April 19, 2008

Hidden: Fukudome doesn't find racist T-shirts in Wrigleyville funny: A Fukudome T-shirt with a racist image is the hottest-selling item at a souvenir stand that sells unlicensed Cubs-related merchandise across Addison Street from the ballpark.......... The Cubs front office was flooded with angry emails from fans in response to a Sun-Times story about a controversial T-shirt being sold outside of Wrigley Field. The ballclub does the right thing (update inside) after the uproar, for those of you who feel we've licked the problem of Racism in America, Guess Again!

posted by skydivedad to baseball at 10:43 AM - 183 comments

When I 1st read this article originally I felt I was in a time warp. Are you kidding me! Cubs Outfielder Kosuke Fukudome is just arrived in our country and as far as most fans of the Ballclub are concerned he's been nothing but a fine example of Class. I just can't imagine how he feels seeing such a blatant display of Racial Bigotry and stereotyping being displayed in the neighborhood and being new here I hope he doesn't judge us all by this outrage. Reading the justification given by this lame brained vendor in defense of the indefensible leaves me angrier and ashamed to think so called Fans of my beloved Cubbies can even consider this an appropriate display of support for the Ballclub and this astounding talent we're blessed with having in a Cubs uniform. As for the Cubs organization they were able to attempt to remove this stain on the Honor of their organization. I can't imagine how Kosuke must feel being so far away from his Homeland and to be treated to one of the lowest forms of American Culture. "Racism for Profit"

posted by skydivedad at 10:58 AM on April 19

What's next from this vendor, big-lipped, flat-nosed, Cubbie logos for Derek Lee or sleepy, drunken, sombrero-wearing logos for Aramis Ramirez? The Cubs and MLB should shut this guy down. He epitmoizes the drunken louts that have overtaken Wrigley the last 20 years. There are way too many people that go there just to get drunk and party. They don't watch the game and the right field bleacher crowd is the worst. They've started wearing Kamikaze bandanas to 'honor' Fukudome. Those should be banned from the park and if you're caught wearing one, you should be thrown out of the park. And let's not forget the 'tradition' of throwing visitor team's home run balls back on the field. This week's Reds game had 25 baseballs thrown onto the field for one home run, holding up the game while they were retrieved. Sometimes, I'm ashamed to be a Cubs fan.

posted by Shotput at 11:24 AM on April 19

The image feeds not only ugly, arrogant and ignorant Japanese stereotypes, but also the stereotype of the obnoxious, profane, drunken, booing, garbage-throwing Cubs fan. 'Nuff said.

posted by BoKnows at 11:29 AM on April 19

why does this suprise anybody.

posted by shudacudawuda at 11:43 AM on April 19

Would the same outrage occur if it was an image of a shirtless, hairy, bib-overalled, southern, white guy spitting tobacco juice saying, "Shazam!"?

posted by sandskater at 12:37 PM on April 19

Having lived in Japan for a number of years, and having mostly experienced courtesy, consideration and understanding there, I can only shake my head in sadness. I suppose there's no law against being an idiot, but I surely wish there were. 'Nuff said indeed, Bo.

posted by Howard_T at 12:44 PM on April 19

Would the same outrage occur if it was an image of a shirtless, hairy, bib-overalled, southern, white guy spitting tobacco juice saying, "Shazam!"? For a white player in Japan, yes.

posted by charlatan at 12:49 PM on April 19

Would the same outrage occur if it was an image of a shirtless, hairy, bib-overalled, southern, white guy spitting tobacco juice saying, "Shazam!"? You mean like Larry the Cable Guy, who makes millions playing that very stereotype? I doubt it. Like clockwork, anytime racism is exposed, someone must defend the poor, exploited American white man. These are usually the very people who slam "PC" takes on non-whites (which is usually code for, "How's come I cain't say nigger no more?!"), but whine and cry about the tender sensitivities of whites. Typical.

posted by afl-aba at 12:50 PM on April 19

This Is excactly what's wrong with our country. No matter how offensive the shirt is, he has the right given by our way of life to sell it. And buy the way it, seems to be making him alot of money. If he wasn't selling alot of the shirts he would'nt have them. So the talkm of shut this guy down is worthless. What about the larger issue of people who are buying the shirts? Now they don't have the right to wear a t-shirt. Since when did we adopt a dress code in the USA?Or acorrding to shotput everyone needs to take a baseball test to go buy a ticket. Since when does one grouyp get to decide how and when someone else sees a baseball game? People go to baseball games to party and have a good time , NOT ALLOWED! STAY OUT! Only people who really understand the game are allowed in. And keep your Damn kids quiet, I am trying to watch a ballgame! Where does this end ? There is always someone who is going to disagree with something. That is part of our fundamental freedoms as Americans. When we start locking up people because of what they say or beleive, we as Americans lose the most precious of rights, our freedom.

posted by volfire at 01:26 PM on April 19

Like clockwork, anytime racism is exposed, someone must defend the poor, exploited American white man. These are usually the very people who slam "PC" takes on non-whites (which is usually code for, "How's come I cain't say nigger no more?!"), but whine and cry about the tender sensitivities of whites. Typical. I guess i disagree a bit here. I understand that as a young white american male, i can very easily fall into justifying why many times it is easier for me to live here than those of different ethnicities rather than admit the level of genuine prejudice that exists today. That being said, issues of racism are far more complex than to merely look at the group "on top," call them out for racism, and then chide them when they raise genuine concerns about reverse racism. While i would never claim that it is harder to be white, i think it is disengenuous, and revealing, when people of other ethnicities refuse to take seriously the genuine concerns of some (not all) white people about the reality of reverse racism. All people groups have their shortcomings when interacting with others (some worse than others), and the sooner we admit that, the better. That is all off topic though. Clearly in this case the vendor is either so dumb, or is blatantly racist, that he should have someone monitor his "bright ideas."

posted by brainofdtrain at 01:31 PM on April 19

Where does this end? I don't think asking to end racism-for-profit and drunken fights in the stands is too much to ask for.

posted by Shotput at 01:57 PM on April 19

Would the same outrage occur if it was an image of a shirtless, hairy, bib-overalled, southern, white guy spitting tobacco juice saying, "Shazam!"? No, it wouldn't. But that's another problem all together, and doesn't make this one right. You mean like Larry the Cable Guy, who makes millions playing that very stereotype? I doubt it. So some guy makes millions playing on the stereotype and that gives everyone free reign to do the same? That is an amazingly dumb statement. Not to mention that larry the cable guy is from nebraska; not exactly the deep south.

posted by justgary at 02:11 PM on April 19

So some guy makes millions playing on the stereotype and that gives everyone free reign to do the same? That is an amazingly dumb statement. But look who buys into the stereotype -- southern white people (among other regions)! Are you telling me that blacks and Latinos are laughing at Larry because he conforms to the stereotype? Please. Not to mention that larry the cable guy is from nebraska; not exactly the deep south. Right. His name is Dan Whitney, and he was a failed stand-up who created Larry. Smart move. A NASCAR comic who feeds the prejudices of his white audience. God Bless 'Murica.

posted by afl-aba at 02:45 PM on April 19

No matter how offensive the shirt is, he has the right given by our way of life to sell it. Actually, he doesn't have "the right given by [your] way of life" to sell it. Cubs officials investigated, discovered the unlicensed product used a trademarked Cubs logo and confronted the vendor Ė who complied with the teamís demand to pull the shirt and cease production. American trademark law says he can't do it.

posted by grum@work at 05:05 PM on April 19

Not going to get down on a guy trying to make a buck (although a illegal buck). Recommend examining your own personal beliefs and prejudges. Would rather examine the people buying the tshirts and motivation for their purchase, and pose a question to members of Sportfi. Would you confront the guy selling the tshirts or the people buying? Easy to give lip service over the Internet. Much more effective example would be through your actions and deeds.

posted by giveuptheghost at 05:53 PM on April 19

"Easy to give lip service over the Internet. Much more effective example would be through your actions and deeds." posted by giveuptheghost at 5:53 PM CDT on April 19 Isn't that exactly what your comment does! The only person discussed in the article that purchased this shirt turned out to be the daughter of a woman who collects examples of racist images of Asian Americans But the customer in question, Laureen Hom, had no intention of wearing the shirt, she said. ''I bought it for my mom, who has a collection of racist images of Asian Americans,'' she said. And, she added, the fact the creator is Asian ''is no excuse.'' "Would you confront the guy selling the tshirts or the people buying? Easy to give lip service over the Internet. Much more effective example would be through your actions and deeds." posted by giveuptheghost at 5:53 PM CDT on April 19 Yes, I would confront the vendor and anyone indifferent and ignorant enough to wear such filth. Both the vendor and his customers who purchased these are either "sadly ignorant." as the author suggested or callous bigots. I've confronted the KKK in Skokie IL, near Circle Campus in Chicago's Loop, in downtown Kalamazoo Mi as well Gulfport Mississippi and several other locations. I've received death threats for articles I've written and have had urine thrown on me by the same types who would callously chuckle amongst themselves as they demean another culture and dehumanize a fellow human being. I know of several members here on SportsFilter that would have gladly joined me in any of those actions. I have friends who've been badly injured, jailed or beaten for standing up to these bullies. So, whats your point? That by discussing evil online we're all somehow cowards. That it is better we just let these goofballs go unchallenged online as well as off and leave this mess for our children. I think not.

posted by skydivedad at 06:37 PM on April 19

The only person discussed in the article that purchased this shirt turned out to be the daughter of a woman who collects examples of racist images of Asian Americans That doesn't mean the only people buying the shirts are people who collect examples of racist images. In fact, the vendor states that the shirt is the years best seller and estimates that only one in ten customers complain about being offended. Perhaps there are some that would confront this vendor but there are obviously many, many others who would do nothing.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 06:49 PM on April 19

My intention was not to insult or make light of the selling of tshirts and the racist connotation implied, or to suggest that Internet replies to such conduct do not have some merit. I'm sure skydivedad your one of the forces trying to erase the scourge of racism in this country, however one or a few persons giving example of indifference to racism is not going to stop the prejudice. My intention was to make Sportfi contributors aware the real problem in this country is apathy toward the race problems and the best we all can do is raise our children without the hatred of our forefathers and not writing your disapproval for someone selling a few tshirts on a sport blog. I'm sorry if I offended you.

posted by giveuptheghost at 08:03 PM on April 19

I find the name Ying Yang Mafia [(see two posts above)(nothing personal)] an offensive user name. But as long as he/she is a member of the Chinese underworld, it's ok....right? I agree this situation with the t-shirt is unacceptable, but we should lobby for an end to racism everywhere you see it, including when African-Americans call themselves and others the N-word.

posted by scuubie at 08:57 PM on April 19

A. It shouldn't be a trademark infringement, it's a parody. In that vein I don't see the difference between that and Weird Al Yankovich's product. B. It's a joke. It's just a freakin joke. There are very few jokes that don't offend somebody. That's kinda the point of a joke. In this case, it offends a millionaire baseball player. Aww. It's not nearly as bad as my thought that the "Fukudome" would be a brilliant name for a stadium. C. I have seen a lot of t-shirts that are far more offensive than this, without nearly the creativity. I don't, personally, care for this shirt, and in fact would excoriate anyone I know who wore it, but it is clever, and obviously popular. Sometimes the things that we love about America are the things that we hate about being Americans.

posted by bobfoot at 10:38 PM on April 19

I find the name Ying Yang Mafia [(see two posts above)(nothing personal)] an offensive user name. But as long as he/she is a member of the Chinese underworld, it's ok....right? Well, if his user name was Yin Yang Mafia then you may have a case, but this particular user calls himself Ying Yang Mafia. There's no correlation there. You may think I'm splitting hairs here, but there was a time where the user named Ying Yang Mafia admitted that his name makes no sense. I can't find the post now, but maybe he'll chime in with a link to it. Besides, we call him Wing Wang Mafia 'round these parts.

posted by NoMich at 11:10 PM on April 19

Afl-Aba Your visceral reaction and utter disdain for the implication of the question points to one of two things; complete self-loathing of your own race or hatred of another's. In either event, how did you learn to hate so much?

posted by sandskater at 11:39 PM on April 19

I can't help but find it funny that this shirt was sold by Cub fans to Cub fans. I've seen "off-color" team shirts a plenty, but aren't they usually sold by the rival team? And for rival fans? Gees, the team spends 48 million bucks on a guy, he's hitting .317, and is in the top 4 of almost every offensive category. Has a .978 Fielding Percentage and is a solid everyday player. The Cubs are in 2nd place. Things are good. And the best, most clever shirt that the Cub fan faithful could come up with is a stolen, trademarked image, with Harry Carey's glasses, Fukudome's orbital likeness, and an stereotypical accent? Oh yeah, plus a clever font. And the kicker, is that Fukudome himself is a part of the 10% of "offended" parties that the vendor knows all about.

posted by BoKnows at 12:10 AM on April 20

Your visceral reaction and utter disdain for the implication of the question points to one of two things; complete self-loathing of your own race or hatred of another's. My race is the human race. What's yours?

posted by afl-aba at 07:37 AM on April 20

As trite, cliche, and non-responsive as expected.

posted by sandskater at 09:35 AM on April 20

The whole racism thing cracks me up anyway, since the US is populated mostly by descendants of immigrants from other countries, not unlike Mr. Fukudome himself. Sometimes I'm almost ashamed to be an American.

posted by NerfballPro at 10:50 AM on April 20

Well, if his user name was Yin Yang Mafia then you may have a case, but this particular user calls himself Ying Yang Mafia. There's no correlation there. You may think I'm splitting hairs here, but there was a time where the user named Ying Yang Mafia admitted that his name makes no sense. I can't find the post now, but maybe he'll chime in with a link to it. Besides, we call him Wing Wang Mafia 'round these parts. I'd link to my original statement but I think it was made in the locker room, in which case it would be very hard to find as there is no locker room seach option. But like NoMich said, there is no true meaning behind the name.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 11:43 AM on April 20

As trite, cliche, and non-responsive as expected. Coming from whom -- spokes-insect of the mantispeople?

posted by afl-aba at 01:11 PM on April 20

oh my ... the big words... Im so sick hearing about people being "offended" but a white person cant be... come on now... I dont allow racism in my home at all not against any race..... that being said my little story goes like this.. I am a mother of a teenager who is white ... most of his friends are black ( I myself tend to have more black friends than white ) ... anyway a kid who is black and has been coming around with my some for 11 years.. spent the night several times.. my son has stayed over at his house as well, was at my home the other day and when i brought the new baby downstairs said " ewwww white babies creep me out" and yes I quote.... I am still mad about this because If the tables were turned and my son said that about black or asian or arab ect... babies I would have hell to pay... IM SICK OF IT!!!!!! ending racisom means all racism not just certain groups AND FYI most white people in America have many ethnicities we not are all off the santa maria....

posted by brandy at 01:54 PM on April 20

Brandy -- when you are part of only 12-15% of the population, coming out of a history of slavery, violence, and apartheid, and still must deal with lingering hatred for your tribe by the dominant tribe, then perhaps the "racism" of blacks might take on a different meaning. I agree that all racism, no matter the source, must be discouraged if not eliminated (impossible, in my view). But not all racism is equal, however noxious it is.

posted by afl-aba at 02:03 PM on April 20

the entire human race comes from a history of slavery, violence, apartheid .... since the start of time... thats how it is and i dont think it has too much to do with race ... it has more to do with money

posted by brandy at 02:11 PM on April 20

and by the way many of my ancestors died or were wounded and definitly affected during the civil war ... fighting to end slavery...

posted by brandy at 02:13 PM on April 20

Well, another thread gets derailed. I tried to get it back on track a few posts up. But I guess all topics from now on must be tied to some social problem and the eventual demise of humankind. This could've been a good thread too, all at the Cubs expense. Please, let's try to stay on topic.

posted by BoKnows at 02:18 PM on April 20

not all racism is equal,... Handicapping racism. Novel concept from an equally novel mind.

posted by sandskater at 03:44 PM on April 20

Isn't the Cubs stadium for sale? Maybe a Japanese company can buy it and rename it Fukudome - that would totally rock.

posted by worldcup2002 at 02:02 AM on April 21

Oh, my, I am going to wade into this. Ethnic comedy is a minefield. If you're going to walk into that minefield, you should go in with your eyes wide open. The first thing you should know is that your intention is largely meaningless. You could intend to satirize racists, but even if you do it with expert precision, there is still going to be some group of folks who don't get the joke. This is because communication requires both a transmitter and a receiver. If the receiver isn't on the same wavelength as the transmitter, the message isn't going to arrive properly. So, the first lesson is that somebody is going to accuse you of being racist eventually if you do any sort of ethnic humor. The second thing you should know is that your actual ethnicity is largely meaningless. Yes, there is a world of difference between a bunch of white racists telling black jokes and Chris Rock telling black jokes, but to some of those same white racists, Chris Rock telling those jokes is a justification for them telling those jokes. Larry the Cable Guy is used as justification for making redneck jokes. The "its ok because I'm making fun of my own ethnicity" argument is all well and good, but somebody is still going to use your act as "proof" that their beliefs about people of your ethnicity are justified. So, the second lesson is that somebody is going to use you to justify their own racism if you do ethnic humor about your own ethnicity. The third thing you need to know about ethnic humor is that your intention is frequently going to be interpreted based on who laughs at your jokes. In the case of this t-shirt, it matters not that the unseen creator of the shirt was Asian. What matters is that the people purchasing it were probably buying it at least in part because they were amused by the racist joke. So, the third lesson is that your work will be judged by who is in your audience. Finally, the fourth thing you need to know about ethnic humor is that well meaning people who are not especially racist will see you make an ethnic joke about your own ethnicity and will think that it is all right for them to make that joke, too. Some dude who has no issues with Asians but who has low social skills will see a t-shirt like that and think "wow, I guess it is ok to make that joke" and then, in an inebriated state, will repeat the joke and get his ass kicked. The joke I've read about this is something like "I call my wife the booty monster but I will kill you if I hear you call her that." Anyhow, my point is that social interaction is complex and, to some extent, your making an ethnic joke (even successfully) will probably result in some moron who found it funny repeating it in the wrong context and getting in trouble for it. So, I suppose, the fourth lesson is that some people will use you as a role model and get in trouble. Anyhow, there are some other points, too, but my main thesis is that you take a big risk when you choose to delve into ethnic humor of any sort, be it about other ethnicities or your own. If you're going to do so, you should be aware that the outcome is not always going to be what you intended. There are stupid people in the world and, while you shouldn't be blamed for their actions, you should know that they will likely blame you for their actions and blame you loudly.

posted by Joey Michaels at 05:00 AM on April 21

Just a question... Did Harry Caray say "Holy Cow!" too (That is what the letters on that shirt attempt to spell, right?) ... I always associate that with the Scooter. Must be my East Coast bias. ;-)

posted by MAYANKEE at 07:34 AM on April 21

why does this suprise anybody That the hometown fans are making a mockery of one of their own players with an insulting t-shirt? That to me is very surprising considering that Fukudome has been a stand up guy from day 1. Just a question... Did Harry Caray say "Holy Cow!" too I was wondering the same thing. I thought that it was Harry Carey's rendition of 'Take me out to the ballgame' as to what made him endearing to the Cubs. I always thought that 'Holy Cow' was a Phil Rizzuto catchphrase.

posted by BornIcon at 07:48 AM on April 21

Just a question... Did Harry Caray say "Holy Cow!" too Caray actually started using the phrase prior to Rizzuto. That being said, I think the shirt is stupid anyways. With all the Japanese players currently in U.S. major league baseball, do Cubs fans really have to act like Fukudome is some majorly different thing?

posted by dyams at 08:19 AM on April 21

brandy: the entire human race comes from a history of slavery, violence, apartheid Name me one white American who was hauled off to a US government internment camp because of his or her ancestry, and for no other reason. Name me one white American who was denied the right to vote, and threatened with violent death for trying to assert that right, simply because of his or her race. Yes, racism can be directed at any race. That doesn't make it all the same, it doesn't make it all equal. More importantly, it doesn't make racist incidents somehow cancel each other out, as your statement above seems to suggest. The fact that somewhere, sometime, white people were enslaved, in at least a few cases by darker-skinned people, doesn't cancel out the racist acts of whites in America today -- or in American history. You may know some story that a friend of your sister told you about some black person saying a racist remark to her, but that doesn't mean it would be okay for you to wear one of those execrable t-shirts. As for that so-common complaint of white Americans that we shouldn't have to pay the price for the mistakes of whites in the past...well, guess what, that's how the "history of slavery, violence, apartheid" works. That's how all history works. The current generation reaps what previous generations sowed, for good or for ill. You may inherit the fruits of years of hard work and struggle, leaving you with a prosperous and peaceful society founded on a tradition of true equality...or you may get stuck with a lot of broken furniture and a big drink tab. If so, no, it's not "fair", but who you gonna bitch to? The ones who did it are dead. Best pick up a broom and start sweeping up the mess, because the only way it gets any better is if you make it better.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:36 AM on April 21

I'd like to see the same level of passionate outrage at the official racist images of the Indians, the Braves, and the Redskins.

posted by irunfromclones at 01:08 PM on April 21

I'd like to see the same level of passionate outrage at the official racist images of the Indians, the Braves, and the Redskins. I'll second that! Can't believe it's taken this many posts before someone actually contextualized this in relation to that much longer-standing, and yet unresolved issue.

posted by Spitztengle at 01:25 PM on April 21

I'd like to see the same level of passionate outrage at the official racist images of the Indians, the Braves, and the Redskins. If any of the above-mentioned teams' logos (or any, for that matter) were made to look like Harry Caray, I believe severe steps would have to be taken to get them changed. Seriously, though, with regards to logos featuring Native American subject matter, I've always felt those of the Indians, Braves, and Redskins were actually compliments. They were meant to be symbols of toughness, competitiveness, and something for fans to adore. They in no way were meant to be jokes, like the Fukodome shirt is. If the Cleveland Indians, way back when, decided to name their franchise as a slap in the face to a race of people, then I would definitely feel differently. On the contrary, they named the team something they felt fans and opponents would respect.

posted by dyams at 01:38 PM on April 21

On the contrary, they named the team something they felt fans and opponents would respect. Wait... are you talking about Chief Wahoo? He looks like a symbol of toughness amd competitiveness to you? To me he looks like an exaggeration of a variety of physical traits of Native Americans. A caricature, if you will. For example, no Native American that I know of has skin that is actually red like that, but see since they're sometimes referred to as "red skins" it is amusing for folks inclined to caricature them to color the skin that bright red - just like it is amusing to color the skin of an Asian character bright yellow. I don't think most Native Americans see these names and symbols as a tribute. The intention of the gesture is not nearly as important as how the gesture is perceived. Surely if you built a statue on your lawn in tribute to your neighbor and it offended them you would think "since my intention was to honor them and they are offended, leaving this statue in my lawn will undermine my original intention" and then you would take the statue down. Anyhow, I've already linked the best solution to the Wahoo problem.

posted by Joey Michaels at 02:05 PM on April 21

I've always felt those of the Indians, Braves, and Redskins were actually compliments And I have heard this defenseless defense many times. Perhaps at one time a white man thought that was how native Americans should be complimented, but the Nations (that is tribes to you) have clearly and repeatedly stated that they find these references offensive. "Redskins" is as offensive to Native Americans as the n word is to blacks. Actually, there is little for me to add to Joey Michaels comments, except to say thank you for that thoughtful reply.

posted by irunfromclones at 02:40 PM on April 21

Joey Michaels........ you aint ever lied...... at least in your comment... being italian mixed with irish and native american I STRONGLY agree with the last comment from irunfromclones although i have experienced and witnessed racism from and toward all races... if you think about it like this... we are all humans (a type of mammal) and I have NEVER seen another animal (besides humans) discrimnate, as a matter of fact my lite brown pitbull has a huge crush (AKA tries to get it on with) the black poodle across the street..... So in lite of the topic at hand ... they should stop making the damn tee shirt.. and if people still want to wear them well they can face the critical comments....

posted by brandy at 03:13 PM on April 21

lil brown bat..... I believe you should do a little more research on your topic... and this story with my son actually happened... and in case you dont know women werent allowed to vote (even white women) until suffrage... in case you dont know ... maybe you should research current events in Ireland with the IRA... AND i'm not cancelling out racism... trust me it is something that bothers me... but you seem to be defending it as long as its not toward someone with color... DO SOME RESEARCH and get back to me when you have something useful to say

posted by brandy at 03:20 PM on April 21

lil brown bat ....... ABE LINCOLN .... in case you didnt know was white and died for a great cause as did many of my ancestors who fought in that war... so F you and i dont owe u anything ... sweep that mess up

posted by brandy at 03:22 PM on April 21

I'll second that! Can't believe it's taken this many posts before someone actually contextualized this in relation to that much longer-standing, and yet unresolved issue. The mascot convo's actually taken place on SpoFi a number of times, and the outrage over the Indians', Braves' and Redskins' mascots is there. If there doesn't seem to be a lot of outrage, it probably is because those aren't new issues, while this "horry cow" crap is. Probably some of it has to do with the choice of target, too -- on the one hand you have a caricature directed at a popular, albeit new, player; on the other hand you have caricatures directed at a group. It's a little less personal, and it's probably a case of whose ox is being gored. I suspect if someone made a stupid Indian caricature directed at Jacoby Ellsbury, you'd see a similar reaction to the Fukudome caricature. But I don't think you'd be stretching to say that the presence of other racist caricatures makes it seem to a not-very-deep thinker that it's acceptable behavior (ref. Joey Michaels).

posted by lil_brown_bat at 03:26 PM on April 21

brandy, hi and welcome to Spofi. Please take a peek at our guidelines, specifically, "No personal attacks. A good comment is respectful of members and their opinions. Address the argument, not the person making it."

posted by yerfatma at 03:27 PM on April 21

yerfatma... I apologize and thank you .... I am very passionate about this issue...

posted by brandy at 03:33 PM on April 21

brandy: lil brown bat..... I believe you should do a little more research on your topic... and this story with my son actually happened... and in case you dont know women werent allowed to vote (even white women) until suffrage... in case you dont know ... maybe you should research current events in Ireland with the IRA... AND i'm not cancelling out racism... trust me it is something that bothers me... but you seem to be defending it as long as its not toward someone with color... DO SOME RESEARCH and get back to me when you have something useful to say Do some research on what? What on earth is your point? lil brown bat ....... ABE LINCOLN .... in case you didnt know was white and died for a great cause as did many of my ancestors who fought in that war... so F you and i dont owe u anything ... sweep that mess up Well, since you're a fan of research and history in general, no doubt you know that the military draft first occurred in the Civil War, and a great many of the whites who "died for a great cause" in that war had no choice about being there. Now, your ancestors may have all been volunteers, and they may have been there for the sole purpose of fighting for emancipation -- which would certainly have made them quite exceptional -- but I'm afraid I don't feel that that confers any special merit on you. Nor do I feel that the descendant of a white slaveholder who fought for the Confederacy for the sole purpose of preserving slavery is blameworthy. We inherit neither the merit nor the blame of those who came before us -- only the consequences of their actions. That's a distinction that some find too subtle, but it seems pretty plain to me.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 03:36 PM on April 21

I am very passionate about this issue... Which issue is that? It's obviously not the topic of the thread.

posted by BoKnows at 03:38 PM on April 21

I understand.... however I also have Italian & Native American ancestors... but I have white skin... so I guess thats all that matters right? is the actual color of my skin... well hmmmm my sister is married to a black man they have 3 kids 2 are dark skinned and 1 is white with blue eyes ( yes we are sure they are all the same father ) but as long as his skin is white he should have to "pay" for what happened in history

posted by brandy at 03:41 PM on April 21

BoKnows... Th issue is that it does not matter if its on a tee shirt or coming out of someones mouth ... its wrong... it also doesnt matter WHO is being discriminated against... its wrong

posted by brandy at 03:43 PM on April 21

Fukudome doesn't find racist T-shirts in Wrigleyville funny ...........and neither do I

posted by brandy at 03:46 PM on April 21

You know what's wrong? KFC Chicken Bowls. What. The Fuck. That shit is just... wrong. I would suggest that this isn't akin to the injustice that is the Native American debate. This is ethnic humor that is, well, just really fucking bad. As far as I'm concerned, the thing that is most notable about "horry cow" is people honestly, just don't seem to consider it within it's context - neither the horrible unwashed masses who don't see the 'big deal' in something so horribly mocking and unoriginal (and frankly - not funny enough), nor those suggesting it's another feather in the cap of American ignorance and arrogance. Bad t-shirt. Add it to the list.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 03:54 PM on April 21

WeedyMcSmokey ( great name by the way ) im a huge advocate for legalization... anyhow back on the subject..... I freakin LOVE KFC chicken bowls... I have created my own recipe and make them at home for my husband and our 3 boys.... they (except the baby) love them too ..... BUT i do agree it's a bad t-shirt... GET rid of it.... or hold onto one (it may be worth money someday) that is what really fuels earth isnt it?

posted by brandy at 04:07 PM on April 21

brandy, You have told us about your son, his friend, your baby, salvery, apartheid (since the start of time-your words), the civil war, your pitbull, the civil war again, then you gave an FU to lbb, now we're hearing about your sister's family. Now, you're gonna tie it all together using the title of the article. You're giving a lot of credit to an idiotic T-shirt vendor from Chicago.

posted by BoKnows at 04:07 PM on April 21

hmmm I obviously have made you read EVERY post I've written.. and its all true... maybe some people cant handle it because I'm not a scarred little white girl agreeing that my family should suffer due to historic events... ISNT RACISM the topic? duh...

posted by brandy at 04:12 PM on April 21

OOOOOOH maybe racism is just wrong at wrigley field....

posted by brandy at 04:12 PM on April 21

I read every post, please don't think that I'm glued to the monitor waiting for yours. ISNT RACISM the topic? Yep. The racism that Cub fans are showing to their star Japanese player that they just spent $48 million on. Not your life story coupled with an American History lesson.

posted by BoKnows at 04:23 PM on April 21

Sorry, that was rude of me. I just think that the idiot selling the shirts is getting to much credit for his actions. Yeah, it's offensive, but it's been handled by the Cubs organization. I'll say it again.... The image feeds not only ugly, arrogant and ignorant Japanese stereotypes, but also the stereotype of the obnoxious, profane, drunken, booing, garbage-throwing Cubs fan. ...and walk away.

posted by BoKnows at 04:32 PM on April 21

ok Bo .... im the only one who has personal feelings toward this topic... its ALL good... aren't personal experiences what makes a discussion interesting and debatable? otherwise it wouldnt be a discussion , it would be an article... since I'm a New Yorker and a Yankees fan maybe i shouldnt even care (but I do) .. I dont want to see any person feeling bad ... especially due to ignorance ... (even if the Cubs only paid 4 million or got him on a loan for that matter)

posted by brandy at 04:35 PM on April 21

Weedy, you want to know what's really wrong? People who don't use complete sentences. You know, people who do this ........... instead of completing a thought, and starting a sentence, with, like, you know, a capital letter at the beginning of the first word in the sentence and a period at the end of a statement or expression of thought. Oh, and brand new members telling long time respected members our our community to F you is really really wrong.

posted by tommytrump at 04:37 PM on April 21

hey tommy ........ u wanna have a spelling & grammar contest.. or an IQ test??? i am more than sure i'd win .............. and Bo... would you let him know the topic of this discussion is the t-shirt?

posted by brandy at 04:46 PM on April 21

KFC Chicken Bowls. What. The Fuck. That shit is just... wrong. Failure pile in a sadness bowl.

posted by goddam at 04:46 PM on April 21

You know what's wrong? KFC Chicken Bowls. What. The Fuck. That shit is just... wrong. Weedy, have you tried the one with brown gravy? It makes no sense to me why it is so good, but damn is it good. I would never imagine that combination of crap would be so good, but combined it just comes together. This topic seems to belong in this thread as much as other topics being discussed.

posted by hawkguy at 04:55 PM on April 21

i invented the KFC chicken bowl during the Civil War when my son was staying with my sister's family.... i was making lunch for my baby and arguing about apartheid..... I got so angry I dropped the corn, chicken, mashed potatoes, and gravy on the floor..... I had to scoop it into a bowl seconds before the pit bull got it..... and as i sat there on the floor feeding the pit bull and the baby, I couldn't help but wonder if that racist Cubs t-shirt had prolonged the Civil War and slavery.... oh, and FU lbb.....

posted by irunfromclones at 06:23 PM on April 21

goddam: Failure pile in a sadness bowl. That was great. Thank you, goddam. hawkguy: Weedy, have you tried the one with brown gravy? It makes no sense to me why it is so good, but damn is it good. I would never imagine that combination of crap would be so good, but combined it just comes together. Well, it ain't my thing (the closest I've ever come to this kind of experience is poutine, and I only did it to be able to say I'd done it, and I only got three bites into it and just had to stop), but you can't deny the appeal. KFC didn't invent it either -- they just have the most successful current mass-marketed version. Before they jumped on the bandwagon, though, there was the garbage plate at Nick Tahou's in Rochester, New York. I never had that pleasure, either, but my brother was a second-shifter at the airport and told me stories of the late night crowd at Nick Tahou's. One night a wino got a garbage plate, ate about half, and then vomited the first half of the garbage plate plus probably a quart of cheap wine onto the second half of the garbage plate...then sat there looking at it, fork still in hand. I keep that story in the back of my mind to prevent me from even thinking about going there with any goddamn KFC version of the garbage plate. oh, and FU, clones...no Famous Bowl for you!

posted by lil_brown_bat at 06:33 PM on April 21

u sound like a bunch of scarred little white boys trying to be liked and accepted.... I really pity you... maybe someday all of your work will pay off and you'll be loved by all skin colors and eye shapes... You're not hurting anyone but yourselves with your ignorance. I joined this site because Im a sports fan, got into a discussion that is interesting and tried to share life experience. I dont argue the fact that some groups of people have it harder but I dont accept racism in any form. Apparently people on this site are ok with racism as long as its toward people who have white skin. Scarred ass white folks... thats why other skin colors have so much to say to people who are too scarred to defend themselves.... (and that came from my best friend.. whose skin is not white) weakness .... gotta love it!

posted by brandy at 07:47 PM on April 21

Scarred ass white folks... I've got an interesting scar on my right knee that was caused by a really mean black fly...none on my ass though. Anyone want to take bets on being called "race traitors" within the next half dozen comments?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:06 PM on April 21

seriously?

posted by joeyc at 08:25 PM on April 21

u sound like a bunch of scarred little white boys trying to be liked and accepted Shit, I know I've heard that one before. On this site none the less.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 08:37 PM on April 21

Maybe if some people actually spent more time associating with people of different backgrounds and ethnicities they would not fear them. I don't discriminate against any person. End of story. Is my spelling and grammar correct? I hope so because I don't want my view to be judged by that. If it is........... OH WELL The t-shirt is in bad taste. If there is a God, I have to believe that we are all created equal. I am the one who, like some others who have posted, would say "Hey, that's real F'd up." No matter what, handicapped,fat,different racially, whatever it is I dont think you should make someone feel bad by maliously making fun of them.

posted by brandy at 09:04 PM on April 21

And for those who have paid attention to my posts from the beginning..My sons friend who made that comment the other day has aplogized and I truly believe he understands why I was hurt by it. He apologized the next day and has been over severals times since. Foregiveness. I can't make time rewind. All I can do is live right. I guess it's too much to expect the same from others because 1/12 of my genetic make up could have been racist white people in america.

posted by brandy at 09:15 PM on April 21

Brandy, you're ruining your reputation as a fine girl.

posted by wfrazerjr at 10:14 PM on April 21

u sound like a bunch of scarred little white boys trying to be liked and accepted I take great offense to this. I am 5'10" and weigh 220 lbs. of brick shit house. I think girthy would be a much better description than little.

posted by HATER 187 at 11:21 PM on April 21

My 15 yr old is 6'1" at 235 lbs, he's still my "little" baby... and always will be.

posted by brandy at 12:25 AM on April 22

Fraze, that is my second favorite comment on SpoFi ever. Second only to Crafty's diatribe in the locker room from a few years back.

posted by hawkguy at 07:19 AM on April 22

Brandy, you're ruining your reputation as a fine girl. Yeah, but can you imagine what a good wife she would be?

posted by dyams at 07:41 AM on April 22

WTF is going on around here?

posted by BornIcon at 08:08 AM on April 22

WTF is going on around here? It's in reference to this.

posted by dyams at 08:13 AM on April 22

seriously? What, the black fly? Yeah, it's a true story. Alcohol and a whitewater kayak were also involved, as was Adolph's meat tenderizer (not in that order), so I guess it's not entirely a black fly scar, but a black fly started it.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:22 AM on April 22

WTF is going on around here? If you don't know, you're about to have your mind blown: Looking Glass, Brandy, You're a Fine Girl. the garbage plate at Nick Tahou's in Rochester, New York . . . stories of the late night crowd at Nick Tahou's Nick's is no longer open all-night, which is a goddamn shame since most of my best memories from college happened there.

  • Jimmy the Greek, the counterman who kept a shotgun under the counter.
  • Jimmy chasing my friend out the door for stealing the salt
  • Mayor Curley and I leaving there around 5 am and being accosted by an ancient prostitute with a cup of coffee in her hand. She climbed into the car we had borrowed from a friend who'd passed out and immediately spilt her coffee when we tried to remove her. She refused to leave when I said we were gay, responding, "Let's see you kiss him."
Semi-back on topic, Nick's was always a reminder about the health of racism in America as the two seating sections were clearly assigned. You can say it was locals in one and college kids in the other, but it looked pretty black and white to me. I'm still trying to re-create the home fries.

posted by yerfatma at 08:24 AM on April 22

Good lord! I leave for a few days and things fall apart. Ok, I'll be the race traitor. I am a white boy from a tiny little crappy town in Southern Indiana. this town is so white, that when the high school basketball team in the town next to ours got a black player, it made the front page of the news paper. the fact is that racism exists in all forms, and against all ethnicities, religions, sexual orientations, and frankly some groups that have nothing to do with any of those things. you can justify anything (in your own mind) by saying "he does it why can't I?" My 6 year old does that all the time. You can be offended that other people are offended. You can react in a hundred different ways to racism, and a thousand ways to the reactions of others. In the end though, the only reaction that does any good is a combination of education and forgiveness. They people who like these shirts don't want to hear your point, but if you approach with forgiveness instead of hostility, you might reach the person standing within ear shot, and hadn't considered the racist point of the shirt. Ultimately, the offenders, and their descendants can't fix the racial divide in this country. I have made this point on other posts: forgiveness is in the hands of the offended. No price I could ever pay, would make up for the dehumanizing treatment that black (and Chinese and Irish) people have received in our country's history. No price I could ever pay would give the land and the dignity back to the Native Americans. Even if retributions were paid, No amount would be enough, because you cant quantify the value of human suffering or dignity. So we are left with the option for me and the enlightened members of my race to say that what our ancestors did was reprehensible. I am not ashamed of my race, but i am ashamed of any ancestors who might have participated in slavery, or the bigotry that has followed. I am ashamed of any advantage or preferential treatment that I might have received as a result of my race. And all that is left is to ask, on behalf of my race, that those who were wronged by my ancestors to forgive the insurmountable debt that falls from our fathers to us. Of course this to, is a failed effort, because no group of people thinks with one mind. But if one by one, white people accept the complicity of their ancestors and acknowledge the debt that falls to them, and if one by one all who were oppressed are willing to put aside their justified grievances, maybe as a generation, we can take the next step toward racial harmony. I really didn't mean to go off on a diatribe about race. so to pull us back on topic: Cubs suck anyway, go Cards!!!

posted by elijahin24 at 08:30 AM on April 22

It's in reference to this. Nice, dyams. Good stuff. If you don't know, you're about to have your mind blown: Looking Glass, Brandy, You're a Fine Girl. I actually have that record. Picked up some sweet samples from that song.

posted by BornIcon at 08:37 AM on April 22

Wow, Nick Tahou's deserves a spot on Diners, Drive-Ins and Dives from the Food Network. It sounds awesome! I could dig a garbage plate this morning.

posted by hawkguy at 08:51 AM on April 22

Just to throw a little crap into the game... The prevailing sentiment among Union soldiers during the Civil War was that the Union must be restored. In the main, they were not particularly big on freedom for blacks. As it turned out, restoring the Union meant an end to slavery; there could have been no other possible outcome. As for racism and bigotry in the rest of the world, ask Fukudome-san about the treatment of Koreans in Japan today, or particularly the treatment of Koreans in Korea by the Japanese prior to World War 2. It's something that most Japanese do not talk about. Yerfatma, it sounds like you have lived a dissolute and degenerate life. I minored in alcohol consumption while in college. Welcome to the club.

posted by Howard_T at 09:22 AM on April 22

Howard, they now call it Alcohology. I have a Ph.D.

posted by elijahin24 at 09:30 AM on April 22

Jimmy chasing my friend out the door for stealing the salt We always went to the more tame Lyell Ave. Tahou's since it was closer. We routinely stockpiled our supply of Frank's Red Hot from there. I'm glad we didn't try it on our few treks to the downtown location. I'm still trying to re-create the home fries. Good luck with that. I'd love to be able to make the hot sauce, but something tells me that whatever is in that stuff is better left unspoken.

posted by goddam at 09:44 AM on April 22

Good lord! I leave for a few days and things fall apart I agree with you 100%. Thank you. However I'm in NY and things are different here, as you can imagine. AND HowardT also has some really good points, it's not just America and Americans, it's the world.... I for one dont have too many ancestors that were actually in America (well my mom is 1/2 native american. My grandparents on my fathers side came from Italy. So if your ancestors were here and slave owners and you want to take the blame go ahead. I am not. The point Ive been trying to make is that just because my skin is white, it is assumed that my family were slave owners. They werent... By the way I am sooo sure the people in your Indiana town arent complaining that Freddy Keiaho is playing for the Colts.... PS there is no such thing a reverse racism... racism is racism...

posted by brandy at 10:37 AM on April 22

I'd love to be able to make the hot sauce, but something tells me that whatever is in that stuff is better left unspoken. Word. I've never seen anything that looked quite like it before or since. Maybe if you took grape Nerds and left them out in the sun (which would obviously require you to leave Rochester to find some sun).

posted by yerfatma at 10:44 AM on April 22

I know I talk tooo much(or type what ever) but I want to say one more thing.... I have always been a huge fan of Bernard Hopkins since he was a jail fighter. I could not believe when on National TV he said "I'll never get beat by a white person" I am still just pissed about that. If Calzaghe would have said that he would never let a black guy beat him.... OH MY all hell would have broke loose. Just like if my son was at his friends house and said that black babies creep him out (which I know he never would) I would have been on the news. It goes both ways. It's wrong no matter what. AND I KNOW IM A FINE GIRL.... thats been my name for over 30 years (I've heard a million times)

posted by brandy at 10:45 AM on April 22

Brandy, I'm not taking the blame. I didn't do it. I am accepting the fact that it was people of my race who committed the sins of slavery. By the way, slavery wasn't the only sin committed against minorities. They have been denied the right to vote. They have been discriminated against for everything from jobs and promotions to seats in a restaurant, and that didn't end with the civil war. Some of those wrongs have happened in the time its taken me to type this, so don't think that because your family wasn't on the mayflower that your family is exempt from some of the blame. Maybe your family has fought for civil rights all the way to the roots of your family tree, but there aren't many who can say that. And accepting responsibility is not the same as accepting blame. Fighting the realities of our nations history isn't going to change it. It will only spread the gap between the sides.

posted by elijahin24 at 11:16 AM on April 22

I have always been a huge fan of Bernard Hopkins since he was a jail fighter. Who televises that?

posted by yerfatma at 11:28 AM on April 22

I couldnt agree more. I guess the way Im saying things isnt coming out right. It makes me cringe to think of the treatment people have received in the past and present. Putting all people with white skin in one race doesnt make sense to me though. I have been accused of being a racist in the past but only by white people saying i was racist against white people. Coincidently by my white neighbors from Indiana because they only see black people coming to my home. I actually tend to get along better with black people. I feel awful about what they have gone through. I think since my children are getting older and Im seeing things like I've referred to in earlier posts that I don't want my children to feel guilty either.. Remember empathy and sympathy are different. I never taught them racism and it doesnt have a place in my home.

posted by brandy at 11:32 AM on April 22

Who televises that? It was on several stations including HBO..

posted by brandy at 11:33 AM on April 22

I can tell you anything about Bernard Hopkins since he was a jail fighter.. its true... I have always thought his style of fighting was extraordinary, and still do. I love the fact that he came from crime and made something of himself. It takes great intelligence to be a great fighter like him. But the comment was not right. So I am glad Joe Calzaghe won.

posted by brandy at 11:37 AM on April 22

Im a real sports fan and always have been ... I dont just pay attention to what I see in the paper.. I actually do research anything that interests me.. Maybe you should too.

posted by brandy at 11:49 AM on April 22

FYI ... just to let you know exactly how accepting I am.... I (a yankees fans) have been to Fenway several times to cheer for Boston..... One year we came early and they let my son run the bases...

posted by brandy at 11:52 AM on April 22

sorry I know people dont want to hear "my life story" SO this will be my last post..... Getting rid of the t-shirt is just a small step toward a huge goal in America..........

posted by brandy at 11:58 AM on April 22

Ok, I've got a headache.

posted by jerseygirl at 12:17 PM on April 22

I have always been a huge fan of Bernard Hopkins since he was a jail fighter I think you got B-Hop mixed up with Wesley Snipes.

posted by BornIcon at 12:29 PM on April 22

But the real story of Bernard Hopkins began years ago on the tough streets of Northern Philadelphia, where a young man did what he felt he needed to do survive in the face of daily life. Unfortunately, the decisions the young Hopkins made led him to Graterford State Penitentiary at the age of 17. Determined to not let this setback define him, Hopkins boxed while in prison, hoping to get his chance to turn his life around. That chance came in 1988, when Hopkins, 23, was released after 56 months. He turned pro later that year, but lost a four round decision to Clinton Mitchell on October 11, 1988. Discouraged, Hopkins went back to his day job working at a local hotel, and didn't fight again until February 22, 1990, when he scored his first professional win with a decision over Greg Paige. http://www.hbo.com/boxing/fighters/hopkins_bernard/bio.html

posted by brandy at 01:04 PM on April 22

Its so funny that a woman has to tell you history of athletes....

posted by brandy at 01:05 PM on April 22

Its so funny that a woman has to tell you history of athletes.... Why?

posted by jerseygirl at 01:06 PM on April 22

damn I said I wasnt going to post again...

posted by brandy at 01:06 PM on April 22

Because these guys on this site know everything... or at least have an arguement for everything (no matter if it makes sense)

posted by brandy at 01:08 PM on April 22

sorry I know people dont want to hear "my life story" SO this will be my last post..... Why is it that people never actually mean this when they say it? Kind of like the people that get pissed off at a retail location and say they are never shopping there again. They always come back, usually with the same attitude.

posted by hawkguy at 01:13 PM on April 22

Two observations, brandy: 1. Most posters on this site, and in this thread, have nicknames that don't indicate gender one way or the other. 2. Each forum has its own little ways, only some of which are (or can be) set forth in site rules or guidelines. It's a standard bit of internet advice, dating back to the start of usenet, to "read before posting" to learn how things are done on that forum. You joined this site two days ago and started posting comments immediately. Some of your comments have gone over like the proverbial lead balloon. You don't seem to understand why; in fact, if I had to guess, I'd say you probably feel pretty misunderstood and hard done by. This could have been avoided if you'd hung back a bit, read the guidelines, or maybe just taken a little more time to compose your thoughts before posting (the "oh yeah, well..." "and another thing" "and furthermore" series of rapid-fire comments above, for example, really would have been better done as one post in which you pulled your thoughts together). That's an example of what I meant when I said that each internet forum has its little ways: SportsFilter, more than most, respects good writing (or at least writing over which the writer has taken some care and pains) and deplores AOLisms like the use of "u" instead of "you". It's not too late to start doing those things -- the choice is up to you.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:26 PM on April 22

...or species, right, I should have said. Good catch. (and I am not actually a myotis lucifugus, in case anyone was wondering)

posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:46 PM on April 22

Sorry accidentally deleted. Was preoccupied with email from overseas sister company that popped up and irritated me. Before LBB's last comment, I said: "Yeah, and Hawkguy isn't actually a hawk, just so you know."

posted by jerseygirl at 02:06 PM on April 22

What the fuck? He told me he knew Birdman and everything.

posted by yerfatma at 02:36 PM on April 22

No, that was the guy who got kicked off the Hornets a few years back.

posted by hawkguy at 02:41 PM on April 22

Just for you lil brown bat (assuming you mean little myotis lucifugus) because lil seems like an AOLism to me: I donít normally use chat servers except for work therefore Iím not too familiar with the ďAOLismsĒ. I can however tell you how the information gets from my pc to the internet and how the networks operate. So I really appreciate your ďlessonĒ but I maintain, troubleshoot and repair the largest network in America, I didnít need the lesson. I joined this site as a sports fan and mother of 3 boys who likes to stay current on things I can discuss with my boys. In case anyone is interested I also play and am a fan of video games. Anyone who wants to go against me at COD4, fight night, madden ECTÖ my name is brandy187 on the PS3 network. I donít usually speak in full sentences nor do I always use proper English. I didnít realize that on this site you needed a degree in English to join a discussion. Especially since, to me, a discussion (even online) is talking to someone and not a properly written report. So for that I apologize. I, from our posts so far I can guess that you have never had any real experiences with people of Ethnic backgrounds but you want to be such a great and loving person. Like I said before maybe all of your thoughts and opinions will some day earn you respect from other types of people. But I doubt it because thoughts and actions are different things. Maybe your children can be frightened to stand up for themselves and their families, mine will not. They will always respect people no matter where they come from. Thank You

posted by brandy at 03:21 PM on April 22

Please stop telling us everything you know and show us in full sentences with some sort of logical flow to them. You don't need a degree in anything, you just need a point and the ability to express it in a way that non-autistics could grasp.

posted by yerfatma at 03:33 PM on April 22

That sounded like a discriminatory comment about people who have autism. I thought my last post was pretty much grammatically correct. You make no sense. "Please stop telling us everything you know and show us in full sentences with some sort of logical flow to them"

posted by brandy at 03:39 PM on April 22

Let me know how this works out. I'm dying to know.

posted by yerfatma at 03:40 PM on April 22

I'm guessing not well. It is fun to watch, though.

posted by hawkguy at 03:45 PM on April 22

Says the guy who is a hawk, or are you a hawk who is a guy? I'm so confused!

posted by tommytrump at 04:01 PM on April 22

Actually, it stopped being fun a while back. Some people will get pissed off at you if you tell them their fly's open or they've got spinach on their teeth, but you can't in good conscience just let them walk down the street like that without saying something*. Effort made. The End. *(or can you?)

posted by lil_brown_bat at 04:02 PM on April 22

If you could see me, you definitely would not confuse me for a bird. Well, maybe a slightly overweight, clumsy bird who tends to like beer a little too much. But I also don't stand on a street corner selling cheaply-made knock-off products to people. So I'm not that kind of hawkguy either. It's all a ruse.

posted by hawkguy at 04:10 PM on April 22

sorry SO this will be my last post..... Except for the six more posts you added in the thread in the next 3 hours and 41minutes.

posted by tommytrump at 04:19 PM on April 22

you just need a point and the ability to express it in a way that non-autistics could grasp. Yerfatma, I HAVE to agree with Brandy on this one. I have family members who are autistic, and I'm offended by this. Seriously. And it's somewhat ironic given the FPP. If you don't agree, just substitute any ethnic group for autistic and I hope you'll see what I mean. Now having stuck my big nose in the fight, Brandy, I have to tell you that the sportsfilter community has a certain way of doing things. That's all LBB was trying to say. You can like it, hate it, be indifferent about it. But if you choose to post you're gonna be held to the same standards as everyone else. No one's telling you to go away. Many of us (myself included) have flamed out as newbies, only to find the site a great place to discuss sports.

posted by cjets at 04:48 PM on April 22

Since when the hell were we talking about sports? Wow, I'm sorry I missed this love-fest. I could have really alienated myself quite decently. I wonder why Brandy decided to let you guys get her all riled up? Anyhooz, that FU guy in Chicago ought to ask for a percentage of those racist shirts. I'd be pissed too if someone mistook Harry Caray for a member of my race. Oh, wait a sec. Nevermind.

posted by THX-1138 at 05:51 PM on April 22

So wait, is he a hawk or is he a drunk guy in a hawk suit trying to sell me knockoff Kate Spade sunglasses?

posted by jerseygirl at 07:07 PM on April 22

Is there where I get information on reaching Birdman? I have a marketing opportunity for him and this was the first hit on the Google search.

posted by wfrazerjr at 07:14 PM on April 22

Maybe he's Foghorn Leghorn.

posted by tommytrump at 07:15 PM on April 22

Brandy and fellow Sportfi contributitors. Check Please!

posted by giveuptheghost at 07:28 PM on April 22

I was amazed when I saw this thread had picked up 106 posts since my last visit, but now I know why: Brandy: 76 16,000 Other Spofites: 30

posted by The_Black_Hand at 07:45 PM on April 22

Yerfatma, I HAVE to agree with Brandy on this one. I have family members who are autistic, and I'm offended by this. Seriously. Sorry. However, I stand by it: her comments in this thread, taken in their entirety, seem to have an internal logic and consistency that's completely impenetrable to me.

posted by yerfatma at 07:47 PM on April 22

Has there ever been a racist thread that has ended well?

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 08:08 PM on April 22

A racist thread, probably not. But we have had a few threads, IIRC, on the subject of racism -- specifically the mascot issue -- that seemed to go pretty well.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:12 PM on April 22

her comments in this thread, taken in their entirety, seem to have an internal logic and consistency that's completely impenetrable to me. If you want to bash her comments, that's fine with me. In fact, I would agree that her comments need correcting. It's your use of the word autistic to describe her comments that I find offensive (troubling, unnecessary, etc.) and incorrect. Children and adults who struggle with the STIGMA of being autistic aren't helped by your casual use of the word to describe a poster you have issues with. Maybe I'm being hypersensitive, but I have family members who don't want to tell the world that their child is autistic because of that stigma, so I feel I've got to say something when I see a comment like that.

posted by cjets at 08:23 PM on April 22

Sorry. However, I stand by it: her comments in this thread, taken in their entirety, seem to have an internal logic and consistency that's completely impenetrable to me. I donít understand what you donít get. All Iím saying is that racism also happens to white people. I have an idea why donít we go to china town in NYC and let a group of Chinese people do what the will with Fukudome. I mean since the Japanese killed more Chinese people than Jews were killed during WW2. Come on now that would be fair right? By the way the numbers are a little offÖ Iíve made about 30 comments and the others are from 16000 other SPOFITESÖ. Thanks for counting thoughÖ. I donít have a problem when something is meant to be a joke for example my best friend is always calling me ďwhite girlĒ I donít get offended by that. I love to associate with different types of people and personalities from all over the world. Iím not talking about jokes or humor. I am talking about malicious comments that are intended to be hurtful. This is exactly why white folks are made fun of by other groups. Weak and will defend someone else before yourself and your family.

posted by brandy at 10:16 PM on April 22

Iím with the blacks and Latinos, if a murderer comes in shooting, Iím running with themÖ. The dumb white folks can stay and try to fight him off. And by the way... when you get wet, you smell like a wet dog. I however smell like fruity shampoo but then again Iím with the ethnic groups, you guys(white skinned people) ARE too gullible for me.

posted by brandy at 10:22 PM on April 22

Wow. That's really a statement. You certainly did say that. I for one, will have to concede that you have commented. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

posted by THX-1138 at 10:32 PM on April 22

This is exactly why white folks are made fun of by other groups. I thought it was 'cause their babies were so f-n creepy.

posted by tselson at 10:47 PM on April 22

This is exactly why white folks are made fun of by other groups. Horry kow!! (did I just officially kill this thread?)

posted by NoMich at 10:59 PM on April 22

Wow, I don't know what happened here. I go away for a few days and this train wreck appears. brandy you certainly have a propensity for the absurd which I find most disconcerting. I realize laughter is an excellent rebuttal for relieving the anxiety of racial discourse but you've taken cognitive absurdities to a whole different level I never imagined possible. It reminds me of part of James Heckman's critique of the Bell Curve.

posted by skydivedad at 11:55 PM on April 22

Wow, I don't know what happened here. I go away for a few days and this train wreck appears. brandy you certainly have a propensity for the absurd which I find most disconcerting. I realize laughter is an excellent rebuttal for relieving the anxiety of racial discourse but you've taken cognitive absurdities to a whole different level I never imagined possible. It reminds me of part of James Heckman's critique of the Bell Curve. You know what I find to be most disconcerting? Your use of the vocab you learned to pass you SAT's. By no means am I a believer in the therories presented in the Bell Curve but take it however you want to. I'm not really making any jokes. So the when one of your children (skydivedad) gets put down and made to feel like shit only because of their skin color you tell them "it's ok you HAVE to accept it" because your white you should just take whatever people say to you. By the way.... most black people and latinos that I know make fun of stupid white boys risking their lives for the fun of skydiving... Thats just an FYI.. Again Im with them on this one...

posted by brandy at 12:14 AM on April 23

Horry kow!! (did I just officially kill this thread?) If only. Brandy, way to completely generalize and stereotype at least three different races, thereby totally taking away any credibility you were trying to achieve. You are just trolling at this point.

posted by THX-1138 at 01:12 AM on April 23

Im sorry that you're not understanding my sarcasm. I'm trying to make a point. It's not me who is defending this type of "generalizing" I'm just throwing out some examples....

posted by brandy at 06:36 AM on April 23

Children and adults who struggle with the STIGMA of being autistic aren't helped by your casual use of the word to describe a poster you have issues with. I refuse to give up metaphor, to give up language for fear someone, somewhere will be offended. I have a close relative dealing with cancer right now. Does this mean the phrase "clubhouse cancer" should be banned from the site for fear of stigmatizing or upsetting someone? It makes me think of George Carlin on shell shock.

"And I've noticed Americans have a problem with reality; they prefer to avoid the truth and not look it in the eye. I think it's one of the consequences of being fat and prosperous and too comfortable. So, naturally, as time has passed, and we've grown fatter and more prosperous, the problem has gotten worse."

posted by yerfatma at 06:54 AM on April 23

I, too, vote troll.

posted by hawkguy at 06:55 AM on April 23

37 comments and nary a useful or worthwhile thought in any of them. This thread is now definitely the Fuck You Dome. Enough already.

posted by jerseygirl at 07:03 AM on April 23

Iím with the blacks and Latinos... Sorry to have to be the bearer of bad news brandy but we took a vote and I gotta tell you....your out. I'm only the messenger. Horry kow I wonder if Robert Horry is offended.

posted by BornIcon at 07:05 AM on April 23

Ö.and I do not promote anyone to be fearful. I actually encouraged my son to try sky diving due to his fear of heights. I make them stay clean, shower daily and wear deodorant so they donít smell bad (even if they get wet). And as men I would hope that they would defend themselves and others who are defenseless. Iím sorry but sometimes you have to put things in a way that will offend someone before they can see the point you are trying to make. So I will officially put this thread to rest right now: Itís not right to make malicious comments that are hurtful to anyone, not even white people. If you are a white person and you feel guilty about your heritage maybe you should forgive yourself and others will forgive you.

posted by brandy at 07:08 AM on April 23

.....so, how about them playoffs? Anyone...?

posted by BornIcon at 07:13 AM on April 23

Anyone have a boil or blister they want to talk about?

posted by jerseygirl at 07:14 AM on April 23

hey yerfatma... Im a huge George Carlin fan. I could also send out some of his quotes to prove my point. But I wont. I will leave it with my last statement and one more, get up off your ass and out of your safe homes and help some neighbors in need from different backgrounds. Actions speak louder than words. I'm already accepted and trusted in my community by races that are different than mine. Are you?

posted by brandy at 07:14 AM on April 23

Bishop, I've really missed you.

posted by tommytrump at 07:24 AM on April 23

That's too funny tommy, I was thinking the same damn thing.

posted by BornIcon at 07:58 AM on April 23

Why keep saying you are going away, only then to come back? Quit messing with my emotions already.

posted by hawkguy at 08:38 AM on April 23

Okay, votes on Bishop. I'm going to vote yes because I've voted no before and been wrong.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:57 AM on April 23

If you are a white person and you feel guilty about your heritage maybe you should forgive yourself and others will forgive you. Now men with purple hearts, carry silver guns. And they will kill a man for what his father has done. But what my father did, you know it don't mean shit. I'm not him. - Don't Know When But a Day is Gonna Come, Bright Eyes I have nothing to forgive. I'm not my heritage. Also, it's important to have an emotional song on a trainwreck like this.

posted by dfleming at 09:23 AM on April 23

I have said enough about this thread, too. I am not going to make any more comments on the subject. Except to say that you should be kind to everyone. By being sarcastic. See how it's worked for me?

posted by THX-1138 at 10:44 AM on April 23

And don't forget to get your pets spayed and neutered.

posted by THX-1138 at 10:46 AM on April 23

I refuse to give up metaphor, to give up language for fear someone, somewhere will be offended. I have a close relative dealing with cancer right now. Does this mean the phrase "clubhouse cancer" should be banned from the site for fear of stigmatizing or upsetting someone? It makes me think of George Carlin on shell shock. How about because your metaphor is INCORRECT? I hate to shout but your stubborness on this issue ASTOUNDS me. You are equating Autism with an internal logic and consistency that's completely impenetrable to me. That's just wrong. People with autism often display hyper control of their environment so if there are people with Autism or Asperger's on this site (welcome, by the way), chances are that their posts are letter perfect, completely unlike the post you were bashing. And where do you draw the line? Why not call the comment RETARDED or say the poster has DOWN SYNDROME or that she has CEREBRAL PALSY? Because it's offensive! That's why. And why should autism be any different? I get slammed on this site for using the term "thug" and calling people autistic is OK? Give me a fucking break. And your use of clubhouse cancer just doesn't wash. Autism has a real stigma attached that doesn't need people, who don't understand what autism is, ignorantly throwing the expression around. You have an excellent command of the english language yerfatma. There's no reason for you to fight to hold onto a word that is not only offensive but simply incorrect .

posted by cjets at 11:29 AM on April 23

I have an autistic granddaughter. It's been very difficult to watch her and my daughter struggle and not be able to somehow make it better. Our entire family has had to learn how to interact on a very different level. An unexpected benefit is that we have also discovered a whole new level of caring for and loving each other. I didn't take offense at yerfatma's comment because I didn't think it was malicious or mean-spirited. If I can look at the worst thing in my life and still see a bit of humor, then I feel like I have gained some measure of victory over it.

posted by irunfromclones at 01:04 PM on April 23

You are equating Autism with an internal logic and consistency that's completely impenetrable to me. Yes. As opposed to what, suggesting people with autism are broken or have nothing to contribute? There was a fantastic post on Metafilter about autism and comments there echo what I was trying to get across, that there could be reams of truth in what's being said and I just can't see it because my perceptions and mind work differently. From the author in that post:

"We do have ways of communicating with things around us that are mutually comprehensible for many of us (not all of us, and not all the same things are comprehensible, there seem to be groupings in that regard). Our interests and our reactions are not random, purposeless, or useless, and are certainly not ugly things to be hidden away or trained out of."

posted by yerfatma at 01:13 PM on April 23

Here's your original post: Please stop telling us everything you know and show us in full sentences with some sort of logical flow to them. You don't need a degree in anything, you just need a point and the ability to express it in a way that non-autistics could grasp. Whether you meant it or not, it came out in a snide, snarky way, not the way you now say you meant it, in your words: that there could be reams of truth in what's being said and I just can't see it because my perceptions and mind work differently. If you had said the second more thoughtful comment, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Yes. As opposed to what, suggesting people with autism are broken or have nothing to contribute? No, I think people with Autism have tons to contribute. But using the term, as you did, in what seems to be a cheap and lazy way to insult another poster doesn't help their cause. It adds to the stigma which could prevent people with autism from reaching their full potential. And, by the way, your George Carlin link (the transition from using "shell shock" to 'post traumatic stress disorder.") is not on point. Was there a time when everyone used autistic to describe bad posts, and now we need different language to do so, as Carlin says about shell shock? There was a time when retarded was a common insult. It now, thankfully, is used much much less, except in its original clinical sense. Do you think Carlin is complaining about that (or complaining about using autism as an insult) as well? Autism or Autism spectrum disorder should used when appropriate. I didn't know that freedom of speech meant the right to call another post "autistic." I didn't take offense at yerfatma's comment because I didn't think it was malicious or mean-spirited. If I can look at the worst thing in my life and still see a bit of humor, then I feel like I have gained some measure of victory over it. Then we'll agree to disagree. It seemed to me that it was used to insult the post and the poster. And seriously, you thought it was a humorous comment? Even if I was to be convinced of Yerfatma's intent as he now explains it, it still doesn't make the comment humorous.

posted by cjets at 01:48 PM on April 23

Was there a time when everyone used autistic to describe bad posts, and now we need different language to do so, as Carlin says about shell shock? When you spend your time trying to defang words that describe conditions you are doing nothing except making yourself feel better. It does nothing for the person actually suffering. I yield. Autism or Autism spectrum disorder should used when appropriate. Ok. I can see where that would make a huge difference in everyone's life. Here's your original post . . . If you had said the second more thoughtful comment, we wouldn't be having this conversation So me trying to clarify my position with a "more thoughtful comment" leads to you bringing back up my previous comment to hash that again instead of responding to anything in the comment you deem worthy of this forum. Why? If you are looking for an apology, find someone else to browbeat.

posted by yerfatma at 02:05 PM on April 23

KUMBAYA MY LORD............

posted by BornIcon at 02:24 PM on April 23

Didn't this thread starn out being about a sport? This is surreal. (And BI, you can't yell the lyrics to Kumbaya. It defeats the purpose!)

posted by hawkguy at 02:41 PM on April 23

I have a tendacy of singing out loud (not very good, mind you) so I figured, what the hell?!!?

posted by BornIcon at 02:48 PM on April 23

When you spend your time trying to defang words that describe conditions you are doing nothing except making yourself feel better. It does nothing for the person actually suffering. I yield. This has nothing to do with making me feel better. I'm trying to defend a group of people that need defending from an otherwise intelligent person who should know better. You think it's easy as the kid with autism in grade school? You think that your comments are helping? I'm trying to defang the stigma of autism. You're contributing to it. So me trying to clarify my position with a "more thoughtful comment" leads to you bringing back up my previous comment to hash that again instead of responding to anything in the comment you deem worthy of this forum. Why? If you are looking for an apology, find someone else to browbeat. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, that you weren't trying to make a snide snarky bullshit comment about brandy by saying her post was autistic. Your "more thoughtful comment" would only have been effective if you had said it the first time. But let's cut the bullshit. The reason your "more thoughtful comment " took you 18 hours and fifty posts to come up with is that you were probably desperately googling for some rational reason that you called her autistic that wasn't a stupid insult, instead of just copping to it like a man. Otherwise, your more thoughtful comments and explanation could have been made many posts ago. And I couldn't care less about an apology from you. If you would just stop talking about it, that'd be enough for me. My apologies to the rest of the Spofi community for the train wreck but I'm not going to let anyone insult people with autism.

posted by cjets at 03:05 PM on April 23

I don't know when we switched drinks from brandy to whine, but it's an improvement. I blame that bastard fukudome for getting this whole thing started.

posted by irunfromclones at 03:29 PM on April 23

wasn't there something about OXYMORONs in that same George Carlin show that you referred to earlier yerfatma?

posted by brandy at 03:37 PM on April 23

posted by brandy at 3:33 PM CDT on April 23 posted by brandy at 3:37 PM CDT on April 23 Oh hell. Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the thread.

posted by irunfromclones at 03:54 PM on April 23

sorry SO this will be my last post..... Except for the six more posts you added in the thread in the next 3 hours and 41minutes. I'm sorry, I thought the polls were closed. Brandy has added 14 more posts since her last post, not six. Maybe these were absentee posts?

posted by tommytrump at 04:01 PM on April 23

oh stop now.. please you are hurting my feelings, Its ok im off to my sons track meet so you are safe.

posted by brandy at 04:01 PM on April 23

"more thoughtful comment " took you 18 hours and fifty posts to come up with is that you were probably desperately googling for some rational reason that you called her autistic that wasn't a stupid insult, instead of just copping to it like a man Okley-dokley. I've said any number of awful things, but I tend to own up to them. I don't have a problem with what I wrote and I would write it again. If you want to continue this, my email's in my profile so people can always hold me accountable for what I say. Maybe add yours.

posted by yerfatma at 04:10 PM on April 23

After reading this thread, Laz'arus would have cursed Jesus.

posted by Folkways at 04:34 PM on April 23

Great stuff Folkways.

posted by hawkguy at 04:43 PM on April 23

But let's cut the bullshit. The reason your "more thoughtful comment " took you 18 hours and fifty posts to come up with is that you were probably desperately googling for some rational reason that you called her autistic that wasn't a stupid insult, instead of just copping to it like a man. cjets, I'm not saying you shouldn't feel as you do about the use of the word "autistic". However...I don't think that "18 hours and fifty posts" is a productive way to look at things. yerfatma didn't make any fifty posts, wasn't in line to see who could get in the next comment, and was almost certainly doing other things like eating, sleeping, recreating, watching sports, etc. in those eighteen hours. We do sometimes have a problem here on spofi, where one person really is that into a thread, and they start putting all manner of interpretation on the silence from the other end. Perhaps it would help us all if instead of imagining a chagrined silence/furious spluttering/kicking of the family dog/desperate search of the internet for a comeback, we were to imagine someone eating dinner, doing the laundry, hanging out with friends, or doing any number of things with no thought in mind whatsoever about SportsFilter. It might help take the charge off things. Second, in light of your objection, I found your use of the phrase "copping to it like a man" a bit ironic. Perhaps you meant "a man" as in "an adult", i.e., someone who does the mature and responsible thing. But "like a man" has often also been used by way of favorable contrast with anything female, and just as with yerfatma's use of "autistic", it can be seen as pejorative, suggesting that only males are capable of strength, integrity, courage, and other positive virtues. Something to think about.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 04:43 PM on April 23

Maybe add yours. It's added. And yeah, e-mail does sound like a good idea at this point.

posted by cjets at 04:43 PM on April 23

My last post, I promise. However...I don't think that "18 hours and fifty posts" is a productive way to look at things. yerfatma didn't make any fifty posts, wasn't in line to see who could get in the next comment, and was almost certainly doing other things like eating, sleeping, recreating, watching sports, etc. in those eighteen hours. No doubt he was. To clarify, I meant that 50 posts in the thread itself had been posted. He had only posted three or four in those eighteen hours. But my basic objection still stands, which is that if he had this thoughtful take on autism, then why not share it immediately, why wait 18 hours to share it? It seems like he went through a number of explanations before he came up with one that I described as thoughtful. Second, in light of your objection, I found your use of the phrase "copping to it like a man" a bit ironic. Perhaps you meant "a man" as in "an adult", i.e., someone who does the mature and responsible thing. Fair enough. I did mean "an adult" of either gender. And in the heat of the moment, I used an objectionable phrase. I should have said adult, or other gender neutral phrase. I apologize.

posted by cjets at 04:50 PM on April 23

No apology needed, really -- I was just trying to point out how easy it is to use an expression that can be interpreted as offensive, even if that's not at all how you meant it. This whole thread started out with the subject of an insulting t-shirt that clearly some people thought was good fun and others found offensive and in poor taste, so maybe we are coming full circle. I think yerfatma was trying to use the term "autistic" descriptively, meaning having a communication style that just doesn't work with most people...but just as with the t-shirt, given the charge that's become attached to the word "autistic", it may have lost its usefulness as description outside a clinical context.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 05:02 PM on April 23

For the record. I just would have used 'retarded'. It would have taken far fewer posts to browbeat me into submission. Or perhaps 'fucktarded'. No - that's not nearly witty enough. 'Fucktacular'? (Hmmm. Maybe would have to be 'fucktacularly' since it would be an adverb.) To amend fatty's post: Please stop telling us everything you know and show us in full sentences with some sort of logical flow to them. You don't need a degree in anything, you just need a point and the ability to express it in a way that isn't so fucktacular. Personally, I try not to get too offended by the internets. I also don't wash my hands every time before preparing food. That's YOUR policy. Not mine.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 05:11 PM on April 23

I propose The Nuclear Option. Seconds?

posted by The_Black_Hand at 05:42 PM on April 23

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