Answering in order: Tahoe, it is a disagreement over the value of an at-bat. I agree the chances are slim for that single AB to do much of anything -- but slim is greater than none, which is the value gained by the giving of a plate appearance to a 60-year-old comedian. As for the morale issue, if you need to have Shecky Greene come in and provide comic relief to boost your troops, something is seriously fucked up in your clubhouse. Bo, did you ask Rick Hummel? And if you did, the question you posed doesn't exactly frame my argument. The question would be more like: Could an outstanding at-bat for a borderline major leaguer earn him a bench spot, or at least make the organization be more likely to keep him around in the minors rather than waive him at the end of spring training? In my eyes, no one could honestly answer that question in the negative, and then logically, no club should be wasting at-bats. There's something to be gained from every one of them, and I don't mean in a touchy-feely lovefest sort of way. Oh, and if you see Jeff Gordon, tell him I said hi. Grum, none of what you listed is tangible proof. I wasn't actually expecting any, because I don't think it's possible to have it in this case, is it? It's all subjective, even if Crystal tears a hammy in the on-deck circle, Castro bats, homers and makes the team. The Yankees could still say, "Nah, we had him on the team the whole time." You use stats to make a good case for why Castro probably won't make the team, but I think you make my argument also by proving that it's something more than stats that keeps a ballplayer around. Who could possibly use the AB more than Castro, a guy the Yankees think highly enough of to have kept in Triple A all season last year even though they have Robinson Cano in front of him? The organization apparently sees something in Castro that keeps him useful to them. If anyone needs a place to show what he could do, it's Bernie, and if he doesn't get another at-bat before the end of the spring, that will mean Billy Crystal got 10% of his time at the dish. (Yes, yes, I know Damon was supposed to lead off. But Castro could have led off, or if Damon had led off the game, he might have been taken out after the third AB and Castro comes off the bench. Or someone else. It's a lost AB no matter who misses it, and I don't think -- especially in spring training -- that you can say, "Oh, that was Damon's AB he took.") I'll close that in Roger Angell's terrific Memories of Summer, he writes about Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis clowning around out on the field during spring training with the New York Giants. When the same request was made of the Cleveland Indians, general manager Hank Greenberg said, "Absolutely not. Do I send my ballplayers on to the sets of your damned movies?" I'd feel the same as a manager. I'm here to evaluate talent and run a ballclub. You want to hobnob with movie stars, go sit courtside with Jack. Where's erkno?
Who could possibly use the AB more than Castro, a guy the Yankees think highly enough of to have kept in Triple A all season last year even though they have Robinson Cano in front of him? You are misinterpreting his value to the Yankees. They don't think "highly" of him. He's minor league fodder. He's too old to be a prospect, and too bad to get any real major league chances. This guy is in AAA (quickly becoming the garbage dump for teams with crappy veterans or failed prospects, where AA is the true prospect storage area) to cheaply fill a roster spot. Someone has to play 2B for the Columbus Clippers. If Castro asks for more money, or demands a chance to play in New York, they'll simply cut him and grab some other roster-filler...unless there is a real prospect on the way, or Cano is down in AAA to rehab an injury. If anyone needs a place to show what he could do, it's Bernie, and if he doesn't get another at-bat before the end of the spring, that will mean Billy Crystal got 10% of his time at the dish. Or someone else. It's a lost AB no matter who misses it, and I don't think -- especially in spring training -- that you can say, "Oh, that was Damon's AB he took.") But you can. Crystal was the DH. Then Damon. If Castro had any future, he could have been in the lineup. Cano was the 2B. He was replaced by Alberto Gonzalez (no, not that guy). If Castro had any future, he could have replaced Cano. There were many chances for Castro to play that same game that Crystal did, and they didn't use him. You chose the wrong player to try and make an example of, wfrazerjr. You might have been able to make a point if you picked Chris Woodward (if he wasn't hitting a TON right now), or if Crystal had pitched (where innings are more important than at-bats), or if the team he batted for wasn't loaded with veterans and a virtually set lineup (instead of the Yankees, he batted for the Royals/Marlins). "Absolutely not. Do I send my ballplayers on to the sets of your damned movies?" I've never heard of that happening before. I think it would be a novel idea.
Bo, did you ask Rick Hummel? No, but if you're familiar with Rick Hummel, (the other) Jeff Gordon and The Post Dispatch, then you're third choice would be the right one. And if you did, the question you posed doesn't exactly frame my argument. Maybe not, but the build up I gave him, wfrazejr, you would be proud. I didn't short anyone's argument, yours included. I absolutely understand your point-of-view, I just don't think a MLB franchise is blind enough to let a player slip through the cracks if that player is capable of what you describe. Those professional attributes are what got the player to spring training in the first place.
Who could possibly use the AB more than Castro, a guy the Yankees think highly enough of to have kept in Triple A all season last year even though they have Robinson Cano in front of him? Castro wasn't in the Yankees organization last year. Columbus became the AAA team of the Nationals in '07 (Scranton is now the Yankees affiliate.) The Yanks signed Castro in off-season.
As I said earlier, if Crystal had been playing in an A league game, maybe even a AA game, you'd have more of a point about him taking the "career making" AB away from someone. As it was, it was the Yankee's Major League team. And, he took one of Damon's AB's. Damon will be on the roster, so no damage done. To speculate that Castro, or anyone else, was going to get that AB is silly. As grum pointed out, there were multiple opportunities had the Yankees wanted to see one more AB out of anyone. let it rest, it was a publicity stunt, nothing more.
Thanks for the correction, goddam. I still can't really figure out why the Yankees picked up Castro in the first place. So grum, why does the player matter? I chose Castro -- you choose Woodward. The same argument fits no matter where he bats in the lineup. It could be any Yankee, but whichever one you choose, they have one less AB for a publicity stunt. None of this takes into consideration my original point, and the other either I'm making really poorly or none of you believe -- you can't say with any certainty how one single AB is going to affect someone's future. I keep seeing it boiled down to, "That missed at-bat isn't going to make someone's career," which is not at all what I've been saying. I look at every at-bat as a possible more streamlined butterfly effect, one that doesn't spread to others, just to the player's career. If you've played any sport, you know many times success breeds success, and one good AB leads to confidence and another good AB. That's what I hate to see pulled from someone else -- the chance. I won't drag it out any more, but if you don't believe that's important, I understand. You believe organizations have everything covered to a point where each AB isn't particularly noteworthy, and I hope they do. I just wouldn't waste one anyway, and if I were running a team and you came to me wanting to do it, I'd have the same reaction Hank Greenberg did -- and you'd be canned. Grum, I'd say inviting in ballplayers to be ballplayers in a movie is a bit different than inviting comedians to be ballplayers in a game and not remotely close to the point I was making. However, maybe we can both agree that Derek Jeter and Wayne Gretzky should never appear on a sketch-comedy show again.
So wait, because of Billy Crystal, the Yankees cut Johnny Damon?
none, which is the value gained by the giving of a plate appearance to a 60-year-old comedian. I guess we just disagree on that one. if you need to have Shecky Greene come in and provide comic relief to boost your troops, something is seriously fucked up in your clubhouse. It doesn't have to bee need-based. While in business, these men are indeed playing a game. There's sometimes no replacement for the comeraderie and morale a simple act on the part of the front office can provide. Who knows what it's effect will be. Most of the kids on that team might have no freakin clue who Billy Crystal is, but some might have gotten a bit of a thrill out of hanging out and lacing up the spikes with the old guy from City Slickers and the Oscars. I think you underestimate the potential benefits of a diversion like this one. We definitely agree that Gretzky should stay away from sketch comedy and Jeter should never, ever be seen in a leather miniskirt again!
Grum, I'd say inviting in ballplayers to be ballplayers in a movie is a bit different than inviting comedians to be ballplayers in a game and not remotely close to the point I was making. However, maybe we can both agree that Derek Jeter and Wayne Gretzky should never appear on a sketch-comedy show again. Actually, the last link was Sandy Koufax appearing on a couple of television shows as just a bit player. Do you think the Studio Actors Guild complained about him taking the spot of some young actor? Maybe that appearance by the actor as "Policeman" could have shown the director that he is capable of standing still in the background, and opening doors and saying "Yes, sir." It isn't much, but it could have been enough to get him a regular role on a crime drama. So if Sandy Koufax is allowed to steal jobs from meaningless background actors, then I think it's fair that Billy Crystal is allowed to have one single at-bat in a spring training game.
Overall, I was impressed by the approach Crystal took to the entire event. He looked to be taking things seriously, even during workouts prior to the game, and actually didn't look any worse than most pitchers who go up and take cuts every National League game. In the end, he took part in one at-bat. This is still baseball, a game, not landing airplanes at LAX.
So a spring training AB is of the same importance as a non-speaking role on a TV show? I think that sums up our difference quite nicely. I agree, dyams. If there was anyone in the world who deserved this, it's Crystal, who has been a non-stop love fountain for the game since I can remember. He didn't look any worse than Willie McGee used to look on a few swings. The difference is, Willie might hit the next pitch at his shoetops for a triple in the gap.
So a spring training AB is of the same importance as a non-speaking role on a TV show? From the perspective of a struggling actor who had similar stuff happen to him - it's important. But it also happens all the time. Fraze, I appreciate the position, but I don't agree. The Yankees did this the 'right' way. They gave Crystal the spot of their starting centrefielder. Their back-up centre fielder is already assured a spot on the bench and probably will get 60-70 starts anyway (Cabrera). So there isn't an available spot there. They didn't supplant a middle infielder with a shot to make the big club, or entrench his status as first call-up. They used the DH. They used one at bat. The speculation that this one at bat could have changed the fortunes of a player in camp is as viable as the notion that the same player could have suffered an injury during the same chance (maybe he pulls a hammy running down the line? He misses the rest of spring training and and a younger guy gets called up from Single A to take his spot in Triple A.) It can happen both ways. Plus - how many spots do you think are open on this club? Far as I can tell, there are a few major leaguers who aren't going to make this team, let alone some other guy. And the truth is - Spring Training is now a bunch of known quantities and a chance to make sure guys are healthy. Most of the 'surprises' are found in winter ball and the Caribbean league and they get an invite to spring training based on that performance. I can appreciate the romantic idea of the 'just one chance' kinda story, but with the money invested in a lot of these players you'll see a guy like Castro come in and hit .400 over several at bats in the spring and still not make the team.
Wow, I just thot this was a fun story when I posted it. But you guys have taken it to another level. I'm not sure what that level is, but it sure ain't where I had it. My work here is done.
So, to summarize: I think many bright people here have proven that this is a really stupid fucking argument. (not to be construed with thread pissing)
Again, my point is that I think every AB counts. Everyone else in the world feels otherwise. I'm fine with that, and if that trip to the plate was going to be wasted (in my opinion), Billy Crystal's a fine guy to waste it on. Fair enough. Thanks for your input, THX. I'd say that despite my disagreeing with Grum, Weedy, Tahoe and BoKnows, the argument was carried out on both sides with honour and intelligent discourse. Feel free to go fuck yourself.
the argument was carried out on both sides with honour and intelligent discourse And according to Her Majesty's Rules for Sporting Discourse. Well, right up 'til the end anyway.
Yeah, well, upon reflection ... I should go fuck myself. Not for carrying out my argument (which should have been done with several of you over St. Patrick's Day pints), but for that unnecessary outburst. My apologies, THX.
Don't recall requesting an apology, 'fraze. I did look without luck for the honour and intelligent discourse part, though. In my defense, I was drunk as a sailor last night. Good to see I can start a fight from thousands of miles. Hope there's no hard feelings, Mr. wfrazerjr. I'm starting to needlessly piss people off around here. My work is nearly complete. Oh well, I best get busy. Fucking myself sounds like an all day job.
