration. The IOC will not act on any initiative that is not promoted by FIS. It is not a setup that favors change. Now, where in all that is there anything to indicate that I thought you were referring to all women? I'd say the reverse was quite clear: that I'm talking about a specific group of people and explaining why they can't just up and create their own world championship. dviking: 130 athletes world wide is a minuscule group by any standard, and I don't think the I.O.C. should be forced to placate every group that petions for inclusion. The group should be focusing on the FIS to hold more events for them, and thus be able to build a case for the 2014 games. The group has focused on the FIS. They didn't just come into being in the last month or so, they've been working on this for years. The FIS still doesn't have World Cup jumping events for women. How can this group bring pressure on the FIS? What leverage, exactly, do they have? wood: Article seems sadly confused, they say it's the only Olympic event closed to women. That seems like a pretty damn good reason to just add women's and call it a day. It's the only event in the winter games that excludes women.
