04/20/24
July 17, 2007
Poll: Rooting for Bonds Divided by Race: When it comes to rooting for Barry Bonds to become the home run champion, one factor stands out: race. An AP-Ipsos poll released Monday showed 55 percent of minority baseball fans want Bonds to set the record, while only 34 percent of non-Hispanic white baseball fans hope he passes Hank Aaron's record.
posted by commander cody to baseball at 02:45 AM - 84 comments
Didn't Hank Aaron take greenies? I guess that's fair game, then.
posted by charlatan at 04:03 AM on July 17, 2007
I guess I'll jump in quick here. First of all the poll speaks for it's self. It's not really revealing anything we don't already know. I personally don't care either way. I'm not a big baseball fan. That said, CC if it was determined that Aaron took greenies, would he still hold the record "to you"?
posted by Bishop at 04:16 AM on July 17, 2007
There are a couple of things that bother me about this poll. First off, of the 2000 people polled only 825 were baseball fans. How much credence can we give to a baseball poll that asks almost 60 percent of its respondents about something they are not a fan of? Second, why is it that race is such a big issue in this. It's a african-american getting ready to break a record held by a african-american. If Hank Aaron was white, then i could see why it would be a story. I think the real question here is why do more white respondents dislike barry more than the african-american respondents, when, as it was pointed out in the story, they were pulling for aaron to break babe ruth's record? I would be interested in seeing the same break down if the question was if Mark McGwire was getting ready to break aaron's record would they be pulling for him. I think we would find out that it has more to do with steriods and less about race.
posted by jagsnumberone at 04:38 AM on July 17, 2007
Who the hell really cares about this "poll"? It's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of. Everything seems to be about race to people regardless if the two people that have anything to do with this home run record are both black. Bottom line, Barry Bonds will eventually break the record and no one can take that away from him....without actual proof he's done something wrong to taint the record.
posted by BornIcon at 06:16 AM on July 17, 2007
Second, why is it that race is such a big issue in this. There was a big black/white difference in the response to the O.J. trial, too. Maybe blacks are less inclined to believe a black person has been fairly found guilty, given the historic racial disparities in our justice system and things like racial profiling, so they're giving Bonds the benefit of the doubt. I'm not rooting for Bonds, because I believe the steroid allegations, but I do hope he breaks it in San Francisco. If he does it elsewhere and gets booed off the yard, it'll be an even more depressing milestone for baseball.
posted by rcade at 07:13 AM on July 17, 2007
It seems to have slipped my mind...what race is Hank Aaron?
posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:27 AM on July 17, 2007
Barry Bonds is black? He's taking steroids? He's going to break the home run record? People don't like him? Are there anymore breaking stories?
posted by Familyman at 07:42 AM on July 17, 2007
It's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of. I seriously doubt that. People will naturally align along any differentiating features that are readily discernible, i.e., race, gender, etc.. No surprise there, it's called human nature, has always existed and always will.
posted by 1959Giants at 07:55 AM on July 17, 2007
I'm white and I say "go Ken Griffey Jr."
posted by mrjwjohnson at 08:08 AM on July 17, 2007
"First off, of the 2000 people polled only 825 were baseball fans. How much credence can we give to a baseball poll that asks almost 60 percent of its respondents about something they are not a fan of? " Well, it seems to me that if you ask only 2,000 people which makes it a "random" sample of uneducated people about the game primarily (60%?) and then ask them something that they may vote against because of the admitting of use of "creme" and other things he claims he didn't know what they were? He claims to have taken "uppers" from a locker of a teamate. What is up with all of you. People don't like him because he stinks, not because of color. I would feel the same way if it were Mark or Giambi. Cheating is cheating no matter the color of your skin. If Hammerin' Hank took greenies, he should have an asterick too.
posted by Mickster at 08:20 AM on July 17, 2007
It seems to have slipped my mind...what race is Hank Aaron? I always thought it was a little weird to view something like this as record breaker vs. record holder, as if there were a lot of Roger Maris fans hoping that Mark McGwire would lose a hand in a farm accident before he hit 62. Hank Aaron's no Babe Ruth. He's respected throughout baseball for his achievement but was never the larger-than-life figure whose play defined his era. I don't think this poll reflects a Bonds vs. Aaron decision at all. It's just about Bonds.
posted by rcade at 08:53 AM on July 17, 2007
The people who were"shocked" to hear that Aaron was booed when he approached Ruth's record are very young,naive or have bad memories. Aaron received several death threats and even Ruth's widow came out against him. We are no better than before. We just cover up and delude ourselves.
posted by sickleguy at 09:33 AM on July 17, 2007
I'm on the fence when it comes to the steriods conversation. On ever level of professional competition people "do things" to get the edge on their competition; it's the world we live in (like it or not). In Bonds case, steriods or not, he still has the skill to look down a baseball moving 90 plus miles per hour and make contact 751 times. Steriods did'nt give him his eye or swing (more power.....yeah). How many people given steriods could acutally go and do the same? In the world of competition people do what they must to rise above the rest. If the spotlight was turned so we could see all that goes on; maybe the stoning of Barry Bonds would stop. Who came up with that dumb a.. poll anyway; why was it important to identify race in the voting? Everybody cheats! Some get caught some don't. How many times in sports has a defining moment been in question? It's the drama that is life; live with it. (Jordan clearly pushed off.....) put an asterik next that.
posted by fourthreeforty at 10:07 AM on July 17, 2007
The people who were"shocked" to hear that Aaron was booed when he approached Ruth's record are very young,naive or have bad memories. Aaron received several death threats and even Ruth's widow came out against him. The article's a bit sloppy; there's no reason for us to be equally sloppy in reading it. Quoting from the article and with some added emphasis: "A Harris Sports Survey back then showed 77 percent of baseball fans were rooting for Aaron to beat the Babe. That poll was taken less than a month before Aaron did it in 1974; the previous August, a Harris survey found 63 percent rooting for the Hammer. By a 63 percent to 26 percent margin, fans in that August poll said they agreed with the statement that they were "shocked to hear people are rooting against Aaron because he is black." The Harris results were not broken down by ethnic groups. Aaron received considerable hate mail during his path toward No. 715." Now, what that says is that there was a poll at the time showing that two-thirds of the fans in the Harris survey -- not broken down by race -- were shocked to hear that "people" were against Aaron breaking the record because of his race. What people? How many people? Doesn't say. We don't know what numbers or percentages of people were against Aaron's breaking the record, and we don't know how they break down based on race. I was around at the time, and while my memory's suspect because a)I'm one person and b)I was pretty young, I don't recall a lot of outrage/againstyness that could have been attributed to race when Aaron broke the record. I do recall a certain amount of...nostalgia? regret? of a sort, that such a long-standing record was falling. But I don't recall anyone doing a poll showing that 55% of minority fans wanted Aaron to break the record while only 34% of white fans wanted him to break it.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:11 AM on July 17, 2007
People don't like him because he stinks, not because of color. I would feel the same way if it were Mark or Giambi. First, Bonds doesn't stink, he is an amazing baseball player and always has been. Giambi won comeback player of the year after his steroid use was revealed, so I certainly don't believe it is only about steroids. I think it is about Bonds not clowning and putting on the show that people want him to put on. He comes from a baseball family, yet people want him to feel honored and grateful everyday that he gets to play the game. I think people can legitimately dislike Bonds for his personality, but they feel so strongly about him because he is black. I always liked Bonds just fine, but I was never a big fan. However, since everyone decided to single him out for steroid use like he was obviously the only one who ever did steroids, I have become one of his biggest defenders. Black people are well aware of the phenomena of people trying to keep the black man down, and this looks like a good example of discounting his accomplishments for one's own agenda.
posted by bperk at 10:20 AM on July 17, 2007
Aaron received several death threats and even Ruth's widow came out against him Those are very much factual but with Babe Ruth's widow, she was also against Roger Maris when he was about to break the Babe's single season home run record so I don't think it was generally about race with her.
posted by BornIcon at 10:20 AM on July 17, 2007
First off, of the 2000 people polled only 825 were baseball fans. How much credence can we give to a baseball poll that asks almost 60 percent of its respondents about something they are not a fan of? Evidently, questions about Bonds were only answered by baseball fans. Kind of an important fact left out of the posted story, particularly since it means it is only representing 825 total votes. I tend to think this poll is totally meaningless, but it is interesting that while 42% hope Bonds falls short of Aaron, only 36% feel that he should be kept out of the Hall of Fame. I suspect a good deal of those rooting against Bonds are doing so more out of sentiment for Aaron than any feeling about Bonds' title-worthiness.
posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 10:48 AM on July 17, 2007
As probably the whitest guy on the planet (seriously, my skin is almost translucent), I'm pulling for Bonds to break the record. And, I'm pulling for ARod to break that record. And, if I'm still around, I'll pull for Nikolai Bonds to break ARod's record.
posted by grum@work at 11:06 AM on July 17, 2007
This reminds me of the discussions back in the day re: Prop 48 which was minimum scholastic requirements for Division 1 athletes. Lots of critics complained it was racist because it was usually Black athletes that didn't meet the SAT or GPA standards and therefore were ineleigible and lost scholarships. Arthur Ashe said "yeah, but for every Black athlete that is ineligible there is another one behind him to take his scholarship, and that one will be better qualified for college." Hank Aaron was a great man who accomplished his record during a completely divisive time. Bonds is a fucking hack cheater. Bonds could hit 900 home runs and it won't matter, Hank will always be the King.
posted by vito90 at 12:01 PM on July 17, 2007
grum, I have to take issue with you. I am the whitest person on the planet. I have to lay out in the sun all summer just to get to white. My skin resembles the belly of a rainbow trout. And yet the ladies can't keep their hands off of me. On topic, I, for one, still feel that Bonds has not officially been found guilty of doing anything wrong besides being a surly ass. Perhaps I just WANT to root for someone without having doubts about his accomplishment, or maybe my gut is telling me that he might just be one of, if not the greatest home run hitter to play the game and we spent too much time trying to find him guilty of something. Rather than just enjoying it for what it is. And please don't roast me, but I'm still not sure about O.J. not only hides, but hides in a church
posted by THX-1138 at 12:12 PM on July 17, 2007
#1 THX you're beautiful!! #2 I can't wait for Bonds to break the home run record just to watch Bud Selig squirm. I know all about the steriod thing, but even if he was taking steriods, you still have to hit a round ball coming at you 100mph with a round bat. I'd have to be on heroin to get anywhere near that plate with a ball coming that fast at me. Lastly, a couple of years ago I saw Barry Bonds at Disney world, he signed everybody's autograph, and I mean EVERYBODY. Extremely polite too. On a totally different note, as I mentioned above, I saw him in Disney World. Now for the record, I hate the f ing place, but my family loves it. When I am roped into going there, I spend most of my time trying to get in front of peoples video camera's and giving them the finger. I figured I've given the finger to people in over 40 countries. So, if any of you out there have Disney World home movies, check them very carfully for MGDADDYO
posted by MGDADDYO at 12:33 PM on July 17, 2007
That said, CC if it was determined that Aaron took greenies, would he still hold the record "to you"? I think that if that were the case he should get and asterisk too. Cheating is cheating, no matter the race or what record one is trying to break (and by the way I am the whitest person here as I'm French/Canadian on one side and Finn/Croat on the other and both sides invented white). That said I think they idea the Aaron took greenies is, from what I've heard, a lot thinner then the evidence that Bonds is one steroids. Besides while greenies would have made it possible to be "up" for more games (as if he'd drank gallons of coffee, which certainly is not cheating) taking steroids, to me anyway, is a whole different animal since it builds a persons muscular strength making it possible for a person to hit the ball harder and further, thus getting more home-runs. So if it could be proved then give Aaron a small asterisk and Bonds a great big neon glow in the dark one. Oh and THX-1138, I'm not sure O.J. was guilty either.
posted by commander cody at 12:41 PM on July 17, 2007
My skin resembles the belly of a rainbow trout. This isn't eHarmony.com - please don't put your personal ads here. Insert pleasant emoticon here.
posted by jerseygirl at 12:57 PM on July 17, 2007
Oh and THX-1138, I'm not sure O.J. was guilty either. *spit take* Cheating is cheating Then you might want to ge used to saying "Roger Connor, HR king", as one of Ruth's bats that is on display is suspected of having cork in it.* *I guess Frank Robinson or Ken Griffey Jr would be the actually champs, if we also believe the stories about Mays and his "red juice". steroids builds a persons muscular strength making it possible for a person to hit the ball harder and further, thus getting more home-runs. But it does not, in fact, make it easier to hit that little white ball with the round bat. That's why the World's Strongest Man competitions don't have home run derbies.
posted by grum@work at 01:02 PM on July 17, 2007
When it comes to rooting for Barry Bonds to become the home run champion, one factor stands out: race. An AP-Ipsos poll released Monday Now all I want to know is when these individuals were polled were they asked “Barry Bonds is an african-american and because of his race will you be rooting for him? “ I don’t think that was the question and the poll proves nothing.
posted by LadyBaseball at 01:12 PM on July 17, 2007
Yeah, it's never been proven Bonds ever took steroids, right, much less illegal/MLB-banned substances, correct? Even "The Clear" or whatever was neither illegal or banned, or am I mistaken there? It's all just allegations, hints, suggestions, etc. Not to mention that we're not talking 1970's horse hormone shots in some ABC afterschool special; is it possible modern performance enhancing drugs are not much more dangerous than vitamins or protein powder? And what does performance enhancing mean: faster recovery from workouts? Is the prevalence of hitting the gym "performance enhancing"? Are high-speed analysis, tape review, and kinetic analysis "performance enhancing"? Really, people hate Bonds for totally irrational reasons, and once they have that mindset there's no convincing them otherwise. I think bperk is right: because he's not doing the whole Ernie Banks smiley thing, because he's from a baseball family and has always been the best, and because he's never been "aw shucks" and humble, there's a dislike of him in the media corps which has bled into public opinion. Christ, if the media wasn't so in love with, and sugar coating the off-field exploits of, that hooker-killing, hobo-raping bastard Greg Maddux, I suspect the "public" would hate him too. Me, I figure we're watching probably the greatest offensive threat to ever play the game, and if you take away his 2001 73-HR season his numbers aren't even that anomalous from the beginning of his career; they are a reflection of skill, training, and a great fear/ respect of his ability. During the all-star game, Bonds was much a topic, and his fellow players almost uniformly agree they're watching one of the very very best. I think they know how hard hitting is, and how good he is, and how for all the effort they might put in the gym (and the fact that others who have admitted taking steroids aren't putting up his numbers) they can't approach his level of accomplishment, and rightly tip their cap. Barry Bonds is a modern-day Ted Williams: the best in the business, and sorely underappreciated in his time.
posted by hincandenza at 01:14 PM on July 17, 2007
Don't underestimate the power of the alabaster man, jg. My incandescent glow shall cast a spell upon all of the fairer sex. Can I get you another drink, grum?
posted by THX-1138 at 01:40 PM on July 17, 2007
Yeah, it's never been proven Bonds ever took steroids, right, much less illegal/MLB-banned substances, correct? Even "The Clear" or whatever was neither illegal or banned, or am I mistaken there? you are not. Even if he took something, it was not illegal when he was taking it. Now that MLB has banned it and is testing rigorously, he has yet to fail the test and yet still has a 1.054 OPS. because he's not doing the whole Ernie Banks smiley thing, because he's from a baseball family and has always been the best, and because he's never been "aw shucks" and humble, there's a dislike of him in the media corps which has bled into public opinion. The media dislikes him because he doesn't talk to them. They take it out on him by jumping on any negative story they can related to him. The people hear 24/7 by all major sports outlet what an ass he is and thus think he's Satan incarnate. Christ, if the media wasn't so in love with, and sugar coating the off-field exploits of, that hooker-killing, hobo-raping bastard Greg Maddux, I suspect the "public" would hate him too. Agreed. I go back to the whole "Cal Ripken Jr." thing, in which he was reportedly one of the biggest asses in sports. I've heard more than a few reports of people who met him that he treated like garbage. He stayed at different hotels from the other players. Yet the media "loved" him and so the people "loved" him. If Bonds didn't stay with his teammates on the road, it would be on the frontpage. Nobody even knows about this in regards to Ripken, though, because Ripken spoke with the media and gave them interviews. Barry Bonds is a modern-day Ted Williams: the best in the business, and sorely underappreciated in his time. I tell this to my anti-Barry friends all the time. They are turning off the TV when he comes on. This guy is the greatest baseball player of our generation (and possibly ever) and you're turning off the TV because the media tells you to? Don't do that to yourself. Watching him play is one of the things you'll be able to tell your grandchildren about and they'll look at you with the same awe that we looked at ours who talked about the old-time greats.
posted by bdaddy at 01:46 PM on July 17, 2007
I think bperk is right: because he's not doing the whole Ernie Banks smiley thing, because he's from a baseball family and has always been the best, and because he's never been "aw shucks" and humble, there's a dislike of him in the media corps which has bled into public opinion. Ken Griffey, Jr. is black and comes from a baseball family. Griffey is not terribly comfortable with the media and can sometimes come across as aloof. If we were talking about Griffey instead of Bonds, though, I think the public attitude would be completely different. The Bonds Vibe is just sour, and has been going all the way back to Arizona State (at least) if you can believe what people say about him. Griffey is five years younger than Bonds, and If He Can Just Stay HealthyTM he just might catch him.
posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 02:04 PM on July 17, 2007
Yeah, now that Griffey is back, if he stays healthy (a very big if, sadly) his natural ability and wisdom of age could put up 35-40 a year just like Aaron did... so he could be in Bonds' range by the time he's Bonds age! Had he stayed healthy, there's a good chance he'd already be over 700 at 37 years of age, instead of likely to pass 600. We'll still recall him as one of the all-time greats, a modern Willie Mays with likely 600+ HR and a stellar centerfielder. More to the point, Griffey also had his media gloss: he was "The Kid", and people imagined him as this fun-loving gangly free spirit, whereas Bonds is the "surly" one (just like Williams). We can see another case already that will likely make the Bonds situation moot: at just shy of 32 years of age, with no history of injury, Alex Rodriguez is about to hit his 500th homerun, meaning he's likely going to hit his 600th homerun by the end of the 2009 season, when he's a couple of months past his 34th birthday. A-Rod has not exactly been a media darling himself. In 5 years, when Alex has put up 5 straight 40+ HR seasons and is closing in on whatever mark Bonds has retired with, will we have this same conversation, claiming that A-Rod is a bastard and a dirty player, blah blah blah? Or will we simply recognize we've seen one of the greatest of all time, and disregard the personal flaws the way we did with those early Hall inductees- including Ruth? Long and short of it is, any BBWAA voter who does NOT put Barry Bonds on the first ballot into the HOF should be promptly stricken from all future voting; just as that one voter who kept Pedro Martinez off the 1999 MVP voting roll because he didn't believe a pitcher should ever win should not have been allowed to vote. Barry is eligible, Barry's numbers are incontrovertible, and Barry has never committed a crime that we know of, nor disgraced the game a la Pete Rose.
posted by hincandenza at 02:22 PM on July 17, 2007
I can understand the black community, with the history of judicial bias against them, standing by bonds who has never tested positive for steroids. That said, I put very little credence in the poll and feel like we've been done this a hundred times already. How many of these baseball fans know the details of the evidence against bonds (and really, who can blame them?). For instance this: It's all just allegations, hints, suggestions, etc. posted by Hal Incandenza Is either a complete misunderstanding of the evidence against bonds or a complete whitewashing. Bonds own testimony and a paper trail a mile long isn't "allegations, hints, suggestions". Much like a jury that hasn't seen the evidence, why would I believe a poll with voters who are ignorant to the facts. I might not agree with the other reasons to support bonds (everyone cheats, it wasn't illegal, hall of fame player before steroids, etc.) but I understand them. But trivializing the mountain of evidence bonds stands on just shuts down the conversation for me. Much like hearing someone tell me OJ was innocent and he'll find the real killers on the golf course one day, the debate isn't even worth having. Black people are well aware of the phenomena of people trying to keep the black man down, and this looks like a good example of discounting his accomplishments for one's own agenda. posted by bperk Ahh, if only my world was as black and white as yours. I want bonds to break the record so we can quit having the debate. Then I hope A-Rod, who I don't like, breaks it. And I wish Griffey Jr. would have stayed healthy enough to break it. Why wasn't McGwire voted into the hall? He's not black, should have been a cake walk. And everything The Crafty Sousepaw just said about Griffey Jr. in comparison. Does your example exists? Of course. Can you color the entire topic with your theory? Nope. This guy is the greatest baseball player of our generation (and possibly ever) and you're turning off the TV because the media tells you to? Don't do that to yourself. Watching him play is one of the things you'll be able to tell your grandchildren about and they'll look at you with the same awe that we looked at ours who talked about the old-time greats. You're assuming that everyone who doesn't like bonds does so because the media tells them not to, which makes about as much sense as saying everyone who watches him does so because the media tells them to, which is also wrong. And I watch Bonds a lot. He's actually, in many situations, pretty painful to watch right now.
posted by justgary at 02:25 PM on July 17, 2007
Ken Griffey, Jr. is black and comes from a baseball family. Griffey is not terribly comfortable with the media and can sometimes come across as aloof. If we were talking about Griffey instead of Bonds, though, I think the public attitude would be completely different. But how much of that difference would be us, fairly informed fans, and how much of it would be the general sports fan listening to whatever Rick Reilly tells them?
posted by yerfatma at 02:34 PM on July 17, 2007
Much like a jury that hasn't seen the evidence, why would I believe a poll with voters who are ignorant to the facts. What's not to believe? The poll is about people's perception of Bonds.
posted by bperk at 03:12 PM on July 17, 2007
Is either a complete misunderstanding of the evidence against bonds or a complete whitewashing. Bonds own testimony and a paper trail a mile long isn't "allegations, hints, suggestions". Oh, you mean the testimony that was illegally leaked, that he nor anybody else involved with could either confirm or deny? That same testimony?
posted by bdaddy at 03:30 PM on July 17, 2007
Leaked testimony, legal or illegal, is still testimony. Everyone knows that "I can neither confirm or deny" is code for confirming something. I just wish Bonds would hit the home runs needed to confirm he has the record so he can become irrelevant.
posted by Familyman at 04:02 PM on July 17, 2007
Bonds should be the holder of the record, period, no asterisk. He hasn’t been officially charged with cheating and he hasn’t come out and said he did. I always wonder why certain “cheats” are looked upon as ok. I do not recall baseball taking away “all” the wins for those pitchers that have been caught with an emery board, they didn’t take away “all” of Brett’s hits up until the point where he was caught with too much pine tar and how about those guys that are too dehydrated to play, they go in get an IV and then they come back to play – their body said no more, but the doctor said yes you can and here you go, why is ok to use this method to “alter” (cheat) their body’s performance.
posted by mpjcrosby at 04:04 PM on July 17, 2007
What's not to believe? The poll is about people's perception of Bonds. posted by bperk Perhaps the word I was looking for was meaningless. Oh, you mean the testimony that was illegally leaked, that he nor anybody else involved with could either confirm or deny? That same testimony? posted by bdaddy Yes, that same testimony. If you want to believe its all a conspiracy, you're certainly may.
posted by justgary at 04:11 PM on July 17, 2007
I just wish Bonds would hit the home runs needed to confirm he has the record so he can become irrelevant. Comment icon posted by Familyman at 4:02 PM CDT on July 17 Brilliant. HOF, recordholder, top 3 player of all time.....irrelevant. Yes, that same testimony. If you want to believe its all a conspiracy, you're certainly may. No, I certainly believe it's probably true. But a) you and I should not even know about it save for the media's distaste for the man himself (wasn't it SF columnist who actually wrote the book detailing his usage? ) b) regardless if we do know about it, no one involved can even comment on it either positively or negatively, so we don't even know the information that was released is complete c) regardless of what we do know, we also know that prior to any suspected usage the man was a HOF'er. We also know that even during suspected usage it was not illegal for him to be doing it. We also know that since his suspected usage, testing has stepped up, yet he has an OPS just slightly under his career average.
posted by bdaddy at 04:43 PM on July 17, 2007
a) you and I should not even know about it save for the media's distaste for the man himself (wasn't it SF columnist who actually wrote the book detailing his usage? ) b) regardless if we do know about it, no one involved can even comment on it either positively or negatively, so we don't even know the information that was released is complete c) regardless of what we do know, we also know that prior to any suspected usage the man was a HOF'er. We also know that even during suspected usage it was not illegal for him to be doing it. We also know that since his suspected usage, testing has stepped up, yet he has an OPS just slightly under his career average. Basically (steroids are illegal, but baseball didn't have it's own policy, and testing in my opinion is a bit of a joke) I agree with everything you said. I simply cringe when people talk of bonds as if the only reason to think he's done steroids is jealousy, hatred, and his size increase. I have no problem with his breaking the record or entering the hall. I also believe he did steroids. But I certainly didn't come to that conclusion because of "allegations, hints, suggestions", and to insinuate so is both misinformed and insulting.
posted by justgary at 05:09 PM on July 17, 2007
Saying that you "think" he cheated so you don't want him to break the record is "unAmerican". What the heck ever happened until innocent until proven guilty. I could actually care less if he cheated or not, there are spitball pitchers in the HOF and that was cheating. Where is the outrage over that. If Bonds were well liked by the sportswriters, I think it would almost be a non-issue. I can't wait for him to break the record. If he did cheat, baseball is getting what it deserves because after the strike, they turned a blind eye to the "possible" cheating that was taking place because "chicks dig the long-ball". If he isn't cheating, then he deserves it. Either way he is an HOFer in my book.
posted by bry66 at 07:38 PM on July 17, 2007
I love everyone's defense of Baroid Bonds. That steroids didn't help him hit a baseball moving at 95 to 100 MPH. Steroids didn't help him make contact with the ball. It just gave him the power to hit it out of the park more often. Look at Pete Rose no power like Bonds but the man could hit the ball. Tony Gwen hit the ball constantly bet if he would have been on the juice like Baroid Bonds he would be the home run King. Baroid was always a high percentage hitter from the beginning of his career. Just amazes me how much more power he has gotten after being upstaged by Mcguire and Sosa a few years back. He couldn't stand not being in the spot light. Around that time I remember everyone saying Griffey Jr. was the only legitimite threat to Hank's record.
posted by twgibsr at 08:22 PM on July 17, 2007
What the heck ever happened until innocent until proven guilty. What the heck does innocent until proven guilty have to do with it?
posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:29 PM on July 17, 2007
Then you might want to ge used to saying "Roger Connor, HR king", as one of Ruth's bats that is on display is suspected of having cork in it True, but we have to draw the line somewhere. Otherwise people would be saying that so and so shouldn't be in the Hall because he drank massive amounts of coffee or took vitamins or was a natural athlete because his parents were this that or another genetic type, etc. If we don't draw the line somewhere there'll only be 3 or 4 players in Cooperstown at all (like Al Kaline who has to be the cleanest human being ever...let alone ballplayer). But it does not, in fact, make it easier to hit that little white ball with the round bat. That's why the World's Strongest Man competitions don't have home run derbies. True and that's not easy (though I don't care that ESPN (?) documentary said a few years ago....stopping a 100mph slap-shot IS harder then hitting a baseball), but with his added strength from the steroids he can hit home runs that otherwise would have just been long fly balls.
posted by commander cody at 11:23 PM on July 17, 2007
If we don't draw the line somewhere there'll only be 3 or 4 players in Cooperstown at all (like Al Kaline who has to be the cleanest human being ever...let alone ballplayer). Uh... what if I told you that Kaline took greenies for years without knowing it because the clubhouse coffee was routinely laced with them and he didn't know? But you're right -- you have to draw the line somewhere. Let's just draw it at Bonds and be done with it. Wipe hands, move on.
posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 12:08 AM on July 18, 2007
Uh... what if I told you that Kaline took greenies for years without knowing it because the clubhouse coffee was routinely laced with them and he didn't know? I'd track down whoever said to put them in there and shoot them. Kaline was my boyhood baseball hero, though I suspect I was only one of many many many kid fans of his. Besides greenies don't really make you a better player. They just keep you awake. Right? Though it would explain his incredible fielding range and speed in right field. But you're right -- you have to draw the line somewhere. Let's just draw it at Bonds and be done with it. Wipe hands, move on. Works for me as long as that means just before Bonds and not after him. Otherwise he shouldn't go into the HOF in that case, his dealer should.
posted by commander cody at 01:52 AM on July 18, 2007
Tangential, but it looks like Bonds is getting back at ESPN for their coverage.
posted by yerfatma at 06:26 AM on July 18, 2007
Tangential, but it looks like Bonds is getting back at ESPN for their coverage. That's great.
posted by bperk at 09:33 AM on July 18, 2007
To me cheating is cheating is cheating and I think he's cheating. Cheating is cheating, no matter the race or what record one is trying to break... Besides while greenies would have made it possible to be "up" for more games (as if he'd drank gallons of coffee, which certainly is not cheating) taking steroids, to me anyway, is a whole different animal since it builds a persons muscular strength making it possible for a person to hit the ball harder and further, thus getting more home-runs. If we don't draw the line somewhere there'll only be 3 or 4 players in Cooperstown at all (like Al Kaline who has to be the cleanest human being ever...let alone ballplayer). I'd track down whoever said to put them in there and shoot them. Kaline was my boyhood baseball hero, though I suspect I was only one of many many many kid fans of his. Besides greenies don't really make you a better player. They just keep you awake. Right? Though it would explain his incredible fielding range and speed in right field. CC, the pretense that your issue with Bonds comes from some strong personal stance on cheating as a whole is a pretty thin one. Twice you've said cheating is cheating, but then you qualified that by saying that some cheating is worse than other cheating, and you've basically implied that for some players (Kaline) there are no revelations of cheating that would cause you to turn on them. Please put the pretense down. Just say you hate Barry Bonds and you wish no good upon him. I have pretty high confidence that you would sell both your strong ethical stance on cheating and your irrational hatred of Bonds if he signed with the Tigers and pumped 35 HRs and 100+ RBIs.
posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 10:45 AM on July 18, 2007
I disagree. I have never said that if it could be proven that Kaline cheated I'd forgive him, I wouldn't. It is true that I do hate Bonds and think he's a monumental jerk, but the biggest issue I have with him is that he's so swollen with 'roids that he can't put his hat on any longer. If the Tigers traded for him or paid him a dime and let him put on the uniform even once just to sit on the bench I'd drop my allegiance to them as a team in a heartbeat. Just as I would if he came to Detroit and hit 100 homers a year and guaranteed them a World Series Championship every year he was there. The championships would be hollow. They would be meaningless to me as a fan. I'd track down whoever said to put them in there and shoot them. Kaline was my boyhood baseball hero, though I suspect I was only one of many many many kid fans of his. Besides greenies don't really make you a better player. They just keep you awake. Right? Though it would explain his incredible fielding range and speed in right field. This was in answer to the question of what I would do IF someone placed greenies in Kaline's coffee without him knowing it (which is a HUGE difference from knowingly pumping yourself up with what you know to be illegal substances just for your own ego and place in the record books). Not to what I would feel if I found out he knowingly cheated. Besides, the last sentence was a JOKE!
posted by commander cody at 02:07 PM on July 18, 2007
the biggest issue I have with him is that he's so swollen with 'roids that he can't put his hat on any longer. That's the problem, that his hat doesn't fit? If the Tigers traded for him or paid him a dime and let him put on the uniform even once just to sit on the bench I'd drop my allegiance to them as a team in a heartbeat. If my mother had wheels she'd be a bicycle.
posted by yerfatma at 02:44 PM on July 18, 2007
Or at least a Segway.
posted by jerseygirl at 02:55 PM on July 18, 2007
If the Tigers traded for him or paid him a dime and let him put on the uniform even once just to sit on the bench I'd drop my allegiance to them as a team in a heartbeat. Then how do you reconcile your fandom having Pudge Rodriguez and Gary Sheffield on your team? Why is Bonds's steroid use worse than theirs? which is a HUGE difference from knowingly pumping yourself up with what you know to be illegal substances just for your own ego and place in the record books So then you don't believe yourself when you wrote "cheating is cheating?" Twice? Again, I say your argument is not about steroids, it is not about cheating, it is about your dislike of Barry Bonds. Which is totally fine, but I think you should call it what it is. Don't couch it as indignation toward a breach of ethics, because you're not consistent there.
posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 02:57 PM on July 18, 2007
Then how do you reconcile your fandom having Pudge Rodriguez and Gary Sheffield on your team? Why is Bonds's steroid use worse than theirs? I'm not aware of any serious allegations against them for steroid use. Honestly I am not. Then again I suppose there are rumors about just about every ballplayer MLB these days, but words are easy to throw around. The evidence against Bonds seems to be overwhelming, even if not presentable in court. So then you don't believe yourself when you wrote "cheating is cheating?" Twice? Of course I do, but you can hardly say that that applies if Kaline did not know he was being given greenies. That may be cheating on the part of someone in management, but certainly it is not cheating on his part as an individual. If he didn't know he was being given greenies, then he was not cheating. And yes, I can not emphasis enough that you are right, I do hate Bonds, but not JUST because he's an obnoxious jerk (and he sure is) but ALSO because he is knowingly cheating out of pure ego. If you want to defend him because he hits a lot of homers for a team you like or like him personally then that's fine too, but please don't pretend that his hands are clean in this.
posted by commander cody at 04:09 PM on July 18, 2007
Or actually that should say WAS not aware of alleged steroid use by them before reading those links.
posted by commander cody at 04:11 PM on July 18, 2007
Or at least a Segway. I would ride her all over town, basking in the open-mouthed gawking of the hoi polloi.
posted by yerfatma at 04:16 PM on July 18, 2007
If my mother had wheels she'd be a bicycle. Mine would be a tricycle. Old and slow, but still lovable and worth keeping around.
posted by commander cody at 05:00 PM on July 18, 2007
Or actually that should say WAS not aware of alleged steroid use by them before reading those links. So, now that you know, I guess you've dropped the Tigers cold. The Yankees have Giambi, but you can try the Red Sox. There are plenty of people here who are happy to extoll the virtues of rooting for that miserable franchise.
posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 05:37 PM on July 18, 2007
Good seats still available, judging by the callers to 'EEI who insist the Red Sox are screwed and have no chance.
posted by yerfatma at 06:42 PM on July 18, 2007
So, now that you know, I guess you've dropped the Tigers cold. The Yankees have Giambi, but you can try the Red Sox. There are plenty of people here who are happy to extoll the virtues of rooting for that miserable franchise. No, not at all. There is no real evidence that Pudge did use steroids or the Sheffield has used them for quite awhile, so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. However it would appear that Bonds is still using them or something similar, so I'm not as inclined to be in his favor.
posted by commander cody at 08:14 PM on July 18, 2007
Please let me know if you need more sand to bury that head of yours.
posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 11:28 PM on July 18, 2007
so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. However it would appear that Bonds is still using them or something similar, so I'm not as inclined to be in his favor. Why? Because he's still 'big'? Both sheffield and giambi are in the same boat as bonds. Giving sheffield a pass while slamming bonds is ignoring the facts and relying on personal hatred for bonds. To believe there's any difference between the three is doing exactly what Crafty already mentioned.
posted by justgary at 11:38 PM on July 18, 2007
I disagree. I see no problem with not slamming Pudge and Sheffield for having given up using steroids and slamming Bonds for continuing it.
posted by commander cody at 12:01 AM on July 19, 2007
However it would appear that Bonds is still using them or something similar If he was using something, he would have to be the ballsiest motherf*cker on the planet. - The man has more media attention right now, than every other athlete in North America combined. - He has reporters tailing his every move, hoping to find something new to scream and shout about in order to feed the constant raging beasts that are 24/7 sports channels/websites. - He has a federal government investigation still trying to pin ANY crime on him. - The one man that might have been his contact for these illegal drugs is currently sitting in a prison. - The one company that might have been his primary source for these drugs has been shattered by the IRS and FDA. - He is a participant in a sport that is going through the heaviest public scrutiny about their drug testing plan. - He is subject to random testing like every other player in the league. But if you still think, with all this hanging over him, he's some how found a new source, a new system and an opportunity to acquire this drugs and then use them without anyone finding out...
posted by grum@work at 12:11 AM on July 19, 2007
I see no problem with not slamming Pudge and Sheffield for having given up using steroids and slamming Bonds for continuing it. I'd love to hear your sources for that claim.
posted by justgary at 12:29 AM on July 19, 2007
I don't have any sources, it's just my belief. My opinion.
posted by commander cody at 12:50 AM on July 19, 2007
Bonds should be the holder of the record, period, no asterisk Hold the presses there, I know as well as everyone else he'll get it. Although how about we actually wait until he hits 'em all first ok? how about those guys that are too dehydrated to play, they go in get an IV and then they come back to play – their body said no more, but the doctor said yes you can and here you go, why is ok to use this method to “alter” (cheat) their body’s performance. An IV of normal saline does not even contain any drugs, it is only sterile water. This is what they are most likely giving the dehydrated players. Or they may even be using lactated ringers solution, again no drugs contained in it.
posted by jojomfd1 at 12:59 AM on July 19, 2007
I don't have any sources, it's just my belief. My opinion. You must have someone taking dictation. There is no way you could type these responses while keeping fingers in both ears and screaming "LA LA LA LA LA" at the top of your lungs. Don't you ever wonder why they keep the cork on your fork?
posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 01:04 AM on July 19, 2007
I don't have any sources, it's just my belief. My opinion. CC, in the beginning you took the moral high ground on cheating. Then you decided there were levels of cheating. Then, although the same evidence is attached to both bonds and sheffield, you decide that bonds continues to use steroids yet sheffield, ironically a player on your favorite team, has stopped. To back that claim up, nothing. You came on strong and ended with a whimper. You simply don't like bonds, and that's ok. There's a few players I have less than fond feelings for. But I admit it. You should do the same.
posted by justgary at 01:17 AM on July 19, 2007
I have admitted that I don't like Bonds and I really don't. But it's still my opinion, strictly subjective, that Bonds is still doing some sort of enhancement drugs of some type. I can't prove it and I have no source for it other then it just looks like it to me. It's the same thing when it comes to Pudge and Sheffield (though I will admit that living here in Los Angeles means I haven't seen Sheffield much). It just doesn't look to me like they're unnaturally bulked up and it looks like Bonds is. It sort of like looking at a real wrestler and then looking at one of those bad actor body building "pro" wrestlers. It's obvious that the "pro" one are not getting those bodies just by working out and that's the same impression I get from looking at Bonds. He doesn't look natural to me. I still think I take the moral high ground when it comes to cheating as I was questioned as to how I'd feel if I heard that Kaline had cheated and I said it would ruin my whole image of him, but the case that was presented was someone else putting greenies into his coffee without him knowing it and that's not cheating on his part. So he's no less a hero to me. I don't see where that's a different degree of cheating. To me if HE didn't cheat then he's not a cheater.
posted by commander cody at 01:33 AM on July 19, 2007
You must have someone taking dictation. There is no way you could type these responses while keeping fingers in both ears and screaming "LA LA LA LA LA" at the top of your lungs. Don't you ever wonder why they keep the cork on your fork? I disagree. That doesn't make me wrong. It just makes me someone who disagrees with you. Fair enough?
posted by commander cody at 01:34 AM on July 19, 2007
CC, I was joking. Once you pull the "I don't have any evidence whatsoever except I just think it's true" card, any serious discussion is pretty much over at that point. You are clearly set on painting the scene as it suits your desire regardless of what is said here, which it is certainly your right to do. Just doesn't make the conversation very interesting.
posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 01:50 AM on July 19, 2007
No problem. I am one who tends to express pure opinions rather then facts and I can understand how that can be frustrating to some people when I say something like "Well that's just how I feel" rather then "OK here's the link to prove it". To me sports is a lot more subjective, emotional and opinionated then it is facts or statistic's.
posted by commander cody at 01:54 AM on July 19, 2007
To me sports is a lot more subjective, emotional and opinionated then it is facts or statistic's. Well, it feels disingenuous for you to claim the difference between Bonds and Sheffield is anything more than the shirt on their respective, overly-muscled backs.
posted by yerfatma at 05:40 AM on July 19, 2007
Well, it feels disingenuous for you to claim the difference between Bonds and Sheffield is anything more than the shirt on their respective, overly-muscled backs. But I never claimed that. I said that it doesn't look to mean like Sheffield is doing anything illegal. That it doesn't look to me like he's unnaturally bulked up by chemicals. But that it does look like Bonds is. That's all. That's just what it looks like.
posted by commander cody at 01:44 PM on July 19, 2007
Well, it feels disingenuous Oh...and I'm sorry you feel that way.
posted by commander cody at 02:25 PM on July 19, 2007
That it doesn't look to me like he's unnaturally bulked up by chemicals. But that it does look like Bonds is. Hiring you would save MLB a fortune in urine cups.
posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 08:21 PM on July 19, 2007
That it doesn't look to me like he's unnaturally bulked up by chemicals. But sheffield's never looked unnaturally bulked up. So obviously that method doesn't work.
posted by justgary at 08:26 PM on July 19, 2007
Works for me.
posted by commander cody at 09:06 PM on July 19, 2007
;-)
posted by commander cody at 11:01 PM on July 19, 2007
Hiring you would save MLB a fortune in urine cups. Hey, the commander doesn't come cheap.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:42 AM on July 20, 2007
Dr. Pepper comes in cans.
posted by yerfatma at 09:51 AM on July 20, 2007
Hey, the commander doesn't come cheap. Just ask my wife.......
posted by commander cody at 11:25 AM on July 20, 2007
Works for me. posted by commander cody Well, that's fine. You can believe in santa claus, and you can believe the moon landing really happened in a giant hanger in a made for tv special. I wouldn't try to tell you other wise. But for sportsfilter, it's empty conjecture and probably better suited to your own blog. You came on very strong at the beginning of this thread, and at every point you've been shown the fallacies in your argument. For the final one you claim bonds still looks like he does steroids, which proves he still does them. But sheffield is under the very same accusations as bonds (in other words, the save evidence damns them both) and his body has not differed in any meaningful way. Yet you condemn bonds but not sheffield based on that line of reasoning. And in the end, when you have nothing left to back up your claims against bonds, when nothing you've said works anywhere other than inside your mind, you say "works for me". It would make you look much better commander cody if you just admit that you don't like bonds, and no argument, no light shed on the subject, will overcome that hate.
posted by justgary at 11:28 PM on August 05, 2007
To me cheating is cheating is cheating and I think he's cheating. It doesn't really matter to me though if he does break Aaron's record, because he's so tainted that not many people will give him credit which is good, considering that no credit is due. To me no matter what happens with Bonds, Hank Aaron still holds the record.