04/19/24
November 04, 2005
JoePa adds his Two Cents to the discussion: Like him or not, what Joe Pa is saying, makes alot of sense! ESPN is trying to play the race card on this like they did the Comments of the Air Force coach.
That's exactly what he's doing. When you ascribe a trait to an entire race -- such as "they have changed the whole tempo of the game" -- it doesn't become non-controversial simply because it is a compliment. I don't think the tempo of college football has anything to do with the number of black players in the sport. Paterno should probably fight the urge to expound on his theory.
posted by rcade at 11:56 AM on November 04, 2005
Even though some coaches say it in a different manner, the message is the same, and it's the same thing many people are always discussing and commenting on, but don't dare (usually) say when news people are around: Black athletes DO bring extrordinary skills to sports, and there's no getting around it. Paterno finally recruited outside of his usual box recently and brought in four tremendously fast, tremendously gifted (black) players, and their attributes define college programs. Anyone that doesn't acknowledge this fact is not being honest. I'm sure people could post the names of countless great, talented white players. But find me the huge list in major division 1A football of white tailbacks and receivers, then tell me it's not the norm. This type of thing is NOT meant to overly-generalize about any specific race, but if you think college staffs don't notice these things in their recruiting practices, you're kidding yourself.
posted by dyams at 12:10 PM on November 04, 2005
So, by your logic rcade, it would be racist and controversial to say that in geenral black musicians have added significant contributions to American culture and influenced many varieties of music? I partially agree with your comment that generalizations based on race automatically carry some sensitivity with them. But, I strongly disagree that there is no direct relationship between level of controversy and a statement's complimentary or derogatory slant. But, you're entitled to that opinion, just as your entitled to your opinion that tempo of the game has nothing to do with black athletes - an opinion JoePa and others have a legitimate right to disagree with. But, it doesn't mean those people are wrong or racist.
posted by littleLebowski at 12:15 PM on November 04, 2005
These coaches can say what they want, I still think asserting that a black guy is faster than a white guy because he's black is pretty darn stupid.
posted by chmurray at 12:22 PM on November 04, 2005
So, by your logic rcade, it would be racist and controversial to say that in geenral black musicians have added significant contributions to American culture and influenced many varieties of music? If you add the clause "because they're black," yes. Otherwise, your unrelated example really shows up rcade.
posted by yerfatma at 12:29 PM on November 04, 2005
Why do this coach feel the need to express his views some what publicly? In America you can have whatever believes you choose to have but you do not need to voice them every where. It's the yelling fire in the crowded argument, just because you can does not mean you should. Can we also say that white folks make better ice skaters? Lil Lebowski I think a distinction can be made between cultural differences and physiologocal. People don't like to hear about physical differences between races because it shoots a hole throught the "we are all the same" theory. This statements are stupid because they throw the diffrences in race (good or bad) in our face. Completely unecessary. Blacks invented rock 'n' roll (Robert Johnson) no doubt, no question. Chuck Berry was the first "rock star".
posted by HATER 187 at 12:31 PM on November 04, 2005
I'm still trying to find where JoePa said "because they're black" ... You might argue that it's implied, but the words aren't there and I don't see the implication. And, I wasn't trying to show up rcade, he makes a legit agrument. I was just using a separate, but definitely related from a racial and sociteal standpoint, example to demonstrate that I slightly disagree. On the other hand, that's a very good and fair point, HATER. Interesting - thanks.
posted by littleLebowski at 12:44 PM on November 04, 2005
Although I know what you mean, HATER, I really think "rock and roll" as commonly understood (that's to say, as distinguishable from R&B) is a fusion of white and black music styles, and often built by rocker guys that happen to be white on the groundwork laid by great bluesmen that happen to be black. And let's not forget the influence of the brits! probably the whitest people there are.
posted by Venicemenace at 12:49 PM on November 04, 2005
Chuck Berry learned about rock and roll from his cousin, Marvin Berry, who learned about it from Marty McFly, a white guy.
posted by drjimmy11 at 01:20 PM on November 04, 2005
Venicemenace-those brit rockers (clapton,richards,paige) all influenced by Delta blues. I have to say whites might have perfected the fusion (Cream) Rock and/or roll is probably the only thing I like more than sports. drjimmy11 That was an alternate past reality sent off track by Doc Brown and the flux capicitor. I don't think it is fair to bring that up.
posted by HATER 187 at 01:42 PM on November 04, 2005
Chuck Berry learned about rock and roll from his cousin, Marvin Berry, who learned about it from Marty McFly, a white guy. Totally off subject, but funny as a mofo.
posted by grabofsky74 at 01:48 PM on November 04, 2005
I think Jimmy the Greek said it best when he made the point that blacks are better athletes because they were bread that way. (THIS IS ONLY A JOKE AND NOT MEANT TO OFFEND ANYONE. PLEASE DON"T HATE ME!)
posted by grabofsky74 at 01:51 PM on November 04, 2005
I'm going to say right now what most coaches (and Terrell Owens) should say when they're trying to express something but can't instantly articulate it: "I'll get back to you on this."
posted by jackhererra at 01:59 PM on November 04, 2005
Terrell Owens shouldn't say shit! That idiot ought to just keep his mouth shut and stop being such a bitch! Don't get me wrong, he is a hell of a football player, but he will never win a ring if he keeps running his mouth. Who would really go to a team like that and be subjected to an idiot like that.
posted by grabofsky74 at 02:07 PM on November 04, 2005
And, how have our fireside chats been any more enlightening than TO's lip-slapping?
posted by jackhererra at 02:36 PM on November 04, 2005
Folks - I must suggest that this notion that Black people invented the blues is a little simplified. American cultural history has always been one of the interplay and conflict between black people and white people (for lack of better identifiers - I'm really more pink than white). Black people got here about 40 years after white people. So their history is a shared history. Hence - there would be no blues without white people either. People now seem to be ascribing to the theory that if you're praising instead of damning when it comes to racial attributes, you're not being racist. Bullshit. It's all just poor generalizations that don't hold up under even a modicum of deeper observation. That black people have made great contributions to sports in America is not the least bit controversial. That they have done so because they're black most certainly is. Causation vs. corellation.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 03:28 PM on November 04, 2005
Folks - I must suggest that this notion that Black people invented the blues is a little simplified. American cultural history has always been one of the interplay and conflict between black people and white people (for lack of better identifiers - I'm really more pink than white). Black people got here about 40 years after white people. So their history is a shared history. Hence - there would be no blues without white people either. The interplay and conflict between white people and black people created a fertile ground for the invention of blues, but black people still invented it.
posted by bperk at 03:35 PM on November 04, 2005
I have a small rant that's grown enough I'm going to make a blog post out of it and not force it on you here, but I'd like to say that I'm so glad the Terrell Owens debacle is being folded into this thread. He's had enough Spofi-front-page time for one career. I hate the Eagles, but my heart goes out to Donovan McNabb. He's a good guy, and he deserves way better than this.
posted by chicobangs at 03:40 PM on November 04, 2005
The blues came from blacks being oppressed. So whites did have something to do with in a round-about sort of way. Blacks have given us the some of the greatest baseball/football/basketball players and some of the finest goons in hockey.
posted by HATER 187 at 03:56 PM on November 04, 2005
I'm so glad the Terrell Owens debacle is being folded into this thread. He's had enough Spofi-front-page time for one career. Guess I should've read this post first. Heh heh heh.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 03:58 PM on November 04, 2005
You know, TBH, if Brett Favre was using your account instead of you, you'd be perfect.
posted by chicobangs at 03:59 PM on November 04, 2005
Venicemenace-those brit rockers (clapton,richards,paige) all influenced by Delta blues. Actually, the stones and page were influenced by chicago electric blues. Not delta blues. Page himself stated that "we tried to be the sons of Howlin' Wolf".
posted by justgary at 04:01 PM on November 04, 2005
Actually, the stones and page were influenced by chicago electric blues. Not delta blues. Page himself stated that "we tried to be the sons of Howlin' Wolf". Howlin' Wolf was born in Mississippi, learned the Delta blues, and migrated north after his first hit. Once there, he (with others) transformed the Delta blues into the electric blues.
posted by bperk at 04:14 PM on November 04, 2005
Bperk, I'm well aware of blues history. Those bands influences were many, so delta blues is certainly among them. However, the records that the mentioned groups were most influenced were not delta blues. Yes, Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf being born in mississippi but having once played delta blues doesn't make what they did in chicago delta blues. Their electric/chicago blues were influenced by their early delta blues. But it wasn't, and isn't, delta blues. Therefore, what I said, that their influences were chicago/electric blues, and not delta blues, is correct.
posted by justgary at 04:22 PM on November 04, 2005
So, by your logic rcade, it would be racist and controversial to say that in geenral black musicians have added significant contributions to American culture and influenced many varieties of music? If you add the clause "because they're black," yes. Otherwise, your unrelated example really shows up rcade. Wouldn't the black experience have something to do with how artistic expression is conveyed?????
posted by Fade222 at 04:24 PM on November 04, 2005
Okay, so we're all in agreement that without rich white folks, the Blues and Jazz (and by extension, Ragtime, R & B, Rock and Roll, Funk and Hip Hop) would never have existed, right? Okay, good. If I've somehow moved to Bizarro World, I wanna at least get my bearings.
posted by chicobangs at 04:28 PM on November 04, 2005
Sounds about right.
posted by HATER 187 at 04:30 PM on November 04, 2005
When did I get redirected to "BluesFilter"?
posted by dyams at 04:53 PM on November 04, 2005
When Paterno's tempestuous comments were safely put back into the teapot from whence they came. Now everyone's just riffing.
posted by chicobangs at 05:04 PM on November 04, 2005
You know, TBH, if Brett Favre was using your account instead of you, you'd be perfect. Don't get me started; I'm still pissed off that nobody recognized my 100th post. Bastards.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 05:21 PM on November 04, 2005
off subject maybe, but I am damn glad I found this forum. I have been in far too many where the wit, knowledge, and humor of this level were sadly lacking. I really enjoy reading your posts... well most of them anyway.
posted by irunfromclones at 06:07 PM on November 04, 2005
I really enjoy reading your posts... well most of them anyway. Ever get the feeling that everybody is staring at you all of a sudden?
posted by The_Black_Hand at 10:28 PM on November 04, 2005
Bottom line,the reason I posted this, is that I feel that its really not news. JoePa's statement isnt worth mentioning. Yes our firends at ESPN and other places feel the need to "fan" the flames.
posted by daddisamm at 10:19 AM on November 05, 2005
The interplay and conflict between white people and black people created a fertile ground for the invention of blues, but black people still invented it. Yes - and it's been borrowed, stolen, given back, reshaped and given back again. It wasn't born in a vaccuum and didn't develop in one. That's really my point - we tend to think of American cultural history as being black or white, and I find that to be like intellectual segregation. It's all part and parcel - the blues is uniquely American and white people have as much to do with it as black people. Jewish people also played a large role. Fuck, I love the blues.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 10:56 AM on November 05, 2005
Bottom line, the reason I posted this, is that I feel that its really not news. JoePa's statement isnt worth mentioning. That sounds like a zen koan. Two can play at that game: I commented on your post because I did not feel like talking about it.
posted by rcade at 11:50 AM on November 05, 2005
You guys are funny.
posted by chicobangs at 11:58 AM on November 05, 2005
I commented on your post because I did not feel like talking about it. I enjoyed that one. I'm with you all the way. It's almost like sometimes people post just to hear themselves type.
posted by dyams at 12:14 PM on November 05, 2005
zen koan?? I am lost
posted by daddisamm at 01:33 PM on November 05, 2005
What is the sound of one hand not Googling?
posted by yerfatma at 03:24 PM on November 05, 2005
????????? ;-)
posted by daddisamm at 03:51 PM on November 05, 2005
Apples and oranges. JoePa's statements are just saying that black athletes have done a lot for sports. Not really controversial. He is also only talking about athletes. He isn't making generalizations about the entire race.