04/19/24
May 03, 2006
Lackey, Kendall ejected as A's brawl past Angels: "It's an absolute joke. What's disturbing here is that you can let anyone charge the pitcher and get him taken out of the game." That's Mike Scioscia's reaction to John Lackey getting ejected from a game after he threw a breaking pitch that didn't hit Jason Kendall, and Kendall charged the mound because he didn't like what Lackey said to him. Does anyone else see a problem with this?
There is no major league rule against talking to a batter. Lackey did nothing but defend himself and was tossed from the game. I completely agree with dyams and Manager Mike. What is it about the Anaheim air that makes some umpires stupid?
posted by Termite at 11:54 AM on May 03, 2006
If he was "defending" himself, he shouldn't be talking crap to a guy who is holding a bat. Grum is right on, shut up and pitch, and nobody has any reason to eject you. But I do agree with Termite in that Anaheim umpires do make stupid calls. Maybe it's all that good weed they have out there.
posted by sublime4390116 at 12:05 PM on May 03, 2006
I saw this too. I would agree that having Lackey tossed seemed wrong-headed. Kendall forgot his fuse yesterday. And that pitch was hardly inside enough to warrant that kind of reaction... Unless Lackey said something truly offensive, I can't think of a single reason to toss him, other than that's the norm when players fight. Or perhaps the Umps were convinced that keeping him in there would only result in more shenanigans. (Shenanigans! "I will pistol whip the next person who says shenanigans.")
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 12:08 PM on May 03, 2006
Seems to me that if MLB would start enforcing 6.08(b)(2) this coud be avoided in the future.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:12 PM on May 03, 2006
I was also watching that play. The pitch was inside to a man known for crowding the plate. He leaned back and let it pass. He didn't lean into it. You see him settling in and waiting for the next pitch while Lackey starts yelling. Lackey then evidently said the magic word because Kendall gets that look and charges. Lackey instigated the fight and deserves the boot. Kendall charges and also deserves the boot. You want to stop all these shenanigans? Enforce the batter's box. Remove the armor plates. Stop letting the players rub out the line before the third pitch of the game. If you lean over the plate and get hit -- call a strike per 6.08(b)(1).
posted by ?! at 12:20 PM on May 03, 2006
Hmmm... 6.08(b)(2)...., 6.08(b)(2)..., ah yes 6.08(b)(2). 6.08 The batter becomes a runner and is entitled to first base without liability to be put out (provided he advances to and touches first base) when... (b) He is touched by a pitched ball which he is not attempting to hit unless... (2) The batter makes no attempt to avoid being touched by the ball; If the ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, it shall be called a strike, whether or not the batter tries to avoid the ball. If the ball is outside the strike zone when it touches the batter, it shall be called a ball if he makes no attempt to avoid being touched.
posted by hb74147 at 12:22 PM on May 03, 2006
If you lean over the plate and get hit -- call a strike per 6.08(b)(1). If I ever get to see this, I will die a happy man. Well, happier anyway.
posted by yerfatma at 12:23 PM on May 03, 2006
Weren't the bases loaded at that point? Why would Lackey be throwing at Kendall, or, more to the point, why would Kendall think Lackey was throwing at him -- and a lollypop curve, to boot -- with the bases loaded? Sure, it would have been better if Lackey had kept his mouth shut, but I wouldn't be surprised if what he yelled was a foul-mouthed version of my points above...
posted by ajaffe at 12:25 PM on May 03, 2006
I think we need to factor in what Joe Kennedy says about a similar run-in with Kendall two years ago: It was kind of the same situation as today," Kennedy said. "No one really knew why it happened, but it was pretty similar. I threw a 1-2 fastball over the plate, and he leaned over and got hit by it. I told him, `Next time get out of the way,' and he came at me. That's bullshit. Hell, the pitch was damned near a strike. I don't care what Lackey said -- it wasn't directed at the plate umpire. If he wants to give a little verbal abuse to Kendall for crowding, it's his dime. Kendall wears the big stupid elbow pad and does lean way out over the plate. It was a fucking breaking ball, you sissy -- if he'd wanted to really get the point across (and if the bases hadn't been loaded), he'd have stuck a fastball in your earhole. I'm hoping that's exactly what someone does during Kendall's first at-bat the next time these two teams play.
posted by wfrazerjr at 12:26 PM on May 03, 2006
I think what the problem was that lackey made it clear that he was clearing kendall off the plate. If lackey hits kendall because he shoving him off, and accidentally lets it slip an inch or two too far it really amounts to a purposeful bean on lackey's part (or at least a negligent bean). if someone throws the ball at me, or tells me they're throwing a ball at me, I'm pissed. Lackey was egging on Kendall.
posted by everett at 12:54 PM on May 03, 2006
it is coming more and more a common practice for these batters to wear these huge arm guards at the plate. The rule is the batter has to make an honest effort to get out of the way of a pitch that might hit him. Kendall (and I have followed him for almost his whole MLB stint) does not move and gets hit alot. he also stands on the plate because of his batting style. He is a catcher for Gods sake, he knows what he is doing. I say Lacky should have been tossed for fighting, not the yelling at the batter. But if I was Kendall and facing Lacky again, be ready for a large amount of fastballs about three inches inside about chest high.
posted by jtrainhoopster at 12:56 PM on May 03, 2006
I think charging the mound should be encouraged and the hitter can use his bat. So the pitcher won't be defenseless, he should be able to carry some sort of weapon, like a knife or a tazer gun. If there is a full out brawl, then the team with the last man standing wins the game. Vince McMahon can be the new commish.
posted by lightman at 12:59 PM on May 03, 2006
P.S. If you are found positive for steroids, then your penis will be cut off
posted by lightman at 01:03 PM on May 03, 2006
Many pitchers yell (or talk shit) to batters, such as Roger Clemens. So now, along with every hit batter and inside pitch, we'll also have brawls in baseball because of a pitcher saying something the batter doesn't like? In most sports (basketball, football) trash talk (and worse) is common. You have to be a little thick-skinned. If Kendall hadn't charged the mound, the umpire could have warned Lackey or (I doubt this would have happened) thrown him out for what he said. If Lackey gets thrown out of the game for this, Kendall should miss two or three games. I agree entirely with those above who mentioned the players (Kendall included) who stand on the plate, yet wear all this protective equipment for when they do get plunked. That type of equipment should be outlawed for players who are judged to constantly crowd the plate.
posted by dyams at 01:22 PM on May 03, 2006
You reap what you sow. Lackey didn't have to say a thing. Anyone who says he should have a right to say whatever he wants is playing a child's game: of course he has a right to say what he wants...but sometimes what you say and do will have a negative effect, and that's when it's time to take responsibility and realize that, yes, none of it wouldn't have happened if he had just kept his big...mouth...shut.
posted by diastematic at 02:09 PM on May 03, 2006
I can see both sides of this but Lackey instigated it so I don't feel too bad if he gets tossed. If Lackey would have kept his mouth shut he wouldn't have gotten tossed.
posted by tron7 at 02:10 PM on May 03, 2006
BTW, it's clear that Lackey was just pissed off because things weren't going his way...bases loaded, things not looking so good...here comes a guy he doesn't like. Now would not be a good time to mix it up -- focus on the game, doofis, and try to win one for your team.
posted by diastematic at 02:14 PM on May 03, 2006
I love tough guy American League pitchers who never have to put their own asses on the plate after they've beaned someone. Instead, one of their teammates gets hit. Its one thing I really hate about the Designated Hitter rule. And one thing I love about interleague play. At least Pedro and Clemens went NL and have/had to face the music.
posted by fenriq at 02:21 PM on May 03, 2006
You reap what you sow. Lackey didn't have to say a thing. Are you kidding? Lackey said something to Kendall. He verbalized a thought or two he had about the hitter. Kendall then decided to physically attack Lackey ... and you're defending Kendall? If it was a case of reaping what you sow, Kendall would have a bat sticking out of his ass and a ball lodged in his forehead.
posted by wfrazerjr at 02:32 PM on May 03, 2006
Some of these guys come to the plate dressed like hockey players; then they practically stand on the plate. The umps line of sight consequently moves 6" outside to accomodate them. The batter's box rules are hardly ever enforced not to mention the strike zone vertical top being well below the letters. The rest of the game is artistic, but the trio area around home plate is a zone of mood swings.
posted by jazzdog at 02:38 PM on May 03, 2006
Nobody really knows what Lackey said to Kendall. What ever Lackey said, made him the instigator, thus just as guilty as Kendall. Ejecting both of them was right, if only to keep the peace. I totally agree with what fenriq had to say about AL pitchers.
posted by livedawhile at 02:42 PM on May 03, 2006
If I'm at bat, and the pitcher tells me he's throwing at me, I'm charging...as opposed to waiting patiently for that 95 mph missile aimed at my head. Bob Gibson never had to tell a batter to stay off the plate.
posted by ?! at 02:48 PM on May 03, 2006
I agree with the equipment ban. But what I'm confused about is why Lackey said anything at all. Did Kendall not get out of the way fast enough for Lackey's liking? If Lackey hits him and walks in a run, ok say something about crowding the plate. But don't yell at the guy for getting out of the way. It's like diastematic said, he was just pissed and looking for some way to vent. Personally, I wouldn't vent at a guy holding a bat, but that's just me.
posted by sublime4390116 at 03:04 PM on May 03, 2006
Oh, if only these cream puffs had to face the likes of Bob Gibson, Ryne Duren and others of that era. They would let you know that they were going to hit you and they would. The pitch that Lackey threw in this case amounted to what you see in slow pitch softball. These guys don't have any idea what getting hit is really like. Also, the batters in those days didn't wear helmets or any of the body armor that you see now.
posted by joromu at 03:47 PM on May 03, 2006
batters in those days didn't wear helmets or any of the body armor that you see now. Yeah but how many of those tough guys are now eating through a straw? Todays player wants to be able to hold his kids after he retires. Or in Randy Johnson's case, keep them at arm's length. In either case I don't think Lackey should have been tossed.
posted by lilnemo at 03:55 PM on May 03, 2006
Or in Randy Johnson's case, keep them at arm's length. you're killing me. In a good way!
posted by jerseygirl at 04:00 PM on May 03, 2006
joromu: Are there ANY athletes in today's society that you have ANY respect for at all? I mean, you slag on hockey players and baseball players for being soft. You also seem to have an unhealthy need for players getting hurt (either in hockey fights or by a beanball). I agree with the equipment ban. That would mean no helmets too? Some players need the foot/elbow/knee protection because they'd previously broken a bone in there and pitch (or foul ball) in the wrong spot would break it much easier than a normal person. All of the baseball players have to get medical permission to wear the extra padding you see today. But what I'm confused about is why Lackey said anything at all. From my understanding of watching the replays, the order of events are: - Lackey breaking pitching - Kendall leans back - Kendall stares at Lackey - Lackey stares at Kendall - Kendall says something about Lackey's staring - Lackey says something about Kendall's talking/staring/mother - Kendall blows a gasket and rushes him - sissy fight begins If either guy simply let it go without the jawing, I doubt we end up with the sissy-fight finale.
posted by grum@work at 04:07 PM on May 03, 2006
The last thing Kendall should be worrying about is some pitcher bitching at him, he's fallen so much from when he was an allstar he didn't hit a homerun at all either last year or the year before i cant remember but still he should be worrying about production not drama
posted by gmactothemax91 at 04:26 PM on May 03, 2006
Baseball players and umpires alike are all too hypersenitive these days. Yes, Bob Gibson used to own the inside and threaten to put a ball in a guy's ear if he had to. You know where he'd be if he pitched today? In the clubhouse paying out fines for getting tossed out every time he came up and in. Players today fight over anything, and umpires throw guys out for anything. Kendall is nothing but a hot-head. He's done this type of thing before, and the elbow pad he wears is because he knows he crowds the plate and will probably get hit on the elbow. He's a player on the decline who knows he probably has to either get hit by a pitch to drive in a run with the bases full. If what Lackey said was so violently horrible, he should have let the umpire throw Lackey out without him charging the mound. Guys charging the mound is, and has been for some time, out of control.
posted by dyams at 05:26 PM on May 03, 2006
Okay now lets juxtapose this thread with all the Biggio slash thats been posted before. Discuss!
posted by lilnemo at 06:04 PM on May 03, 2006
Grum@work U had that fight down to a T, I agree with u 100%. I guess u had to toss them both, but u HAVE to suspend Kendall!!Are we in highschool again or what "Ur Momma" NO!!! "ur Momma" Damn over paid atheletes.
posted by LonghornFaN at 07:21 PM on May 03, 2006
Pedro would have handled it differently, he would have yelled at Kendall to sent out his father so that he could beat the hell out of him. Everybody should just shut up and play baseball!!
posted by INOALOSER at 07:31 PM on May 03, 2006
Dyams, you are telling it like it is. Nice point about the armor restriction and the thick skinned remark. These guys are making the big bucks and should be able to take some trash talk w/ throwing wetting thier pants.
posted by T$PORT4lawschool at 09:39 PM on May 03, 2006
Pedro would have handled it differently, he would have yelled at Kendall to sent out his father so that he could beat the hell out of him. That's about the fifth time you've made that same old pedro joke (that I've noticed), and as hard as it is to believe, it gets less funny every time. Got anything else?
posted by justgary at 10:36 PM on May 03, 2006
kendall should just show some class and trot down to first like Biggio does...if a pitcher wants to hit you, he can nail you anywhere on your body he wants to at any speed. At this level, a batter should be able to tell if it is an on purpous pitch or not. With the bases loaded, no pitcher and I mean no pitcher would risk giving up a run just to bean a guy.
posted by astrorocket at 12:24 AM on May 04, 2006
Yea, I do! Just because National League pitchers have to bat doesn't make them any better or tougher. The next time the National League wins a World Series game let me know. By the way thanks for counting, I didn't know I called Pedro out that many times.
posted by INOALOSER at 08:25 AM on May 04, 2006
Yea, I do! Just because National League pitchers have to bat doesn't make them any better or tougher. The next time the National League wins a World Series game let me know Sure, when a league wins either side of a game between teams I'm sure we'll all notify you about it.
posted by dfleming at 09:38 AM on May 04, 2006
By the way thanks for counting, I didn't know I called Pedro out that many times. I'm very observant.
posted by justgary at 12:39 PM on May 04, 2006
Pedro would have handled it differently, he would have yelled at Kendall to sent out his father so that he could beat the hell out of him. I've watched the vast majority of Pedro's career with great interest and at least mild admiration for his skill, and I must say, I've never seen him beat the hell out of anybody, much less anybody's father. I'm guessing you're talking about Pedro Martinez, late of the New York Mets, but you could be talking about Pedro Feliz, Pedro Astacio, or any of a number of MLB players named Pedro. Again, I'm guessing...you're referring to the unfortunate occasion when an aged Don Zimmer, then with the Yankees, charged at Pedro Martinez with malice aforethought, only to be redirected by Pedro to a less-than-gentle landing on the turf. At no point did Pedro Martinez strike Don Zimmer, or indeed, do anything else to bring physical pain or lack of well-being to Mr. Zimmer. In fact, Mr. Zimmer later took total responsibility for his lack of self-control and loss of professionalism. So, in retrospect, your attempt at humor is not only less-than-accurate, it's misguided at best, and really not that funny at all.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 06:54 PM on May 04, 2006
grum...I saw it a bit different....based on a couple of channels with different views - Lackey pitches inside..but not too inside - Kendall leans back - Mathis stands as Kendall looks down - Lackey shouts something to Kendall - Kendall stares at Lackey - Lackey says something to Kendall - Kendall says something to Lackey - Lackey says something to Kendall - Kendall blows a gasket and rushes him - Hockey game breaks out My prejudice: I favor the Angels over anyone except the White Sox. That said, I still have to say Lackey should just throw his pitches and keep his mouth shut. There's way too much talking and posturing in baseball. Hit the home run...trot the bases and don't stare at the ball. Brush a batter back and simply get ready for the next pitch.
posted by ?! at 10:37 PM on May 04, 2006
There's way too much talking and posturing in baseball. The only thing I see too much of is batters charging the mound, and too many fights in general. Kendall should have skin as thick as the pads he wears.
posted by dyams at 07:16 AM on May 05, 2006
"malice aforethought", believe me, I am impressed!
posted by INOALOSER at 03:26 PM on May 05, 2006
Does anyone else see a problem with this? Nope. Lackey didn't have yell stuff back at Kendall. If he doesn't do that, he probably doesn't get ejected. If Kendall simply rushed the mound because of the pitch, Lackey (probably) stays in the game.