February 14, 2007

Hidden: Tim Hardaway, the yin to Jon Amaechi's yang:: "First of all I wouldn't want him on my team," said Hardaway. "Second of all, if he was on my team I would really distance myself from him because I don't think that's right and I don't think he should be in the locker room when we're in the locker room."

posted by insomnyuk to culture at 11:31 PM - 143 comments

Maybe Adolph Hardaway thinks we should put gay people in concentration camps and gas chambers. I can understand the shower part somewhat, but not out of hate. More out of plain insecurities than anything else.

posted by Ricardo at 12:28 AM on February 15

These comments by hardaway are astounding. i didn't know that someone would have the gall (or the outright ignorance) to say such things. I'm sure everyone will want to put in their two cents about what an idiot he is (and he certainly looks like one now), but i hope this thread gets deleted before it gets too out of hand and we start to sound like him.

posted by brainofdtrain at 12:35 AM on February 15

Although I 100 percent disagree with what Tim Hardaway said and I think it is offensive to the gay community. I would hope that his freedom to speak what HE believes would be taken as just that. his belief. I'm sure that others in the league feel the same way but are keeping it to there self. Lets not forget the MEN in this league who are stand up guys who are secure enough in there own manhood that this would not interfere with there relationship with this player. "Why would this be a problem on the basketball court? does he play any differantly because he is gay? does he pass diff? does he shoot diff? the answer is no . so he deserves the same right to play the game as any one does.

posted by bigpoppav at 01:06 AM on February 15

Yup, he can say it, and we should be glad he did. Don't hate the guy because he puts the scarlet letter on his own chest. That is exactly what we should want, for each clown who feels this way to identify him or herself, in the public glare, in their own words, voluntarily. I'm actually disappointed that he retracted some of it a bit later and apologized. I would encourage all other athletes who feel the same way to be honest about it, not hemming and hawing and torturing the english language. I want to know who the assholes are! The devil you know...

posted by vito90 at 01:43 AM on February 15

He is allowed to say what he wants and I would not have it any other way. But I also get to say he is a moron and deserves any ridicule that comes his way. I will boo him every chance I get.

posted by kbmusic at 01:52 AM on February 15

Just like John Amaechi came out after retiring, so did Hardaway. He just came out as a dumbass.

posted by Ricardo at 05:34 AM on February 15

There doesn't seem to be much of a story here: Ex-sports star is homophobic. So what?

posted by squealy at 06:01 AM on February 15

I personally think homosexuality is wrong, but I wouldn't think it is necessary to bring it up in a conversation unless heterophobes decided to have a public discussion about it. When people start having press releases about thier sexual behavior, I don't see why anyone having an equally opposing and "offensive" view on the issue should not be considered just as "brave" and "heroic" as the homosexual that thinks he has done something important by letting the world know about his sexual behavior. You can disagree with me, just don't tell me that I have to agree with you.

posted by Familyman at 06:11 AM on February 15

Beat the dead horse here. I like vito's response. It sure is nice when the bigots identify themselves.

posted by SummersEve at 06:18 AM on February 15

unless heterophobes decided to have a public discussion about it Please identify one or more cases of anti-breeder hostility. Next you'll be organizing the Millionaire's March.

posted by yerfatma at 06:30 AM on February 15

"Why would this be a problem on the basketball court? does he play any differantly because he is gay? does he pass diff? does he shoot diff? the answer is no . so he deserves the same right to play the game as any one does. In my opinion, there shouldn't be any problem on the court with the ability to play the game. One issue I think might be a problem for some players is in the locker room. I think some guys might be uncomfortable sharing a locker room with an openly gay player. If a female player were on a mens team, she would be given her own facilities to shower and dress. Why should an openly gay player be allowed to share the same locker room facilities with heterosexual men? If the argument to be used is that just because one is gay, that doesn't mean one is necesarilly attracted to all of the same sex, then why do we have separate locker rooms for men and women? Anyone with me here or do I stand alone in my opinion?

posted by danjel at 06:39 AM on February 15

The interviewer in the radio interview with Hardaway hit the nail on the head: Homophobia is like racism. If a white player went on the radio saying he hated black people, wouldn't want to share a locker room with black people, etc., we wouldn't even be discussing this, because just about everyone (unless their heads were so unbelievably far up their asses) would condemn it. It just shows that homophobia is still an acceptable prejudice in our society. (Look at the poll on the interview page; most respondents said that Hardway's comments are "What most people believe.") The worst of Hardway's comments were that he wouldn't love a gay family member, if he had one. That's not only ignorant, it's just downright mean. Who couldn't still love their old granny if she suddenly came out as a lesbian (for example)? Only someone with a heart of stone.

posted by ridadie2005 at 06:47 AM on February 15

I personally don't think that this is that big of a deal at all. Don't get me wrong, I totally disagree with everything Tim Hardaway said but I'm sure he isn't the only person that feels that way, he just the first to say anything like this. I'm positive that some will support him while others will ostracize him but regardless, it's still the way that he feels. I actually heard the interview this morning (a replay of it on ESPN) while Hardaway was on the Dan Le Batard show in Miami and it was actually the last, last question that Le Batard asked Hardaway and it sounded more like an afterthought than anything. Le Batard even told Hardaway that his comments sound downright homophobic and Hardaway responded with "I am homophobic" and "I hate gay people!" Now that Hardaway has "come out" in a different way than John Amechi, let's just see what happens.

posted by BornIcon at 06:53 AM on February 15

Just another reason to despise the guy. Playing under Riley for the Heat in the late '90s was another.

posted by ajaffe at 07:24 AM on February 15

This is the same sort of sentiment that Karl Malone expressed when Magic Johnson announced that he was HIV-positive. Karl was on a seriously high horse until Charles Barkley and Michael Jordan reminded him (just as publicly) that they all hung out at the same places and it could have happened to any one of them. After Karl opined to whomever asked him, I've never felt the same about him, knowing that he was a bigot and a hypocrite. This is a longwinded way to agree with vito. There must be a great deal of fear in those locker rooms, there are gay athletes who have not come out.... How ever do those poor heterosexual athletes shower?

posted by yzelda4045 at 07:30 AM on February 15

I'm glad Mr.Hardaway expressed his 1st Amendment rights. Why is it ok to express your opinion as long as its politically correct? This is the exact point of the 1st Amendment. We can all state whatever we want. If you don't agree, the new liberal thing to do is brand it hate speech, when in reality it is free speech. It's his and everyone's right in our country to express our opinions. Good for you, Mr. Hardaway

posted by winston1984 at 07:37 AM on February 15

yzelda, I do remember when "The Mailman" made those comments and I have to agree that in a sense, the two comments are similar in a way. Here you have two individuals that just don't seem to understand that magnitude of what they're putting out to the public. After the comments made by Malone about Magic, a lot of people did not look at him the same way. The only difference was that Karl Malone was an active player when those comments were indeed made. Hardaway has been retired now for a few years now and hasn't been in the spotlight for quite some time. Now, after these comment about homosexuality, he seems to have become the spokesman (or is it spokesperson these days?) for all people that feel this way about homosexuals. I'm sure that he's not the only retired or active athlete that does in fact feel this way, just as I'm sure that John Amechi isn't the only person that so happens to be gay. They are just the first two to have actually come out to reveal what's truly in their hearts & mind. ".....the new liberal thing to do is brand it hate speech...", "Good for you, Mr. Hardaway" When Tim Hardaway said and I quote, "I hate gay people", that right there made it hate speech. The same would go if someone were to say, I hate black people or any person of color. That's also considered hate speech and rightfully so. IMO, in the long run, it's more than likely that this won't be good for Mr. Hardaway.

posted by BornIcon at 07:52 AM on February 15

Amaechi was on Mike and Mike this morning and said there's actually a good side to Hardaway's comments. He feels that with the comments, people who try to pretend homophobia doesn't exist anymore have to realize it does. He went on to say, "Since his words, the percentage of emails I've received, just overnight, that are going to have to go in a little box somewhere just in case I end up dead one day are unbelievable. He has been a lightning rod for people to open the floodgates and say some pretty awful stuff."

posted by SummersEve at 08:11 AM on February 15

Amaechi was on Mike and Mike this morning and said there's actually a good side to Hardaway's comments. He feels that with the comments, people who try to pretend homophobia doesn't exist anymore have to realize it does. That's one thing that's been interesting (but not surprising) to me in the Amaechi threads: the number of well-meaning straight people who are honestly shocked at the level of homophobic bigotry that still exists. I feel a column coming on...

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:25 AM on February 15

No matter how brazen Hardaway's comments are they should not be compared to racism. Racism in this country is the unjust exercise of power (an action, not just a belief) over another people based simply on skin color. "Unjust exercise of power" is the key phrase. Hardaway has not exercised any unjust power over homosexuals.

posted by Obleeze at 08:26 AM on February 15

So he wouldn't be racist if he had said he hated white people because he hasn't exercised any unjust power over anyone. BS! Bigotry is bigotry is bigotry, whether or not you are in the position to use your bigotry to exercise power doesn't change the fact that you are a bigot. Mr. Hardaway is a bigot. Yes he has the first amendment right to proclaim to the whole world his idiotic close minded point of view, but everyone else has the first amendment right to decry his ignorance and bigotry for what it is.

posted by apoch at 08:31 AM on February 15

One issue I think might be a problem for some players is in the locker room. I think some guys might be uncomfortable sharing a locker room with an openly gay player. I suppose it's potentially troubling, and could possibly hurt a teams ability to come together (I think I remember a LeBron quote to this effect). Of course LeBron is a black man, and people would have been saying that about him just 30-40 years ago... If we were to seriously look at your hypothetical (a woman on the same team as men), I doubt that the men would be shying away from showering together :) If a gay man doesn't have a problem sharing a locker room with straight men (if your knee-jerk reaction is "of course he wouldn't, you might wanna think about why that is), then straight men can just man up and stop worrying if some guy is eyeballing their nuts.

posted by chmurray at 08:32 AM on February 15

Winston1984, Welcome to the site. Now please learn to read -- no one is saying Timmy didn't have the right to say what he did. It's just that we (well, most of us, anyway) have the right to call him out for it.

posted by ajaffe at 08:39 AM on February 15

On the showering issue: I think we should all shower together!

posted by BlueCarp at 08:39 AM on February 15

Re: the shower thing, the egotism is the most wonderful thing about homophobia, that every guy assumes no homo could ever resist a piece of meat as fine as them.

posted by yerfatma at 08:47 AM on February 15

Who couldn't still love their old granny if she suddenly came out as a lesbian (for example)? Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting "Jed, we need to have a talk ..." Well said on the shower issue, yerfatma. As a former offensive lineman, I can say that even I don't like touching my naked body, and I'm pretty sure any gay teammates would share that opinion. Maybe all these guys should have to listen repeatedly to "Bobby Brown Goes Down" by Frank Zappa.

posted by wfrazerjr at 08:49 AM on February 15

That's one thing that's been interesting (but not surprising) to me in the Amaechi threads: the number of well-meaning straight people who are honestly shocked at the level of homophobic bigotry that still exists. You know what it is, LBB? Obviously this is truly just my perspective here. I get pissed off that people don't think its a big deal or that people aren't more upset about it being said. Taking it even a step further, they take these threads as an opportunity to voice their agreement with the ignorance and idiocy spewed or continue it with their own special flavor of ignorance and idiocy.

posted by jerseygirl at 08:54 AM on February 15

Got a problem with stupid bigoted people. It must be insecurity acting out, I don't know. My brother was filled with hatred (mainly for Chinese for some reason) and I always told him whoever you hate will end up in your family. Your daughter will show up some day with Hop Sing and announce her plans to wed. Anyways, I wish prejudice, bigotry, and hatred would simply go away very soon.

posted by wdminott at 08:57 AM on February 15

the number of well-meaning straight people who are honestly shocked at the level of homophobic bigotry that still exists. I totally agree l_l_b, I could not stand that Mark Cuban blog because I felt he and a lot of the other spofites were giving the peolpe in this country too much credit. Homosexuals are still one group it is ok to pile on in this country. "I don't think that's right and I don't think he should be in the locker room when we're in the locker room." I love this argument. I went to school with a couple of openly gay men and never once did they drop trow in the locker and start going at it with themselves at the sight of my deliciously heterosexual body.

posted by HATER 187 at 09:03 AM on February 15

Homosexuals are still one group it is ok to pile on in this country. REPHRASE IN THREAD 8342, STAT

posted by yerfatma at 09:47 AM on February 15

As for the showering argument, would it personaly bother me, probably not because I have faith in people's ability to control their urges. But I do believe there is a privacy issue here. Society at large has historicaly believed that we are predominately hetero- the whole propagation of the species thing - and has seen fit to separate the sexes in places where nudity is involved since we all cannot admit to having a Doctor-like distance from sexual attraction to or at least a gawking fascination with the opposite sex (Porky's told me so). So in order to retain a sense of privacy in an otherwise non-private moment e.g. gym showers, we separate. I don't think that it is a mater of ego as yerfatma suggests, but an admission that our eyes tend to seek out the naked form of those we are attracted to no matter how righteous or pious we claim to be. I don't think that it is wildly out of line for someone to feel uncomfortable in a locker room situation in which gay/straight mix. Of course none of this absolves TH. Hate is hate.

posted by gradys_kitchen at 09:52 AM on February 15

The problem here isn't athletes, its Christianity and all their bigotry. I thougth Jesus's message was love all and forgive all.. didn't recall seeing an astric that said.. * except gays. When it boils down to it these athletes and people are only against it because they are taught that if you are gay you go to hell, until the church stops preaching hate this will be a forever argument.

posted by warstda at 09:54 AM on February 15

Whenever somebody is excessively antigay, I am tempted to paraphrase the old saying" Methinks thou dost protest too much".Or,how much latency can you tolerate,Tim?

posted by sickleguy at 10:01 AM on February 15

Re: the shower thing, the egotism is the most wonderful thing about homophobia, that every guy assumes no homo could ever resist a piece of meat as fine as them. I went to school with a couple of openly gay men and never once did they drop trow in the locker and start going at it with themselves at the sight of my deliciously heterosexual body. Put me in the camp that would get the heebie jeebies. Men shower with men, and women with women for a reason. And it isn't because I am naive enough to think that my body would be irresistable, it is that the mere possiblility of having another man ogle my privates with desire triggers revulsion, not a phobia. Just my worm in a big can of 'em.

posted by mjkredliner at 10:02 AM on February 15

I thought Jesus's message was love all and forgive all... We can talk about a person's sexuality, we can talk about a person's race and we can even talk about whether a person is right or wrong. But religion has no place here, dammit!! God bless you all.

posted by BornIcon at 10:03 AM on February 15

Re: the shower thing, the egotism is the most wonderful thing about homophobia, that every guy assumes no homo could ever resist a piece of meat as fine as them. Comment icon posted by yerfatma at 8:47 AM CST on February 15 "I don't think that's right and I don't think he should be in the locker room when we're in the locker room." I love this argument. I went to school with a couple of openly gay men and never once did they drop trow in the locker and start going at it with themselves at the sight of my deliciously heterosexual body. Comment icon posted by HATER 187 at 9:03 AM CST on February 15 OK, so based on your arguments that gay men aren't going to be interested in every guy nor apt to engage in sexual activities in the mens locker room, why do women and men have separate locker rooms? Certainly all men aren't interested in every women sexually just as all gay men aren't interested in every man. My answer is that most women are uncomfortable with the notion of sharing a locker room with a man, regardless of a man's intent (sexual or non-sexual). So then why is it ok to subject a man to similar pressures? Whether you want to agree with it or not, I think gay men in the mens locker room is a problem.

posted by danjel at 10:14 AM on February 15

There's so much stupidity in this discussion it's hard to know where to start. If you agree with Hardaway's expressed hatred of gay people, just say that you agree with it -- don't pretend it's a proud moment for free expression in this country when a moron exhibits his prejudice. I love the idea that showering with a bunch of heterosexuals is perfectly comfortable behavior for some people, but if one of them turns out to be gay, it's like dropping dishwashing detergent in water sprinkled with pepper. News flash: If you're the kind of person who spends time showering with groups of nude athletic men or women, you're spending time with some gays. The only reason you think your world is heterosexual-only is because people like you have scared people like them into hiding their identity. Some people here seem tentative about expressing their anti-gay sentiments, knowing that they might meet with disapproval, scorn and perhaps even open hostility. Hold on to that feeling, multiply it by 100, and pretend that the way you feel is a sin against God and you have to hide it from people for the rest of your life or they will stop loving you. This will be a better world when the ones who feel like they have to hide are the bigots.

posted by rcade at 10:15 AM on February 15

Just my worm in a big can of 'em. Let me just say that I can hear the snickering and guffaws allready.

posted by mjkredliner at 10:17 AM on February 15

As far as the shower/dressing room thing- The WNBA has one locker room for the players. I haven't heard any stories about mad orgies going on, sexual harassment against the straight girls or anything of the sort.

posted by urall cloolis at 10:21 AM on February 15

There's so much stupidity in this discussion it's hard to know where to start. rcade, it appears, based on your comments, that you have zero tolerance for people who are bigotted towards gays. How does labeling these people stupid and morons make your argument effective?

posted by danjel at 10:23 AM on February 15

As far as the shower/dressing room thing- The WNBA has one locker room for the players. I haven't heard any stories about mad orgies going on, sexual harassment against the straight girls or anything of the sort. Comment icon posted by urall cloolis at 10:21 AM CST on February 15 Just because you haven't heard any stories does not mean all WNBA players are comfortable with the policy.

posted by danjel at 10:26 AM on February 15

rcade, it appears, based on your comments, that you have zero tolerance for people who are bigotted towards gays. Bingo. I'm also not fond of racists, anti-Semites and the designated hitter. I wasn't directing any of my comments at you in particular, but you ought to expand your horizons a little regarding showers. The notion that people of opposite sexes or orientations can't be naked around each other is not universal. Nude beaches and camps are all over the place. Could a team with men and women share a locker room without it being freaky? Based on my secret nude past, I'd say yes. You'd be surprised at how quickly it becomes mundane.

posted by rcade at 10:30 AM on February 15

OK, so based on your arguments that gay men aren't going to be interested in every guy nor apt to engage in sexual activities in the mens locker room, why do women and men have separate locker rooms? Certainly all men aren't interested in every women sexually just as all gay men aren't interested in every man. My answer is that most women are uncomfortable with the notion of sharing a locker room with a man, regardless of a man's intent (sexual or non-sexual). So then why is it ok to subject a man to similar pressures? Whether you want to agree with it or not, I think gay men in the mens locker room is a problem. i think the main problem in your argument is that a naked gay man and a naked straight man look the same, whereas a naked man and a naked woman look different (which is moreso the crux of the reason we have different change rooms and not issues with people being sexually lewd towards one another) how, exactly, do you know who the gay man is to be able to identify his intent? not all gay men are openly gay to the world every second of every day; they believe their sexuality is their own and has no bearing on public discourse. up until he made the choice to publically come out, john amaechi was still gay. noone, not even once, complained about his behaviour in the locker room and tim hardaway had nothing to say until he did. so how, exactly, is it pressuring a man if he doesn't even know who the gay men are?

posted by dfleming at 10:34 AM on February 15

Ignorance of Amaechi's lifestyle, by his teammates, was apparently bliss, dfleming.

posted by mjkredliner at 10:38 AM on February 15

I wasn't directing any of my comments at you in particular, but you ought to expand your horizons a little regarding showers. I personally don't have a problem with the shower thing. I am just taking an objective view of the situation and trying to present valid points of discussion. Why does it appear to be generally accepted that a man should not have a problem with showering with another man who is sexually attracted to men? And why is it generally not accepted that a woman shouldn't have a problem with showering with another man who is sexually attracted to women? There is a double standard here.

posted by danjel at 10:39 AM on February 15

Clearly, the answer is that everyone gets his or her own shower and locker room. Once we make sure that nobody sees anyone else naked, all of our problems will be solved. In fact, I advocate blindfolds. You never know when you might be unexpectedly turned on by your own genitals. It's too chancy to risk. Man, I like SportsFilter, I really do. I'm too much of a sports moron to comment much, so I tend to generally lurk and stay out of things. But this week has been really disappointing.

posted by Skot at 10:54 AM on February 15

Tim Hardaway doesn't feel like being in a shower with a homosexual ""GASP"". Most of the posts here are sympathetic towards the gay player and I'm surprised. There is a reason the guy was in the closet up to now. It's because he knew the reactions he would recieve, for one he knew the straight guys would feel uncomfortable showering with him and that his lifestyle choice could affect team morale. Being a successful unit on the basketball court requires trust, unity, friendship, and loyalty. Common bonds include love of women, nice cars, nice possessions etc. Maybe that list is shallow but these guys play basketball, they are not computer engineers or ACLU lawyers so what do people expect from a player's reaction? I'm with Hardaway to this extent, if I am in a foxhole for two days waiting for the enemy I want to share that moment in my life with someone who shares my values. When we talk I don't want to hear about how uncomfortable last Thanksgiving was at the "inlaws" house and how hard it is for him and his husband in this society. You have got to be kidding me!

posted by mikemora at 10:55 AM on February 15

As far as the shower/dressing room thing- The WNBA has one locker room for the players. I haven't heard any stories about mad orgies going on, sexual harassment against the straight girls or anything of the sort. Ahhh ... the all athletic women are gay angle. This is a newish development.

posted by gradys_kitchen at 10:56 AM on February 15

Oh boy, do I ever feel a column coming on.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:56 AM on February 15

I think gay men in the mens locker room is a problem. So what is the solution to this problem. 4 locker rooms? Straight mens, gay mens, straight womans, gay womans? This is slippery slope, next thing you know we will go back to having separate water fountains. REPHRASE IN THREAD 8342, STAT homosexuals are one of the groups it is ok to pile on?

posted by HATER 187 at 11:09 AM on February 15

SportsFilter: You never know when you might be unexpectedly turned on by your own genitals. I'm with Hardaway to this extent, if I am in a foxhole for two days waiting for the enemy I want to share that moment in my life with someone who shares my values. I would want to share my foxhole with someone who had combat skills, medical skills or beer.

posted by rcade at 11:11 AM on February 15

everyone gets his or her own shower Actually Skot, why not? Doesn't have to be a separate room. Think stalls, like the one's that keep us hidden from the world while taking a crap. Everyone's privacy remains intact. Tons of kids in Jr High and High School swim/gym classes would rejoice.

posted by gradys_kitchen at 11:14 AM on February 15

Ahhh ... the all athletic women are gay angle. This is a newish development. In a previous Amaechi thread someone had stated that a number of WNBA players are openly gay. I'm not sure if that's true because I don't follow the WNBA but I bet that's where the comment came from.

posted by tron7 at 11:15 AM on February 15

if I am in a foxhole for two days waiting for the enemy I want to share that moment in my life with someone who shares my values So you're saying you would share your hole with someone you cared for, Gareth? Just because you haven't heard any stories does not mean all WNBA players are comfortable with the policy. Yuh-huh. And just because we haven't heard doesn't mean Coca-Cola didn't have JFK killed.

posted by yerfatma at 11:16 AM on February 15

I think I agree with those who have compared a gay man showering with other men to a straight man showering with other women. It is not the fact that I believe that I am irresistable to homosexuals. It's simply that if you are gay, that means that you are NATURALLY ATTRACTED TO MEN. Which means that showering with them would be the equivalent of a straight man showering with women (as he is NATURALLY ATTRACTED TO WOMEN). It's not fair that gay dudes get to oggle stuff (that they want to) in the shower and straight men don't. I would just wait to shower until I got to the hotel. Who wants to shower with a bunch of dudes (gay or straight) anyway? Probably a gay guy. Do people even shower together in the locker room anymore? I know we didn't in high school or college. I've seen some nasty old folks walkin around naked in the 24 hour fitness locker room, but people 25 and under seem to be more modest when it comes to gettin naked with other folks. Which is odd when we consider fashion trends (string bikini's, mini skirts etc... just thought I'd throw in something of interest to the gay community).

posted by yay-yo at 11:31 AM on February 15

Hater, you only need three showers. Since the division is by sexual attaction gay men and women could shower together since they share no interests. Actually, maybe you do need four. Where do the bisexuals shower?

posted by apoch at 11:31 AM on February 15

I think gay men in the mens locker room is a problem. posted by danjel If you've spent any time in a lockerroom, through athletics, your local fitness club, etc. then you've spent time with gay men in the lockerroom. Some of them may even have been attracted to you. How was it a problem? There is a double standard here. posted by danjel It's not a double standard at all. Those aren't equal comparisons. Imagine this. A female works out at the local club and goes to shower in a co-ed lockerroom. She's alone except for 4 other guys, or 1 other guy. I could easily see a problem, and it has nothing to do with attraction. It's about a difference in power. For my part, I don't have a problem showering with gay guys. The gay guys I've known had better taste in almost everything than I do. If one thought I was attractive, I'd be flattered. I must be doing something right. So what is the solution to this problem. 4 locker rooms? Straight mens, gay mens, straight womans, gay womans? posted by HATER 187 According to some in this thread, that idea is the only solution. Sad

posted by justgary at 11:37 AM on February 15

It is a shame that Jackie Robinson wasn't openly gay. Then we gotten this all out of the way a long time ago. As wrong as I find Mr. Hardaway's opinions,I find it sickeningly refreshing to hear someone actually speak his true feelins,instead of Bald-faced lying to a PC minded public.The one thing that we tend to overlook in this country is--the thing that makes our country the best in the world is that we have the ABSOLUTE right to HATE anyone for no more than the color of their skin, or their religion,or their sexual oriantation.I truly wish that more bigots would speak their mind,for no other reason ,so we would know whom to Deify,and whom to villify.

posted by Tubby Fan at 11:43 AM on February 15

It's sad that so many of the comments in this thread are completely retarded. Alas. I was hoping to point out how incredible it was for Hardaway to say that he hates gay people. I mean come on. It's one thing to say you disagree with or disapprove of a lifestyle choice, it is another thing to say you hate someone for it. Based on the comments in this thread, I wonder how many NBA players share Hardaway's feelings. Truly sad.

posted by insomnyuk at 11:52 AM on February 15

I'm with Hardaway to this extent, if I am in a foxhole for two days waiting for the enemy I want to share that moment in my life with someone who shares my values. Gosh, that's swell. While you're indulging in some fantasy about choosing who you'd like to share a foxhole with--I didn't know you got to pick--you might as well also imagine your awesome life as an NBA basketball player. In either scenario, make sure you imagine yourself surrounded by the Creeping Gay Horde.

posted by Skot at 11:53 AM on February 15

I can understand that this guy is homophobic and he is not comfortable showering with him. But to say that you think his sexual orientation is wrong and he shouldn't even be in the locker room with the other players? I'm sorry but Tim Hardaway is a PRICK and a bigot!

posted by Warrior50 at 11:53 AM on February 15

I thought Christian Latner came out gay while at Duke? Am, I wrong, this is not the first player to come out of the closet, or maybe it's just the first to make a media statement about it. Who cares if they are gay, there are many gays in the league and I am sure Tim Hardaway played with several not even knowing it. Which would explain why they keep it a secret, people like Tim treat gays differently, so they are scared to come out. Now we have come full cirle on this issue, thanks Tim for justifying the FEAR in gays coming out!

posted by sap_basis at 12:12 PM on February 15

Let me try another tack1 on the showering thread, since we have focused on that instead of discussing the issue at hand: why does any attractive woman, clothed or naked, ever ride any sort of public transportation or work in an office with me or come within eyeshot? I have a damn imagination; I don't need to shower with them to think whatever I am wont2 to think. Those goddamn gays are already ogling3 us right now. When we're minding our own business, picking up the morning paper, taking a jog or having sex on the patio when the moon's behind the clouds. What happened to our rights to privacy, enshrined in some article of the Constitution4? 1. For all you pre-madonnas who think I meant "tact", read it that way. 2. Don't bother guessing 3. Or "oggling". Either way. 4. Word "tit" is right in there. How 'bout that? Malcolm X once said he preferred a Klansman to a Northern liberal because you knew where the former stood. So I'd like to thank you folks for coming out. As it were.

posted by yerfatma at 12:16 PM on February 15

Pre-Madonna, no one worried about the gays. I blame "Vogue".

posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:21 PM on February 15

I think we got re-directed to the shower scenario because people apparently are unwilling to admit that they're expressing a bigoted opinion when they are. I don't hate gays I love them! Just don't make me shower with them! As a general rule women get individual shower stalls. As a general rule men do not. I'm not sure how well known this distinction is, I talked about the gender differences in showering arrangments with my wife and she was pretty much amazed/terrified. Very early in life I learned to not care. You're not there to hang out with naked people, you're there to get clean. I could care less if you're straight, gay, or have a vagina, because I'm there to get clean. My wife just blanches at the idea because she isn't used to it, which in my opinion is the whole crux of the issue. Naked bodies are naked bodies are naked bodies. People generally look the same, and if you are just there to get clean and get into some fresh clothes who really cares what your virgin eyes see. I know I don't. This whole idea that the reason we separate by attraction is amusing as hell. Certain men will behave inappropriately around women if presented the opportunity. This is damn near guarantee-able. It is a safety issue, and nothing else. Once we become evolved enough we probably will just have one common area for changing and showering. All of you who won't share a shower with a gay man are expressing a bigoted opinion. You need to examine your thinking a little harder if you honestly think you're not homophobic but you won't shower with a gay man.

posted by chmurray at 12:22 PM on February 15

I'm with rcade. (You can read into that all you want). No read closely because there's going to be a real truth revealed in this post: Most of you arguing that gays shouldn't shower with straights have likley done so. Now, showering with a unknown gay guy isn't a problem, because he looks, talks and acts like virtually anyone else in the shower. (Trust me on this - I go to the 'gayest' YMCA in the whole city. ) If you engage in any activity that involves hitting the showers, you have showered with a gay guy. Now, the unknown gay guy isn't an issue - however, if that man chooses to confide in you that he is gay - because he feels your friendship can handle it, or because he just doesn't want to continue living as some kind of liar, or even because it would amuse him to see you squirm - and it does become a problem - then the problem isn't him - it's you. Nothing has changed except your knowledge. The problem is you. And I have as much tolerance for that kind of bullshit as you do for gay people. It's like a taste of your own medicine. You really want to know how gay people act in the shower when there are no mysteries? They clean themselves. Maybe some of them think you're attractive - but most of them are just like you with girls - deathly afraid of ever approaching the subject for fear of rejection (coupled with the added fear of actually unleashing pysical violence). Translation - nothing happens that you don't want to happen. Gay people aren't out there grabbing straights and trying to make them gay. Gay people aren't cornering straights outside bars and beating the shit out of them. Straight people are doing that to gay people, though. Everywhere.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 12:22 PM on February 15

Nobody on Amaechi's team knew he was gay before he just now told the world, and one would assume he was surrounded by naked nall players for a long time. Now, I don't know about other guys, but when I'm sexually aroused, I often get an erection. It's pretty obvious if I'm naked. I assume Amaechi's would be, too. If none of his teammates knew, then it stands to reason that Amaechi wasn't getting aroused by all the naked men in the locker room. None of his old teammates are saying, "Oh, yeah, we noticed that; we all thought it was just priapism, or maybe he was daydreaming about cheerleaders.". For whatever reason, whether it was fear, or lack of attraction to his teammates, or professionalism, Amaechi as able to keep from being aroused in the locker room. And that's the whole story. Maybe it was easy for him, maybe it was a struggle, maybe he just kept a focus on basketball and avoided looking at teammates he was aroused by. Whatever the explanation, he conducted himself as a professional, didn't harrass any teammates, and even waited until he was retired to make his announcement, in order not to upset team chemistry, knowing that there might be players he depended on and who depended on him who wouldn't or couldn't display the professional attitude he did. Tim Hardaway is one of those players; what he's doing now is sexual harrassment. What he's doing now is unprofessional. It's not surprising. Maybe most straight guys wouldn't be able to control their hormones in a locker room full of women. Maybe Hardaway thinks, "If I were in that situation, it would be cool for me to have an erection in the shower." Few of his hypothetical female teammates would. We'll never know. It's a matter of self-control. Amaechi clearly has it, and Hardaway clearly doesn't.

posted by Hugh Janus at 12:32 PM on February 15

Since no one is buying my shower stalls in every locker room idea maybe we could institue the following so that evey man could reaffirm his hetero-ness while bathing: http://blogofwishes.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/ShowerBreasts1.jpg

posted by gradys_kitchen at 12:52 PM on February 15

I'm with Weedy. (You can read into that all you want.)

posted by qbert72 at 12:55 PM on February 15

I would be aroused by showering with women. Sorry. Guys who say otherwise also claim they read Playboy for the articles.

posted by ChiefsSuperFan at 12:57 PM on February 15

Eh, I like free speech. We should let people express themselves so we truly know them. I am not homophobic, because I dont fear gays. Do I respect their lifestyle, no. Do I have any friends that are gay, no. However I am not into persecuting, which can only be done through actions not words by the way, so in the regard I dont bother them. You are never going to be able to tell a whole segment of the population that they have to accept something that they deem incredibly immoral. I assure I dont think that I am morally sound all the time but I tend to not fight nature. If being gay werent a decision thing, like being a thief or crack head, I think there wouldnt still be all this fuss. But all of this revolves around a choice. We dont have to respect, like, or embrace your own personal choice. And you cant even compare people not liking gays to people not liking blacks. A) you are born black you dont choose it. B) gays werent enslaved then actively discriminated against. I'd say they havent been through anything of note, as a group, that makes their cause so special.

posted by Drallig9399 at 01:07 PM on February 15

Okay, while I don't agree with Hardaway and think his opinion is just that, an opinion. It is an ignorant one for sure, but again it's his opinion. It's unfortunate that in today's world there is still this kind of backward thinking, but how many people here have listened to Rush Limbaugh say vurtually the same thing and not get offended? To say that Hardaway has committed sexual harassment is ludicrous, though. What he has committed is SEXUAL DISCRIMINATION. As a black man, I would think he understood what discrimination felt like, and would be among those less willing to commit it. It just goes to show that discrimination runs rampant throught our society. Oh, and I know this is old news, but did it bother anyone else the Michael Richards (Kramer) was villified for racial slurs when he was responding to hecklers shouting racial slurs at him. Um, I do not use those words myself, but I'm trying to put myself in his shoes. I'm trying to do my job, some idiots keep yelling racially motivated slurs at me, I finally blow up and then I yell racial things back at them. Childish yes, but I don't feel that constitutes racism. What it constituted was someone losing their cool and sinking to the level of those idiots. I know this was off the subject of Hardaway, but I'm curious how many other people felt like this. Anyway, I think that Hardaway is expressing how he feels, and that there is nothing wrong with that. Would you rather know that his opinion is of such or not? Myself, I like to know what subjets to avoid when speaking to prejudiced individuals so we don't end up causing a scene whe I feel the urge to bitch-slap them over their stupidity. Of course knowing they were like this would prevent me from having to long a cht with them. However, I'm sick of people not being able to voice their opinions in this country anymore. I've hung out and went to places with many homosexuals. Does that make me gay? No, but I still wouldn't shower with them. :) Oh, and one last thought, Do you think the fact that Hardaway apologized means he has changed his whole outlook on homosexuals?

posted by hellamarine at 01:08 PM on February 15

"While you're indulging in some fantasy about choosing who you'd like to share a foxhole with--I didn't know you got to pick--" Well you may not know military units are broken down into squad size, approximately 12 men. Like basketball but with much more at stake. "In either scenario, make sure you imagine yourself surrounded by the Creeping Gay Horde." Date who you want dude I don't really care but I don't want to hear the intimate details of your lifestyle choice and problems with your husband. And you guys are a creeping horde everything today is gay gay gay gay. Hollywood and the supporting media is creating the gay state. Enough already.

posted by mikemora at 01:13 PM on February 15

This week with all the threads and idiot commentary about homosexuality has been fun. I am not quite sure what we'll do next week to top this, but I do have some suggestions. Everyone goes for a colorectal cancer screening. If there's some way to check our brain function capacity through our assholes, we will sign up for that too. Then we cruise to our local spa and everyone gets a complete bikini wax, even you dudes. After that, I thought it would be fun to put fireworks in our polyester pants and light them. The fire blankets available to put out the trouser inferno will have poison ivy all over it, so we can be burny and itchy. After that, it's an afternoon of Carrot Top movies while we are alternately pepper-sprayed and doused in kerosene. Next week is going to be awesome. I hope you all show up for the fun.

posted by jerseygirl at 01:17 PM on February 15

And you cant even compare people not liking gays to people not liking blacks. A) you are born black you dont choose it. Huge fan of this argument. Remind me about all the perks that come with being gay that cause people to decide to be gay.

posted by yerfatma at 01:20 PM on February 15

I just want someone to tell me (well, all of us, really) what the "gay lifestyle" is.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:26 PM on February 15

I'm here to help! "The gay lifestyle is for me," said James Miller, an Oklahoma City father of four who recently moved to Provincetown, MA, to pursue a career in bath-house management. "When I was a family man, I constantly had to worry about things like taking the kids to Little League practice, paying for their braces, and remembering my wife's birthday. But now that I'm gay, I'm finally free to focus all my energy on having non-stop, mind-blowing anal sex."

posted by Skot at 01:37 PM on February 15

Good call, hellamarine. It's discrimination, not harrassment. I was wrong. What Hardaway is condoning is harrassment. If he was on a team, acting that way towards a gay player, it would be harrassment. But it's discrimination, because it's general, and from afar. Good point; my mistake.

posted by Hugh Janus at 01:38 PM on February 15

A) you are born black you dont choose it. B) gays werent enslaved then actively discriminated against. Okay. Back up. What? To address your first point, being gay isn't a choice (unless your bi and you decide dating one gender is easier for you than the other). Do you believe that Ted Haggard is "cured of the gay" after his "re-hab"? As for your second point, both parties are suffering through civil rights issues. I don't want to hear any crap about who "has it worse". All parties involved have/are made to be second class citizens, not only in public opinion but under the rule of law. There's no point in comparing. Its the same issue. You can't claim to be for civil rights because you're not racist if you are still homophobic. Civil rights are supposed to be all encompassing and inclusive. If you start picking and choosing who gets what rights it makes it easier for others to infringe upon if not outright deny you your own rights. I'd say they havent been through anything of note, as a group, that makes their cause so special. They can't marry the person they love based on gender. I think there would be quite a stir if we weren't allowed to marry the person we loved based on color, creed, or nationality, don't you? Look up thread there, there's a lot of expressed fear of encountering glb's in vulnerable situations (showers). What seems to be the most common answer to this fear? Segregation. Wasn't too long ago that society had laws for blacks that were similar, no? Again, I'm not trying to belittle anyones struggles, or issues regarding racism or sexual discrimination. I'm just trying to illustrate that they stem from irrational fears, and ingrained (if out-dated) social mores.

posted by lilnemo at 01:44 PM on February 15

I'm here to help! "The gay lifestyle is for me," said James Miller, an Oklahoma City father of four who recently moved to Provincetown, MA, to pursue a career in bath-house management. So if all the gays are in P-Town, what's everybody so worried about? Sheesh. Nothing to see here, move on...

posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:58 PM on February 15

I just want someone to tell me (well, all of us, really) what the "gay lifestyle" is. I think it has to do with the ability of a white man to dress nicely and dance.

posted by tahoemoj at 02:00 PM on February 15

All I know is that they're all evil. Shower with them? No freaking way. They'll eat you without a second thought. And don't bother trying to sleep around one. They'll eat your brain. And then they make those evil little baloon animals and have the flowers that squirt water in your face. Ha ha. Very funny you evil bastard. And what do you think those big feet are for? I'll tell you exactly what they're for. They're to STOMP you with. OK, I'm going to exercise my freedom of speech. I HATE CLOWNS!!

posted by Desert Dog at 02:15 PM on February 15

Has anyone here ever actually seen the inside of a professional locker room? They are 200 million plus dollar facilities. They DO have individual stalls for showering. I think everyone is getting confused and imagining their old high school which had one huge room with 40 shower heads on the walls. As far as "showering with" another man...I do not care if he is gay or not, it is not happening with me.

posted by urall cloolis at 02:33 PM on February 15

I happen to be a member of the last athletic club in America without private shower stalls. I am infinitely more creeped out by the withered old men and their propensity to do everything naked (shave, watch t.v., chat about real estate) than I am by the potential homosexuality of the man five feet away from me trying to get clean. If it's that intimidating to you, do like a thirteen year old at gym class and shower with your swim trunks on!

posted by tahoemoj at 02:59 PM on February 15

I agree completely with tahoe. Good point.

posted by urall cloolis at 03:04 PM on February 15

Man, I like SportsFilter, I really do. I'm too much of a sports moron to comment much, so I tend to generally lurk and stay out of things. But this week has been really disappointing. posted by Skot at 10:54 AM CST on February 15 I just think this needs to be reiterated.

posted by hawkguy at 03:07 PM on February 15

I find Hardeway's comments the same way I found Amaechi's. Boring. What's the news? Gay people exist? Already knew it. Some people don't like gay people? Already knew it. If someone straight announces they are straight, nobody cares. So why should they care if someone homosexual announces that they are homosexual? To me, the fact that he played sports does not make it news or newsworthy. The fact that some people would not want to play sports with him because he is gay is not news or newsworthy. It is just more publicity for his book. If a straight athlete came out with a book about being straight, he would probably be criticized for it. But a gay guy comes out with a book, and he somehow is considered brave or a role model or something. Boring. I would be aroused by showering with women. Not if it was Rosie or Roseanne, I wouldn't.

posted by graymatters at 03:09 PM on February 15

greymatters, when was the last time you heard of a straight person who was stomped to death for announcing that he was straight?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 03:12 PM on February 15

Apparently Tim didn't think he buried himself very well. He kept on shovelling.

Shortly after arriving in Las Vegas, agent Henry Thomas, who also represents Heat guard Dwyane Wade, issued a statement through his office from Hardaway that read, "I want to apologize for my comments yesterday regarding gays. My comments were offensive and I regret making them. I'm sorry to anyone I have offended." However, when contacted by Channel 4 before that statement was issued, Hardaway reiterated the comments he made in the radio interview. "I don't condone it. And if people got problems with it, I'm sorry. I'm saying I can't stand being around that person, knowing that they sleep with somebody of the same sex," he told the television station, adding he would not talk to a gay family member.
Interesting that the Commish had a statement of his own:
After the NBA learned of Hardaway's comments, a league spokesman said Hardaway had been removed from further league-related appearances. "It is inappropriate for him to be representing us given the disparity between his views and ours."

posted by lilnemo at 03:40 PM on February 15

when was the last time you heard of a straight person who was stomped to death for announcing that he was straight? lil_blown_bat, taking the extreme to combat the mundane.

posted by graymatters at 03:44 PM on February 15

There's nothing mundane about this.

posted by lilnemo at 03:50 PM on February 15

graymatters, here's your statement: If a straight athlete came out with a book about being straight, he would probably be criticized for it. But a gay guy comes out with a book, and he somehow is considered brave or a role model or something. Now, that seems to indicate pretty unambiguously that you feel there's nothing brave about coming out -- and if there's nothing brave about coming out, it must be because you believe there's no risk involved. Correct? If not, perhaps you want to rephrase your statement.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 03:51 PM on February 15

So why should they care if someone homosexual announces that they are homosexual? He's the first NBA player in the 61-year history of the league to acknowledge he's gay. I can't speak to why others should care, but I regard gay tolerance the way racial tolerance was regarded by many Americans 40 years ago -- as an important civil rights issue. I look forward to the day when no one cares to find out a player's gay.

posted by rcade at 04:13 PM on February 15

Great point LBB. I also believe that most autobiographies of athletes do tell tales of sexual exploits. I don't hear the criticism when those books come out. The NBA has many players with wives and multiple babies outside of the marraige by multiple women. Most of them cheat on their wives. Yet that is acceptable and being a homosexual is not? What a shame. I believe the book is about how he coped with being gay in an anti-gay profession and why he couldn't "come out" then. What repercussions he faced and could have faced, not a tell all tale of his sexual exploits. About choices and tolerence and the lack thereof. At least that is what it sounds like to me from the excerpts I have read.

posted by urall cloolis at 04:17 PM on February 15

First of all, I keep hearing about tolerance and understanding. If you are gay then be proud of being gay. Just becuause you have a right to live how you want to doesn't mean everyone else just has to take it. We all have the right to our own opinions. Hardaway was expressing his. If you want to call him ignorant or stupid, remember, he has just as much right to say what he said. I think just a handful of gay people want to speak for the entire gay community. The problem is that being gay isn't a way of life. It's a sexual and emotional preference. Wheather you are gay or straight, you still have to breath oxygen and drink water to survive. As humans, we need to get away from labels and titles and take care of ourselves. If being gay isn't wrong then why do so many gay people get upset when someone doesn't agree with the "gay lifestyle". What ever that is! We all need to just take care of our own life and let dumb people be dumb.

posted by WareJordan23 at 04:20 PM on February 15

Nice point, UC. This could be a great boon for the NBA, as I'd say it's going to be highly unlikely Jon Amaechi's going to wind up pulling a Shawn Kemp. But I don't think I can say it any more succinctly than this: I'd much prefer to shower with Jon Amaechi than Tim Hardaway.

posted by wfrazerjr at 04:27 PM on February 15

if there's nothing brave about coming out, it must be because you believe there's no risk involved Of course, there is a risk. There is a risk in everything. People get killed or injured or discriminated against because they are gay. People also get killed or injured or discriminated against because they are not gay. Or because they are black. Or because they are white. Or because they are Hispanic. Or because they are Asian. Or because they are Middle Eastern. Or because they are Christian. Or because they are Jewish. Or because they are Muslim. Or because they are [add virtually any adjective you wish here]. As much as some would like to assume it or argue it, gays do not have a monopoly on being discriminated against. They just get more publicity for it now. People "come out" all the time. I dream of the day when "coming out" does not foster a rash of media exploitation and sensationalism leading, ultimately, to nothing at all. perhaps you want to rephrase your statement Nope. Right or wrong, stupid or not, I stand by it.

posted by graymatters at 04:39 PM on February 15

I hope its not to late for Mr. Hardaway to change his thoughts on gays. When I was young and stupid I felt the same way he does now. I had no reason to to dislike gay people, in fact I didn't know any, I was just ignorant and foolish. Now that I'm older and have met and befreinded some really cool gay guys I feel ashamed at the way I used to be. I hope someday T.H will change his thoughts to.

posted by Snipes at 04:44 PM on February 15

I happen to be a member of the last athletic club in America without private shower stalls. I am infinitely more creeped out by the withered old men and their propensity to do everything naked (shave, watch t.v., chat about real estate) than I am by the potential homosexuality of the man five feet away from me trying to get clean. Amen.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 04:45 PM on February 15

It's hate speech, and there is nothing wrong with pointing that out. Hardaway has the right to spout it. Now, as anyone who chooses to exercise their First Amendment rights, he has to live with the consequences. Remember, the First Amendment only guarantees that you can say it. It doesn't guarantee that people continue to admire you/support you/buy your stuff just because you exercised your FA rights. By the way, lil brown bat, your comment on straight bashing of course made me look it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_gays,_lesbians,_bisexuals,_and_the_transgendered Interesting, I had no idea 2% of hate crime was directed against heterosexuals.

posted by bolo165 at 04:45 PM on February 15

I would be aroused by showering with women. Sorry. Guys who say otherwise also claim they read Playboy for the articles. If you were showering with ugly women, would you still be aroused? If the women in the shower looked like these women, are you telling me you couldn't help but get an erection?

posted by grum@work at 04:46 PM on February 15

People "come out" all the time. I dream of the day when "coming out" does not foster a rash of media exploitation and sensationalism leading, ultimately, to nothing at all. How do you think a gay 16-year-old male athlete felt when he found out about Amaechi's announcement?

posted by rcade at 04:52 PM on February 15

if I am in a foxhole for two days waiting for the enemy I want to share that moment in my life with someone who shares my values. Just out of curiosity, have you ever been in a foxhole waiting for the enemy? I can tell you from personal experience, in combat, I didn't give a flying fuck whether the guy next to me was into vaginas or penises (penii?), as long as he had a loaded weapon and the willingness to use it to keep us alive. Just like the comments above: if you've ever shared a locker room with a bunch of people, at least one of 'em was gay. If you've ever served in the military, you've served with gays. If you snowboard, if you shoot hoops, if you crochet, if you whitewater raft, you're hanging out with gays. They are as much a part of American society as any other demographic, and they have a right to exist, whether you like it or not. And, for all of you who think you know why people are gay ("they choose to be!"), you don't know shit. Hey Christians, guess who made gays? God. Just like He made every other friggin' thing on this planet. And He loves 'em, too. Probably more than He loves you, because you stoop to the level of hate, which we've been led to believe He's not real big on. Sure would be ironic if you went to Hell because of your hatred for your fellow human beings.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 04:58 PM on February 15

penii What does my second favorite type of pasta have to do with this discussion?

posted by HATER 187 at 05:07 PM on February 15

for all of you who think you know why people are gay ("they choose to be!"), you don't know shit. Hey Christians, guess who made gays? God. Why, when people criticize gays, is there a seeming natural inclination to assume that this criticism is based on Christianity? It is several of the Muslim nations that continue to outlaw homosexuality, even to the point of imposing the death penalty. The so-called Christian nations for the most part are not only tolerant, but even pass laws for protection. My version of Christianity teaches to "love the sinner, but hate the sin." And, yes, my version of Christianity does teach that homosexuality is a sin. This does not prevent me from not only tolerating the "sinner," but befriending them.

posted by graymatters at 05:13 PM on February 15

Gray- if god made all people and some people are born gay, where is the sin? I am not religious or bashing your beliefs, just trying to follow your train of thought.

posted by urall cloolis at 05:25 PM on February 15

If the women in the shower looked like these women, are you telling me you couldn't help but get an erection? *fap fap fap*

posted by wfrazerjr at 05:35 PM on February 15

T_B_H, crochet? No, tell me it ain't so. Is nowhere safe from them gays? They're at the local crochet hall? Man, I knew there were hookers there, but gays too? We've certainly seen some members come out and show their true colours in this thread. ( Can I use the phase 'come out') here? From everything I've read, seen and heard from Mr's Amaechi and Hardaway with regards to this issue, I would be proud to call John Amaechi my friend and would be embarrassed to be in any way associated with Tim Hardaway.

posted by tommytrump at 05:36 PM on February 15

If the women in the shower looked like these women, are you telling me you couldn't help but get an erection? Nope- not even a fluffer will work there fraze.

posted by urall cloolis at 05:38 PM on February 15

If the women in the shower looked like these women, are you telling me you couldn't help but get an erection? Not even with beer goggles on.

posted by danjel at 05:47 PM on February 15

With all the hate this incident brought out, I doubt we'll be seeing too many (read 'zero') pro athletes or anyone contemplating coming out come out any time soon. Thats got to be a ton of weight to be carrying around, not being able to be who you are. You can't be who you are out of fear. That would suck.

posted by Desert Dog at 05:48 PM on February 15

If the women in the shower looked like these women, are you telling me you couldn't help but get an erection? Thanks a lot, I might not be able to ever get an erection until I get thet picture out of my mental archive.

posted by tahoemoj at 05:50 PM on February 15

In the most sold book in the history of the world, GAYS, HOMOs, or whatever you want to call them are bashed, hated, disciminated against and even set on fire I would very much like to know where exactly in the Bible Gays are bashed, hated, and discriminated against. As well as the verse[s] where they are set on fire.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 06:09 PM on February 15

Dallas, you are 100 % right. Some people do need to get a clue. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Have you looked in the mirror lately? I don't live in the U.S.A., but I assume that is the country you are speaking of, but I am often critical of your president for his actions, not for who he is as a person. By the way, God didn't write The Bible, a group of men over the course of approximately 1500 years after Christ died are generally credited with that novel. As far as The Bible being the most sold book in the world, that does NOT make it the best. Following that logic, because Mcdonalds has served the most hamburgers, one would have to assume they make the best, which is in my opinion, far from truth.

posted by tommytrump at 06:17 PM on February 15

Dallas- Have you even read the entire bible? Do you agree with it all or just the parts you like? Exodus 21:7 says its ok to sell your daughter into slavery. Do you agree with that? Exodus 35:2- work on a sabbath and you shall be put to death. I guess that is what you tell your boss if he needs work done. Corinthians 19-24- no man shall go near a woman while she is menstruating. I am sure you are a winner with the ladies like that. I guess you agree with all since it is "gospel". Don't come on here to bash and preach unless you can back it up. It is amusing to me that people can be so biased because of what they think they know is "gods way", instead of being kind to their fellow man or woman. Just because it is the most sold book in the history of the world doesn't mean it is factual.

posted by urall cloolis at 06:24 PM on February 15

I would very much like to know where exactly in the Bible Gays are bashed, hated, and discriminated against. As well as the verse[s] where they are set on fire. It's Leviticus. The same book that says that if women wear clothing made with two different threads, they must be put to death. And if man touches the skin of a dead pig, he can be stoned in a town meeting. (What does that mean for football threads on SpoFi?) Exodus says that working on the Sabbath and farmers planting two different crops side by side are sins punishable by death. I love my faith, but am not a big fan of the condemning God as discussed in the Old Testament. On preview: Cloolis beat me to it. Clearly not cloolis about the Old Testament, as well as that New Testament Corinthians quote.

posted by hawkguy at 06:31 PM on February 15

How do you think a gay 16-year-old male athlete felt when he found out about Amaechi's announcement? He was probably scared to death that one of his teammates would start calling him "Amaechi Jr.". A) you are born black you dont choose it. Who would choose to be persecuted? B) gays werent enslaved then actively discriminated against. I'm sure that at least 1 (definately more) slave was gay, and plenty of black people are homosexual.

posted by yay-yo at 06:36 PM on February 15

Thanks for the clarification hawkguy.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 06:47 PM on February 15

If the women in the shower looked like these women, are you telling me you couldn't help but get an erection? Oh yeah baby, that does it right there! You know, I don't like showering with a bunch of people, period. As for having an erection in a locker room full of naked showering women, I don't think so! Whether they look like fatma's pair of lookers or are of the Jenny McCarthy/Angelina Jolie mold, Im thinking you're not getting one. Remember, this is a room full of people you are talking about. I don't know about you, but seeing as how there are generally attractive/unattractive people in every locker room, I don't want fatma's pair thinking that my appreciation is of them. ;)

posted by hellamarine at 06:51 PM on February 15

If the women in the shower looked like these women, are you telling me you couldn't help but get an erection? None of us have missed and not grimaced at the ED medicine commercial listing erections lasting longer than 12 hours as a possible side effect. Grum, you found the antidote, bro.

posted by ChiefsSuperFan at 07:11 PM on February 15

The problem is that being gay isn't a way of life. If being gay isn't wrong then why do so many gay people get upset when someone doesn't agree with the "gay lifestyle". posted by WareJordan23 at 4:20 PM CST on February 15 You've got to be joking with this crap. There are different lifestyles all around the world. There's a WASP lifestyle, a Jewish lifestyle, a rural lifestyle, an urban lifestyle, a Latino lifestyle, an Asian lifestyle, a Middle Eastern lifestyle, a hunter's lifestyle, a doctor's lifestyle....and yes, a GAY lifestyle. It's amazing that you write relatively well but think gays don't have their own way of living. Wow. And your second little nugget there, yeah.....people who are discriminated against are just too sensitive, right? How dare they get their backs up over someone calling them out because of the sex of their bed partner and the lifestyle they live. What a bunch of Marys.

posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 07:22 PM on February 15

I think that during the Nba all star, aside from the East vs West, there should be the gay team vs the straight team. Who would win?

posted by kstreet at 07:23 PM on February 15

Ditka!

posted by danjel at 07:37 PM on February 15

And if man touches the skin of a dead pig, he can be stoned in a town meeting. (What does that mean for football threads on SpoFi?) When I was a teenager I was occasionally stoned in town meetings. Does this actually mean anything?

posted by tommytrump at 07:37 PM on February 15

I still don't get this whole lifestyle bullshit. I mean...think about the heterosexuals you know. Some work at 9-to-5 desk jobs, some dig ditches, some play sports, some watch sports, some hate sports, some love foreign films, some like to cook, some hate to shop...some have kids, some hate the idea of kids, some are vegans, some are fans of the fryolater, some are religious, some are devoted to the rich life of the mind. That being the case, what's the heterosexual "lifestyle"? The only thing that I can figure is that a lifestyle is all the things that make up how you live your life. That being the case, talk about "the gay lifestyle" is just so much bullshit. Gay people are human beings, with the full range of human complexities, and talking about "the gay lifestyle", singular, is just another way of saying that of course all gay people conform to your narrow stereotype. I know, I know, don't confuse you with facts...

posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:38 PM on February 15

Gay Ditka?

posted by tommytrump at 07:38 PM on February 15

I bet Amaechi enjoyed showering with the team like a straight guy would like to shower with Anna Kournikova, J-Lo, and Jessica Simpson......MMMMM can't wait for practice to be over. The first one there and the last to leave. Why do you think Men and Women have seperate locker rooms?

posted by Dallas at 08:20 PM on February 15

Dallas this is exactly where your arguements become meaningless. You naturally assume that just because somebody may not agree with you (or in this case is just asking for specifics) then they must be gay. Your ignorance is astounding. Matthew 5:43, love thy neighbor as thyself. It is not up to you to decide who is or isn't a sinner.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 08:39 PM on February 15

Dallas, please refute my ealier post.

posted by hawkguy at 08:59 PM on February 15

hawkguy, it's not worth your time. Seriously.

posted by jerseygirl at 09:02 PM on February 15

Dallas, you're making the baby Jesus cry. But you're making me laugh.

posted by Hugh Janus at 09:05 PM on February 15

JG, you're right. I'm just mildly annoyed, and looking to misplace (rightly place?) some anger.

posted by hawkguy at 09:06 PM on February 15

Dallas, you're amazing, using the bible for your own convenience. Most "Christians" do, especially fundamentalists. Nowhere in the book does it specifically mention gay people, but it does slavery and that women are subservient objects, inferior to men. Hardaway can say whatever he wants. When I listened to him speak, I could tell he is not the sharpest tool in the shed, and he just illustrated his ignorance. It was not that long ago when interracial marriage was outlawed.

posted by quaybon at 09:50 PM on February 15

While I sympathize with tysnes--what you went through was truly horrible--there is this misconception that gays are pedophiles or somehow perverted. About 10 percent of the species is homosexual. It is not a choice, but who a person is sexually. I personally don't understand the whys of it, and am not a "gay defender," but am just trying to be tolerant of other people.

posted by quaybon at 10:00 PM on February 15

Man, I like SportsFilter, I really do. I'm too much of a sports moron to comment much, so I tend to generally lurk and stay out of things. But this week has been really disappointing. Most are coming from posters who only come out for this type topic to get a rise and those that signed up today just for this thread. Differing opinions are fine, but if you're signing up today to just preach hate and quote the bible don't bother.

posted by justgary at 10:05 PM on February 15

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Is Anna Nicole Smith still dead, Wolf? BLITZER: Yes, we're going to -- updating our viewers coming up shortly on... CAFFERTY: I can't wait for that. BLITZER: ... the mysterious circumstances surrounding that, Jack. Thank you. ........cue in jeopardy theme.......o.k back to the topic...

posted by Grrrlacher at 10:13 PM on February 15

In the end God will correct both of these. How does he correct being gay? Does God take away Free Choice from gays and force them to be straight thus rendering one of God's greatest gifts to use null and void? Or, does God "fix" this by making them straight thus implying people are born gay which also happens to totally discredit your idea that people are not created gay. Humans were not created Gay(Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve). If you're going to take that literally, I assume you also take the rest of the Creation story literally which makes me wonder how you reconcile there being two different stories? Adam was also originally created without woman. Also taken literally, I married Ann, not Eve. Is that a bad thing?

posted by jmd82 at 10:22 PM on February 15

Wing Wang Mafia A quick tip: people are more likely to take you seriously if you don't deliberately mangle someone else's handle. It basically states up front that you are too frazzled or stupefied to approach the discussion in an intelligent manner. If you treat everyone else with some respect, people are more likely to do the same to you.

posted by grum@work at 10:29 PM on February 15

Try- Romans 1 verses 27-32, Mathew 19vs1-10, Leviticus 18vs22. Do I even have to mention the whole story of SODOM and GOMORRAH? (Genesis 19 & Jude 7)They were so nasty GOD had to send down fire from heaven to clean up that mess. What do you have to say about the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures? I guess you don't believe in those either? Of course a lot of GAYS are going to find some kind of way to discredit the bible. Satan was one of Gods creations also. Satan was not created evil. Satan became evil. Humans are Gods creations. Humans were not created Gay(Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve). Humans become gay…….In the end God will correct both of these. Yes. God will correct these. At what point did he nominate us, humans, his judge and jury until he does? At no point in the bible did God give you the right to pass judgment on a single human being. That's his job and his alone. If you can't get past the evil of hatred yourself, your own God will smote the freaking crap out of you. Seriously, remember that part about loving thy neighbor? That's not optional. Your job as a human being is to be tolerant and resistant in the face of evil. So stop trying to hide in a cubbyhole and pretend like homosexuality doesn't exist. If a homosexual man is in the shower with you, it's your job to resist him, not his not to tempt you. If you can't handle that, you're a frigging lousy christian.

posted by dfleming at 10:52 PM on February 15

Is it time to stop this thread now?

posted by brainofdtrain at 11:13 PM on February 15

if god made all people and some people are born gay, where is the sin? urall - God made all people and some people are murderers, some people are thieves, some are alcoholics; so I guess none of those are sins either? Whether a person is born to sin or becomes a sinner, God did make the sinner.

posted by graymatters at 11:14 PM on February 15

...and the grinner...and the winner...and DINNER!

posted by Hugh Janus at 11:22 PM on February 15

Man, how telling is it that after roughly 300 comments over three threads on the Amaechi issue, only one single member of this community of nearly 16,000 anonymous members felt comfortable enough to openly admit they were gay. I'm not saying it was in any way necessary, but the door was opened, and only one person walked through it. If that doesn't tell you how difficult it is to be gay, particularly in the sports world... I appreciate and respect Amaechi's bravery more and more every day.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 12:03 AM on February 16

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