04/20/24
February 03, 2004
NBA All-Star reserves announced.: I'm quite pleased to see that Sam Cassell, Brad Miller, and Andrei Kirilenko (who makes less than $1M a year) were selected. Surpised to see LeBron go unselected, although I suppose that'll make the rookie/2nd year-ers game a little more exciting. ESPN's Marc Stein seems to disagree with the coaches though, and I'm with him concerning Ray Allen.
posted by Ufez Jones to basketball at 01:59 PM - 26 comments
I definitely think Ray Allen deserves to be an alternate, injuries notwithstanding. Yes he missed alot of ball at the beginning of the year but upon his return showed that he really is one of the top performers in the game. There sure are alot of unfamiliar names (to me!) on there. I'm looking forward to seeing Jamaal Magloire and Michael Redd for the first time.
posted by vito90 at 03:36 PM on February 03, 2004
Should a player be required to play in a minimum amount of the pre-All-Star games in order to be elected to the squad? I say yes. I voted online, and thought it was silly to see Chris Webber on the ballot. But really, the NBA All-Star game is a popularity contest. Vince Carter was the top vote getter, and there are probably 40-50 players that have played better this season.
posted by dusted at 03:49 PM on February 03, 2004
For the starters, I'll agree with you dusted. I gave up being angry about the fan voting last season, but the alternates are selected by the coaches (who can't vote for their own players). I don't put a whole lot of stock in the All-Star game, but it's really good to see people that have improved themselves this season selected by the coaches and getting their dues (like the three I mentioned in the post).
posted by Ufez Jones at 03:56 PM on February 03, 2004
I missed that discussion, Ufez, but I totally agree with you. I'm glad Baron Davis got in despite his lower numbers recently. He was putting up MVP numbers for the first quarter of the season.
posted by dusted at 04:40 PM on February 03, 2004
I got a column on the All-Star Selections (complete with breakdowns) coming along soon...
posted by lilnemo at 04:43 PM on February 03, 2004
If you had to watch Vince every night like I do, you'd be even more pissed off....
posted by smithers at 09:53 PM on February 03, 2004
Am I the only one somewhat surprised to find only two Lakers on these lists?
posted by forksclovetofu at 11:01 AM on February 04, 2004
dusted: Since you seem inclined to believe that Vince Carter is not among the top 40-50 players, I have to include you in the negative side of the bizarre polarization that surrounds him when it comes to fan perception. On the one hand, there are the fans who worship him and still think of him as the dunk champion, despite the fact that he's actually more of a perimeter jump shooter now and I can't remember the last time he dunked on someone. On the other hand, you have fans who think he's the most overrated player in the NBA, who hate him because he's "soft" and will probably never live up to his true potential. The truth is somewhere in between. Vince is 10th in the NBA in scoring this season, and playing for Kevin O'Neill, he's playing the best defence of his career. I watch him every game, and I can confirm that he is a Top 20 player (though not Top 10) and therefore belongs in the All-Star Game. It's ironic that Ray Allen was one of the people criticizing Vince when he was voted into this game last year when Vince had missed games due to injury. Now the shoe's on the other foot and Vince says nothing. Say what you will about his "softness", but Vince has more class than 90% of professional athletes.
posted by Scott Carefoot at 12:15 PM on February 04, 2004
Scott: While I appreciate your understanding of all things Raptor (you can check Scott's blog here), I have to respond to you on a few points.... Vince is classy: Agreed. I think he is one of the (if not *the*) classiest "star" player in the league. The only guys who might be classier are the quiet, lesser known guys like Avery Johnson or Michael Curry. Vince is in the Top 10 in the NBA in scoring this season: Obviously agreed, as this is fact. However, this is in a year that neither Kobe or Shaq qualify for the list (at this point), since they have missed so many games due to injuries. Vince is currently shooting the worst percentage of his career while his turnovers are up as well. Vince is not overrated: Absolutely disagree. This isn't just about whether Vince should have made the All-Star Game...it's whether he is a FRANCHISE player or not. Several guys made the All-Star Game who aren't purported to be franchise guys (eg. B.Miller, J.Magloire), but Vince is supposed to be one. I also watch him every game, and have a lifetime in basketball as a player and coach under my belt, and Vince will never lead a team to the NBA Championship as the franchise player. I can't put it any more plainly than that. But to elaborate, here are a few things: you mentioned already that he won't go the rack, but for a 3-man with those kind of ups, he also won't hit the offensive boards; his shot selection is absolutely horrendous -- I can't believe this guy actually made the acquaintance of Dean Smith; despite the fact that Vince has all sorts of class, the fact is that it is the rare superstar who is not a completely selfish prick -- I think he might be too nice to lead a team to win at the highest level; finally, there is that coaching intangible called body language -- if you watch him as much as you do, then you know exactly what I am talking about -- nowhere does his body language suggest that he believes he is a winner. You think that O'Neill and Grunwald wouldn't trade for Pierce, McGrady or Kobe in half a heartbeat? He plays the same position, is (was) put on the same pedestal as these guys and makes the franchise money ... and I don't think he is even close. To sum: Vince Carter is a great franchise player -- if you are talking about the business of professional sport entertainment? An overwhelming yes. Vince Carter is a great franchise player -- if you hope for him to lead you to an NBA Championship? Hardly.
posted by smithers at 01:00 PM on February 04, 2004
Scott, I'm not going to even pretend to have 1% of the knowledge you have about VC and the Raptors. I've watched Carter play in maybe a dozen games this season, and I have him on my fantasy team. From a statistical standpoint, he's ranked about 50 or 60 all season long, with a few weeks of better or poorer play. I know that statistics don't translate precisely to actual performance, but they do provide a baseline for comparison. Looking at his statistics, there is no way in hell he should be the top vote getter. Vince got 2,127,183 votes, and Kevin Garnett received 1,780,918. Huh? Lamar Odom, Donyell Marshall and Richard Jefferson have similar all-around numbers, but they weren't even on the ballot. Carter gets in every year on rep, popularity and name recognition, not on his performance.
posted by dusted at 02:58 PM on February 04, 2004
smithers: My point is that Vince is only overrated in the sense that he annually tops All-Star voting even though he's not even close to the best player. He's obviously overrated by the average NBA fan, but he's regularly raked over the coals unreasonably in the press and by people who, for example, would imply he's comparable to Donyell Marshall. dusted: Donyell Marshall has been a godsend for the Raptors, but he plays a different position than Carter so a direct comparison of their numbers isn't fair. Most PFs grab more rebounds than most SFs. And one of the main reasons Donyell has been such a prolific scorer lately is that he's left wide open when the opposition double-teams Vince. Also, I disagree that Glen Grunwald would trade Vince for Pierce, McGrady or Kobe. Pierce and McGrady wouldn't fill the Air Canada Centre like Vince does, and Kobe's rape trial wouldn't make it through Glen's "character filter".
posted by Scott Carefoot at 04:02 PM on February 04, 2004
I gotta jump in here on the Vince debate. Dusted when you say he's ranked only 50th statistically what does that mean? Is that part of the horrible fantasy rankings? Fantasy rankings are the ass-end of player comparison. Does he deserve the most votes? I couldn't care less. Even if all All Stars are selected by a commitee of GMs you'd see arguments. Vince is doubled every night. Shooting percentage? Gimme a break - one word: Iverson. He is NOT comparable to any of Marshall, Richardson or Odom. Have any of those guys even remotely approached the level of responsibility Vince has? Or the performances? It's one of my biggest peeves - the hype that Vince recieved (undeserved at the time) from ESPN early on and now the predictable lashback. as a 20-5-5 guy there aren't more than another 6 players in the league that do what he does. I think the biggest all-star snub has to be King James - he is/was (as of a couple weeks ago) the ONLY player in the L to average 20-6-6.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 04:59 PM on February 04, 2004
Scott, I was looking at forwards, since the NBA doesn't specify SF or PF. I'll concede your point about teams doubling VC and freeing up Donyell. Weedy, yes, I'm using fantasy rankings, and like I wrote above, I know that statistics don't translate precisely to actual performance, but they do provide a baseline for comparison. Things like "responsibility" are totally subjective. Performance can be measured objectively: take a look at the season averages, and tell me again that VC's "performances" aren't comparable to Marshall, Odom and Richardson.
| Player | MIN | FG% | FT% | 3PTM | PTS | OREB | REB | AST | ST | BLK | TO |
| Vince Carter | 37.3 | .413 | .803 | 1.1 | 21.3 | 1.4 | 4.7 | 4.6 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 3.1 |
| Donyell Marshall | 34.7 | .475 | .722 | 1.4 | 14.1 | 2.2 | 8.9 | 1.6 | 1.1 | 1.7 | 1.3 |
| Lamar Odom | 38.4 | .414 | .727 | 0.9 | 16.9 | 1.9 | 9.8 | 4.2 | 1.0 | 0.8 | 3.3 |
| Richard Jefferson | 38.3 | .493 | .778 | 0.5 | 16.9 | 1.3 | 5.8 | 3.4 | 1.3 | 0.4 | 2.3 |
posted by dusted at 06:26 PM on February 04, 2004
Richardson Jefferson.
posted by dusted at 07:10 PM on February 04, 2004
I don't like Vince. There. I said it. But... Some of these comparisons seem a tad unfair. Lets apply some context. dusted supplied some roughly equivalent F's in the EC who compare favorably to Vince, but aren't All-Stars (for the most part). ...I know that statistics don't translate precisely to actual performance, but they do provide a baseline for comparison... True. Now lets put these stats in context. In order:
- Donyell Marshall. Marshall has always been an effective scorer and rebounder but at 6-9 of course his numbers will reflect that he's a better rebounder. And it bears repeating, much of Donyell's offensive success is dependent on Vince. So you basicallly have a better than average scorer, and good rebounder. Is that enough for you to place him ahead of Kenyon Martin? Ron Artest? Jermaine O'Neal? He's not even the best player on his team. If you need further evidence check out the GSW records for the '98-'00 seasons where Donyell was a focal point in the offense. I rest my case.
- Lamar Odom, talentwise, is the closest comparison to Vince on this list. But, once again, Odom is also 4 inches taller than Vince which gives him the edge in rebounding and more post-up oppurtunities. Even then Odom's offensive numbers come up just shy of Vince. By the bye here are the Clippers records for the '00-'03 seasons when Lamar was the number one option. Not that much better than Donyell's is it? I don't seem to recall Vince ever being suspended for drugs on numerous occasions either. Lamar is inarguably the best player on the Heat's squad. But that doesn't really say too much does it?
- And finally, Richard Jefferson. Jefferson's body-type and athletecism resembles Vince's the most out of the list. But that may be the only similarity between the two. Jefferson's offensive numbers in themselves are the byproduct of Jason Kidd's brilliance. Pull Jefferson from the Nets and place him with a moderate point guard like say Tinsley or Lue and he would barely approach double digit scoring. He's a great energy player who runs the floor hard, and plays solid D. He's the EC version of Devean George, without the jumper. The only reason Jefferson's shooting percentage is so high is because Kidd regularly finds him on the break. If you give Vince the same 2 feet of room on the perimeter to shoot that defenders regularly give Jefferson and Vince may lead the league in scoring ( or attempts at the least). Once again, Jefferson isn't even the best player on his team much less the EC. This one ( to me) is a non-starter.
posted by lilnemo at 09:12 PM on February 04, 2004
Scott: ummm....I guess that means we agree? At least you highlighted a point for me: trying to win championships versus winning as a box office business. Vince is definitely the best pick for the latter.
posted by smithers at 10:56 AM on February 05, 2004
btw, welcome back weedy.....
posted by smithers at 10:58 AM on February 05, 2004
Where's that column, lilnemo?
posted by Ufez Jones at 11:19 AM on February 05, 2004
I haven't sent it yet. It should be up by the weekend tho'. I hope...
posted by lilnemo at 05:39 PM on February 05, 2004
Go easy on me; I'm coming down from back-to-back Iron Maiden concerts.
posted by lilnemo at 05:47 PM on February 05, 2004
Iron Maiden, eh? It'd be easier if it were Motorhead, but I guess I can let you off the hook. For now ;).
posted by Ufez Jones at 06:02 PM on February 05, 2004
Actually I caught this lineup (also back-to-back) up in SanFran:
- Motorhead
- Dio
- Iron Maiden
posted by lilnemo at 06:56 PM on February 05, 2004
lilnemo, you live in the SF area?
posted by billsaysthis at 07:38 PM on February 05, 2004
I remember Vince Carter doing a tour of China after his first big rehab stint. Do you think that extra vote popularity carries over on all of the "Yao Ming + whoever" ballots?
posted by jmevius at 03:27 PM on February 06, 2004
lilnemo, you live in the SF area? Nope. I live in Pasadena and work in Los Angeles.
posted by lilnemo at 04:33 PM on February 09, 2004
Should a player be required to play in a minimum amount of the pre-All-Star games in order to be elected to the squad? It could even be a low number, say 50%. I don't think that that's unreasonable. Another discussion point: I'm sure the vote was close between Brad Miller and Zac Randolph, both of whom have had great seasons so far and have improved a great amount. If you had the vote, who would you pick?