FanDuel - WFBC

October 08, 2007

Bombed: New York Yankees Make Another Early Exit from Playoffs: Yankees who might no longer be in pinstripes after the team's elimination from the AL playoffs by the Cleveland Indians Monday night: Jorge Posada, Mariano Rivera, Alex Rodriguez, Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte and Manager Joe Torre.

posted by rcade to baseball at 11:20 PM - 104 comments

And all those teams were picked. Angels- heavy favorites. Cubs- favorites. Phils- heavy favorites against the Pads, break even against the Rockies. Yet the Indians were always picked. BTW, all those players will be gone plus Giambi. Torre as well. Art Howe, Bobby Valentine, Ken Macha, Dusty Baker all out there. Mattingly or Girardi will replace Torre. I can see Macha in Pitt, or some tunnel with no light like Texas. I think Torre will be the only playoff manager fired.

posted by SFValley_Dude at 12:33 AM on October 09

I deleted a comment by a longtimer directing an obscenity my way in response to the post. If you can't comment here after your team's crushing defeat without taking your hostility out on SportsFilter members, step away from the keyboard. The New York Yankees are the most storied team in American sports. Their early exit is more newsworthy than the Phillies, Angels and whoever the third team was. By a factor of 100.

posted by rcade at 12:40 AM on October 09

Can we please keep the comments constructive? If your only comment is that you hate the yankees, please take it elsewhere.

posted by justgary at 12:49 AM on October 09

Wow! I think it was posted due to the amount, and caliber of players, plus the fact that Torre that could be leaving. Personally, I think "The Boss" is a few fries short of a happy meal if he gets rid of Torre. You are going to be hard pressed to find someone that can handle all of those different high paid personalities, the management, the media, the fans, and still keep a team like that* together. It says a lot for Joe what some of those names on that list said about keeping him. I watched the news conference after the game tonight also. I have to say that Joe Torre was one hell of a stand up guy. He gave credit where it was due, did not bitch about the bad calls from the umps(they did not make much of a difference though), and refused to get into the stuff about him and Steinbrenner. He also spoke highly of his team, which he should have. Steinbrenner just needs to wake up and realize that this was probably one of, if not the, best seasons Torre has had as a manager for the Yanks. They were 43 - 43 at the all star break, 9.5 games out of first in the East, and 6 out of the wild card. They finished only 2 games out of first and 6 games ahead of the next wild card contender. Damn good season Mr. Torre. All of this from an Indian fan. I will now go and buy a new keyboard, one that has never typed anything good about the Yanks again! *Nothing bad was meant by this, I just would not want to handle all those personalities at once. Much less try to get them to play ball with each other.

posted by jojomfd1 at 12:58 AM on October 09

Dusty Baker should NOT be mentioned as a possible replacement.

posted by whodat at 01:01 AM on October 09

And all those teams were picked. Angels- heavy favorites. Cubs- favorites. Phils- heavy favorites against the Pads, break even against the Rockies. Yet the Indians were always picked. The Tribe and the Angels were never picked as favorites, nor where the Cubs. The only time for the Tribe may have been after game 2, but it's too late then. Oh, and the Pads are not even in the playoffs!

posted by jojomfd1 at 01:12 AM on October 09

Big Stein has no one to blame but his brain Brian Cashmen. The Yankee farm system has suffered over the years when the Cash-man traded the best talent off for older star players who only lasted a few years. Yes, the Yankees did bring up a lot of great farmhands this season, but prior to this season, it would have been impossible- they were all traded away. Before this season, the Yankee triple-A farm team was in Columbus Ohio and finished last in their devision 4 straight years. How do you expect to win if your farm system stinks? The Yankee team is now old. Great guys, great players, but not as young as the Indians. Joe did a great job this season (and as a matter of fact- this season was his best as a Yankee manager).Big Stein, before you fire Joe, consider getting rid of Cashman, your lousy ex-son in law and yourself.

posted by clipperjoe at 01:47 AM on October 09

the oddmakers had the cubs favorites to win the series. Arizona was favorite to win only game 1.

posted by whodat at 01:55 AM on October 09

I have always seen two clear opinions on Torre. Either a. the guy makes the playoffs ever year so you have to consider him a good manager or b. with far and away the highest payroll year after year you are entitled to expect more. It seems like for Stienbrenner the second school of thought may have finally won out.

posted by kyrilmitch_76 at 05:25 AM on October 09

I'm always glad to see the Yankees go out early, but I definitely don't think the problem is Torre. The problem is not enough Paul O'Neill/Tino Martinez/David Cone type guys on the team. The last time the Yankees were great, they had a bevy of clubhouse leaders who would push the other guys to be better. While they do have a number of very good players, they are just lacking that essential quality.

posted by psmealey at 05:48 AM on October 09

Perhaps some credit ought to be directed towards the Indians. It's understandable why the national media is all "Yankees Yankees Yankees", but the Tribe is a young team that is just getting better.

posted by avogadro at 06:06 AM on October 09

The last time the Yankees were great, they had a bevy of clubhouse leaders who would push the other guys to be better. Also, after winning the World Series 4 times, the Yankees payroll just kept increasing to the degree it is now. Having the highest payroll in the league does not gaurantee a World Series victory, having great leaders that will continue to fight no matter what the outcome looks like is what makes for a great team....that and pitching.

posted by BornIcon at 06:15 AM on October 09

I deleted a comment by a longtimer directing an obscenity my way in response to the post. If you can't comment here after your team's crushing defeat without taking your hostility out on SportsFilter members, step away from the keyboard. That's entirely legit -- and yet, one does wonder why post a FPP calling out the team that exited at 1-3, and nothing about the three teams that went 0-3. Perhaps a wee bit of Yankee-specific schadenfreude? Whatever, there's no argument with the fact that they should have done much better in the playoffs than they did, ever since 2001. I call it the Bronx Curse of 9/11, myself. If you consistently leave your bats at home, you're not gonna win many games.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 06:22 AM on October 09

The Yankee farm system has suffered over the years when the Cash-man traded the best talent off for older star players who only lasted a few years. Yes, the Yankees did bring up a lot of great farmhands this season I'm having a bit of trouble with this logic. Cashman did a great job of staying the course this year and Hughes, Chamberlain, Cabrera and Cano were all contributors. Seems like when he wasn't forced by The Boss to make a big free agency splash, he did just fine. "The old dynasty finally fell, and for good Monday night in the Bronx." I really liked Howard Bryant when he was with the Boston Herald, but he's turned into a typical national nonsense voice since getting to ESPN. How can you declare the Yankees dead? Assuming A-Rod and Posada come back, they're fine. Perhaps a wee bit of Yankee-specific schadenfreude? Oh please. Which of those series was even interesting? The Red Sox did just as expected, the Cubs sucked throughout and the Rockies are like a force of nature right now. The Yankees and Indians was the only series that had any drama to it. I think I slept through a fair part of the Sox/ Angels.

posted by yerfatma at 06:27 AM on October 09

Perhaps a wee bit of Yankee-specific schadenfreude? Not really. These Yankees have such hopeless pitching I almost feel sorry for them.

posted by rcade at 06:38 AM on October 09

Will be interesting to see how much rebuilding Steinbrenner tolerates. He could, of course, blow up the team, let all those listed go (and more- Giambi?), and tolerate a much smaller payroll and perhaps fewer wins. But I'm guessing he doesn't, and Posada, Rivera, A-Rod, and maybe even Pettite come back, along with a couple high-priced free-agent pitchers.

posted by tieguy at 07:09 AM on October 09

Two thoughts. 1. How in the world can yankee management come out and basically say that torre has to win or he's fired and think that's a good thing? Why put more pressure on the players? It's just bizarre. 2. As always it came down to pitching. It's amazing that the yankees made the series as competitive as they did with their game one and four starter having a 19.06 ERA and their game 3 starter an ERA of 11.57. In games 3 and 4 neither got out of the second inning. Clemens limping off with an injury in a big game was easily predictable and it was a mistake for the Yankees to trust him, but Wang pitching so badly in two games was surprising and difficult to overcome. If their young pitchers are as good as they appear the yankees will be a much better team when they replace clemens and moose. They could be scary. And Torre probably won't be around to reap the benefits.

posted by justgary at 07:10 AM on October 09

I should add that I think I'm finally beginning to buy the 'A-Rod is a choker' thing. Or at least he's brutally overpaid. Yes, every Yankee hitter sucked this series, but he's the only one who got paid $27M to suck, which has to mean something. [Of course, Giambi and Jeter got paid $23M and $21M to suck even more than A-Rod did, so maybe I'm being harsh...] For reference, ESPN salary chart for the yankees and ESPN batting chart for the series, sorted by OPS. Tangentially, I do think that the end of this Yankees era is incredibly significant - Torre has won more post-season games than any manager in history - so if I were an Indians fan, I wouldn't be too bitter about the media coverage of his quasi-firing. They'll still be talking about the Indians this weekend, and they won't be talking about Torre.

posted by tieguy at 07:27 AM on October 09

Oh please. Which of those series was even interesting? The Red Sox did just as expected, the Cubs sucked throughout and the Rockies are like a force of nature right now. The Yankees and Indians was the only series that had any drama to it. I think I slept through a fair part of the Sox/ Angels. Really? I'm not doubting that you found it a snooze, but I really didn't find the Yankees-Indians series to be very dramatic either, just kinda sad. Strongly agreed on the Rockies. My money is on the Rockies and Sox to meet in the WS, and then we shall see something truly worth seeing.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:34 AM on October 09

I should add that I think I'm finally beginning to buy the 'A-Rod is a choker' thing. Or at least he's brutally overpaid. Yes, every Yankee hitter sucked this series, but he's the only one who got paid $27M to suck, which has to mean something. [Of course, Giambi and Jeter got paid $23M and $21M to suck even more than A-Rod did, so maybe I'm being harsh...] Well, since the Yankees are only paying about $20M of Rodriguez' money, it means Jeter and Giambi do suck worse on a Yankees dollars per value ratio. I agree with those above who suggest that this is the story of the playoffs thus far. Maybe with more compelling series in the other match-ups, it wouldn't be so, but -- for better or worse -- it is. I think the Yankees are going to be fine next year. I think Rodriguez is going to go, but Mariano and Posada will be back. Pettitte possibly as well. The Yankees are going to have a very good, young rotation with Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy and Wang. It will be a new look Yankees over the next several years -- I think the recent vintage Yankees who will beat you by outslugging you will be replaced with a strong pitching team. The Yankees may miss the playoffs one of these years, but hey -- welcome to the club. They will still be in the upper echelon of teams, and primarily because of their farm system, not in spit of it (as suggested above). Somewhat related, here's an interesting write-up on Steinbrenner's competency, Torre's job security, and the relative worth of managers/coaches in different sports vs. the amounts they are paid.

posted by holden at 07:56 AM on October 09

Assuming A-Rod and Posada come back, they're fine. Assuming they do come back is not a gaurantee that they will.

posted by BornIcon at 07:58 AM on October 09

Even if Posada comes back, he's due to start falling apart at some point. The Yankees might be better served going young at C, unless they can get Posada to sign a reasonably-priced, short deal. If Rivera comes back (he should) I wonder if he slips into the role of setup man for Joba. If he doesn't come back to the Yankees, he should just buy a rocking chair and sit on the porch at Cooperstown until they let him in.

posted by tieguy at 08:39 AM on October 09

Assuming they do come back is not a gaurantee that they will. In the future, there's probably no need to emphasize my point. Wang pitching so badly in two games was surprising and difficult to overcome. I don't know about that. It frustrates me that Wang dominates the Red Sox (and others); his K/9 ratio suggests he's a middling pitcher who's going to get beat up now and again, but the results have been otherwise for two years. I know he's a sinkerball pitcher, but even Derek Lowe had a decent strikeout rate when he was going well. As sinkerballers in these playoffs go, Webb and Carmona are far better bets long-term.

posted by yerfatma at 09:02 AM on October 09

From Rovell's sportbiz blog, as a followup to my earlier salary comment:

It's worth noting that the Cleveland Indians, who beat the Yankees in three out of four games, field their best starting team for $28,114,527. C.C Sabathia $8,750,000 Grady Sizemore $916,667 Asdrubal Cabrera $114,760* Travis Hafner $4,000,000 Victor Martinez $3,200,000 Ryan Garko $383,100 Jhonny Peralta $1,000,000 Kenny Lofton $6,000,000 Casey Blake $3,750,000
So, yeah... the Indians entire best position-player lineup makes less than Jeter, Giambi, or A-Rod. Throw in the Yankee's 40% luxury tax, and that lineup makes less than Pettite, Clemens (even in the shortened season), or Abreu. They narrowly edge out Damon and Matsui, who with luxury tax cost the Yankees organization $18.2M each to the Indian's lineup $19.3M. Insane.

posted by tieguy at 09:23 AM on October 09

I should add that I think I'm finally beginning to buy the 'A-Rod is a choker' thing. Or at least he's brutally overpaid. When a solo home run is your first postseason RBI since 2004, and you play for a team that defines itself entirely by postseason success, you're way overpaid. How many titles would this team have won in the past three years if October A Rod played like regular season A Rod? I don't get it at all.

posted by rcade at 10:23 AM on October 09

In the future, there's probably no need to emphasize my point. You consider that emphasizing your point? It was more clarifying what you were trying to say.

posted by BornIcon at 10:49 AM on October 09

Apparently if (as seems likely) Torre is fired, La Russa wants the Yankees job. I think the Cardinals are moving in a different direction (some sort of rebuild) and Tony's probably not the best manager to oversee that process. (Walt Jocketty was probably not the best GM to do so, either, and I believe that had a lot to do with him being let go.) I don't know that he's the best fit for the Yankees, though, considering his penchant for playing veterans over better youngsters -- particularly pitchers. If this happens, I wonder if that means Guidry is out as pitching coach and Duncan comes along with Tony? I've always viewed them as a package deal. If Duncan were to take over, at least Yankees fans could look forward to that Dave Duncan magic that makes a Jeff Weaver a World Series clinching pitcher or Joel Piniero the guy to knock the Mets out of the playoffs. Of course, the Yankees may not have the same need for the cheap reclamation projects as did the Cardinals of recent years.

posted by holden at 11:28 AM on October 09

The last several years of the Yankees remind me of the Braves near the end of their run. At least the Braves could blame the Yankees a couple of times, though not since 1999.

posted by drumdance at 11:40 AM on October 09

It was more clarifying what you were trying to say. You're the best, bud. Keep up the great work.

posted by yerfatma at 12:01 PM on October 09

Perhaps some credit ought to be directed towards the Indians. It's understandable why the national media is all "Yankees Yankees Yankees", but the Tribe is a young team that is just getting better. Seems that way to me, as well. But let's reserve judgment until we see how they do against the Sox. Steinbrenner ought to do the same as well. If the Indians are the worldbeaters they appear to be and win the ALCS and maybe even the World Series then that ought to factor into whatever decisions are made about Torre. And as good as Torre is, sometimes after 13 years, a team just needs to move on. A guy like Girardi could be the change of pace the Yankees need. Or he could crash and burn in a year or two. Or he could do both and be the next coming of Billy Martin.

posted by cjets at 01:11 PM on October 09

You're the best, bud. Keep up the great work. Hey pal, anytime.

posted by BornIcon at 01:26 PM on October 09

I put the blame much more on Jeter- team captain, worse performance from someone who is supposed to be "Mr. Postseason"- than Arod. As a Yanks fan, I hope Torre stays, but Steinbrenner just isn't a rational person. I came to NYC having grown up a Phillies fan, which in the 80's was not easy. I became a Yanks fan when Torre took over, and it's been an amazing tenure. I think Posada will be back, but as 1B. Who's going to sign him as a starting catcher at this point? He's got a year, maybe two, left behind the plate, but he's a good bat and a solid teammate. I hope Arod comes back- he's a dirty, dirty player, but he's amazing to watch perform every night. The problem is not enough Paul O'Neill/Tino Martinez/David Cone type guys on the team. Definitely true, but you can see this coming together around Cano, Cabrera, and (to a lesser extent) Abreu. I think Melky would move into the dugout if he could.

posted by MKUltra at 01:54 PM on October 09

Personally, I think "The Boss" is a few fries short of a happy meal if he gets rid of Torre. You are going to be hard pressed to find someone that can handle all of those different high paid personalities, the management, the media, the fans, and still keep a team like that* together. It says a lot for Joe what some of those names on that list said about keeping him. I watched the news conference after the game tonight also. I have to say that Joe Torre was one hell of a stand up guy. He gave credit where it was due, did not bitch about the bad calls from the umps(they did not make much of a difference though), and refused to get into the stuff about him and Steinbrenner. He also spoke highly of his team, which he should have. I agree wholeheartedly. I can't see how Torre mismanaged this series. When 1-9 you can't get a back-to-back hit until game 3, it's not really the manager's fault. Not to mention all the good stuff said above. It's funny to me how people easily foget how big a turnaround this team had this year. From May 29th on they played something like .750 ball. I'd credit the Indians for all the two out hits, and lay blame on the feet of the pitchers. This was always the Yankees' weak link, and it was revealed (with apologies to Pettite). Also - the Yankee farm system (Hughes, Joba, Cano, Cabrera, etc.) were well represented in this series. It's the old guard that sucked. Jeter included. I too hope for a Sox/Rockies final - because the Rockies are a pile of fun, and the Sox should be able to pitch with the Indians.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 02:15 PM on October 09

Seems that way to me, as well. But let's reserve judgment until we see how they do against the Sox. Steinbrenner ought to do the same as well. If the Indians are the worldbeaters they appear to be and win the ALCS and maybe even the World Series then that ought to factor into whatever decisions are made about Torre. Mighty good point that. Everyone connected with the enterprise has microphones being shoved in their faces right now asking for reaction, Steinbrenner included, so you're going to get comments...but there's no reason not to wait a few weeks before acting.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 02:27 PM on October 09

I have been watching ESPN and ESPNEWS since last night and pretty much the entire list minus Posada and my call Giambi are being predicted out. I watched Schaap today and he was saying that Showalter leads leads the list outisde Mattingly, claiming Girardi is not really an option, and that Valentine and La Russa are the other candidates, but he claimed that Valentine will not leave Japan before he gets all the cash and that tony will leave Cards, but they will not offer Joe's job to him because he can't get along with Cashman. So it will be Mattingly, if not Showalter. I can also envision Bonds a Yanke (God forbid) next season, especially if A-Rod and his albatross mistress and contract go away (the Angels want him very bad, the Dodgers want him more). Also, a Giambi exit will likely create a lot of Bonds talk.

posted by SFValley_Dude at 03:01 PM on October 09

Bonds? Bonds? That is crazy talk. Brilliantly amusing crazy talk. But crazy talk nonetheless.

posted by tieguy at 03:54 PM on October 09

As a reporter outisde Dodger Stadium said the othr week, Barry Bonds is over. A controversial and historic career is over. Unless the Angels are desperate and sign him, assuming he accepts a small salary. About the Yankees, as one of those calling the game said, everything must end, even good things, historically good things, historically long dynasties, like more traditional dynasties must end. Did the pats dynasty not end? Did the Lakers dynasty not end? Did the Red Wings dynasty not end last decade? They all ended. From their ashes, the Colts and Spurs have risen. From the ashes of the Yankees, somebody will rise.

posted by SFValley_Dude at 04:03 PM on October 09

From the ashes of the Yankees, somebody will rise. Which could very well be the yankees.

posted by justgary at 04:11 PM on October 09

When zero starting pitchers get past the 5th inning in a short series your probably not going to be able to beat the other squad to the 3 wins needed to advance. This was more a failure of a pitching staff that just wasn't good then a failure of an offense. Should be an interesting off season for the Yankee Fans here on SportsFilter.

posted by skydivedad at 04:22 PM on October 09

Did the Red Wings dynasty not end last decade? Depending on how one measures these things, you could say it ended about 2002-03.

posted by holden at 04:38 PM on October 09

When zero starting pitchers get past the 5th inning in a short series your probably not going to be able to beat the other squad to the 3 wins needed to advance. Pettitte actually lasted 6 1/3 in game 2 giving up 1 run, but I agree, the Yankees' pitching otherwise wasn't much to get excited about.

posted by bender at 05:00 PM on October 09

Am I the only one who started thinking 'Was it over when the Germans attacked Pearl Harbor?' about half-way through SFValley_Dude's last comment?

posted by tieguy at 05:24 PM on October 09

Am I the only one who started thinking 'Was it over when the Germans attacked Pearl Harbor?' about half-way through SFValley_Dude's last comment? All I thought was, "Shouldn't the Pats not win the Superbowl for at least 5 years before the "Dynasty" is declared over?"

posted by jerseygirl at 05:54 PM on October 09

Good to see the Yankees have an early exit from the playoffs.But hearing that ole George giving Torre the "win or your fired" demand I think is way too much to ask for a manager who puts the best lineup he has on the field every game.Unfortunately, his players didn't come through for him in a must win situation,therefore he will more than likely lose his job as manager.With the highest payroll in baseball,I think he should take a good look at the players that he pays to win them games,whether it's A-Rod,Posada,Jeter etc,before pulling the plug on Torre.I think that you are going to see a major roster shake up in the Bronx before spring training starts.Maybe start with some pitching?

posted by Ghastly1 at 05:56 PM on October 09

I have been watching ESPN and ESPNEWS since last night No wonder the Germans beat the Mets at Pearl Harbor. Turn the tv off and pick up a newspaper. Just shows to go ya that even the highest paid roster in baseball still has to play ball. The Yankees were out-classed, out-coached, and out-played. Why is this even news? The Yankees were jaded by success and the Indians were young and hungrier. As a Giants fan I would be happy to trade Bonds for Torre. I'd even slip Barry the plane fare and add a lobster dinner and a jar of Clear.

posted by irunfromclones at 06:10 PM on October 09

The Yankees were out-classed What does that even mean? Please explain.

posted by justgary at 06:13 PM on October 09

Did the Red Wings dynasty not end last decade? Ten years ago the Red Wings won the first of what would be three championships in six years. They've made the playoffs in every year of the past ten years. So no it hasn't ended. For that matter neither has the Pats dynasty (if you can call it that).

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 06:14 PM on October 09

Am I the only one who started thinking 'Was it over when the Germans attacked Pearl Harbor?' about half-way through SFValley_Dude's last comment? Great reference, tieguy. I wonder how many readers will get it and how many will think you're just really bad at history. Perhaps instead of firing Torre, Steinbrenner could just put him on double-secret probation?

posted by gdvbranz at 06:22 PM on October 09

out·class [ owt klįss ] (past and past participle out·classed, present participle out·class·ing, 3rd person present singular out·class·es) transitive verb Definition: outdo: to be so much better than others as to seem to be in a separate class altogether Out-classed, as in bringing a knife to a gunfight. Out-classed, as in bringing a go-kart to the Indy 500. Does that help?

posted by irunfromclones at 06:24 PM on October 09

Did the pats dynasty not end? No. They lost to the Colts last year in part b/c their top receiver dropped two wide open passes in the breadbasket to win the game. He has been let go, the defense (which was good last year) was upgraded, and they now have four wideouts that are all better than Caldwell (the guy who was let go). Have you watched them at all this year? The dynasty isn't over: in fact, this may be their best team yet.

posted by brainofdtrain at 07:00 PM on October 09

Does that help? Depends on the question. It doesn't seem to help with the one at hand though: "What the hell does that mean in terms of winning baseball games."

posted by yerfatma at 07:22 PM on October 09

"What the hell does that mean in terms of winning baseball games." It helps to be specific. Out-classed in the context of winning baseball games means that the Indians pitching was in a different class, their batting was in a different class, their fielding was in a different class, their coaching was in a different class.

posted by irunfromclones at 07:28 PM on October 09

I wonder how many readers will get it and how many will think you're just really bad at history. I unfortunatley am among the latter.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 07:58 PM on October 09

"Am I the only one who started thinking 'Was it over when the Germans attacked Pearl Harbor?' about half-way through SFValley_Dude's last comment? posted by tieguy at 5:24 PM CDT on October 9" Duh, duh, duhhhhh???? I read somewhere that it was the Japanese that attacked Pearl Harbor. Don't get your drift when you include that sad event into an otherwise entertaining filter.

posted by Cave_Man at 08:09 PM on October 09

the Indians pitching was in a different class, their batting was in a different class, their fielding was in a different class, their coaching was in a different class Are you saying the Yankees got schooled? That's a lot of classes, yet no classification. I read somewhere that it was the Japanese that attacked Pearl Harbor. Note the quotes.

posted by yerfatma at 08:12 PM on October 09

"No. They lost to the Colts last year in part b/c their top receiver dropped two wide open passes in the breadbasket to win the game. He has been let go, the defense (which was good last year) was upgraded, and they now have four wideouts that are all better than Caldwell (the guy who was let go)." Imagine what would be if Randy Moss had been in Caldwell's spot last January? Moss has vacuum cleaners for hands, anything that come near him that can be caught gets sucked up.

posted by Cave_Man at 08:13 PM on October 09

Steinbrenner is an idiot. An open checkbook owner but still an idiot. To get rid of Torre is a disgrace for all that he has done. Torre did not lose the series, often times teams are outplayed for a series (or a season). The Indians played well, deserved to win and hats off to them from a Yankee fan.

posted by urall cloolis at 08:34 PM on October 09

I doubt the Yanks will rise from this. Remember hw many people believed the Marlins would be a dynasty four long years ago? Th Tiges a year ago, and they never won it all! Nobody knows who the next dynasty will be. Of the teams going now, if an AL team wins it all, there will be dynasty talk. As for the present, the sports radios here in the Bay say that A Rod will opt out, and that La Russa will be Ynakees manager next year, 99% they seem to be sure. I had my money on Mattingly, and my neighbor on Showalter.

posted by Joe188 at 09:07 PM on October 09

Duh, duh, duhhhhh???? I read somewhere that it was the Japanese that attacked Pearl Harbor. Sheesh. Have you been living in a cave or something?

posted by Mr Bismarck at 09:17 PM on October 09

Out-classed in the context of winning baseball games means that the Indians pitching was in a different class, their batting was in a different class, their fielding was in a different class, their coaching was in a different class. But you previously said: The Yankees were out-classed, out-coached, and out-played. Which is why I thought out-classed must mean something different than out-coached and out-played. If out-classed means out-coached and out-played, why do you need both? Regardless, game two could have gone either way. Take away the bugs and there's a good chance the yankees win that game. Which means they would have gone into game 4 ahead 2 games to 1. That seems strange for a team that was outclassed.

posted by justgary at 09:43 PM on October 09

Joe Torre should stay as manager. That way, it will be a lock for the Yankees not to make the World Series every year.

posted by brickman at 09:47 PM on October 09

A sure sign that the world is about to end: In the 9th inning of the last game, the Yankee fans booed Derek Jeter more than Alex Rodriguez when they walked back to the dugout.

posted by grum@work at 09:49 PM on October 09

They lost to the Colts last year in part b/c their top receiver dropped two wide open passes in the breadbasket to win the game Which, of course, could only happen after the Chargers basically giving them the previous game. But I agree its silly to say the Pats dynasty is over.

posted by drumdance at 09:54 PM on October 09

Don't get your drift when you include that sad event into an otherwise entertaining filter. The reference to Germans attacking Pearl Harbor comes from the movie Animal House.

posted by drumdance at 09:57 PM on October 09

It seems that there is plenty of blame to go around for the Yankees' defeat, and the SpoFites have found plenty of heads to nominate for execution. Torre played the hand he was dealt. Some have said that he did not play it well, but given what he had to work with for starting pitchers and a bullpen, he did what he could. The NY hitting was not good in the series, but don't forget that they were up against a very tough pitching staff. I do believe that A-Rod deserves a healthy share of blame for his historically bad post-season performance. I contrast his efforts to what Ortiz and Ramirez did to the Angels. Both seem to have elevated themselves in the playoffs. It remains to be seen if this can continue against Cleveland, but my betting is that it will. One other name coming in for some criticism is Brian Cashman. I agree that many of his moves over the past several years have resulted in NY having a lot of aging, overpaid stars at the price of young talent. The same modus operandi by Dan Duquette placed Boston into a competetive slump until the John Henry ownership group and Theo Epstein's management turned it around. However, I don't think that it is all Cashman's doing. How many of his moves were dictated by Steinbrenner's insistence on obtaining a certain player? Too, some of Cashman's moves with young talent can be seen to be about to pay off. All-in-all, it seems that the Yankees' post-season woes of the past few years must be considered a result of ownership's attitudes and desires for the team. By the way, the Germans really did attack Pearl Harbor. They disguised themselves well and spent many hours learning Japanese. the whole idea was to get Japan blamed for the whole thing.

posted by Howard_T at 10:26 PM on October 09

I think Posada will be back, but as 1B I thinks Sloth...er....Duncan should start at 1B. I'd like to see Jorge come back so long as it is a short term deal.

posted by HATER 187 at 01:08 AM on October 10

La Russa is all but in. Rivera and Posada are gone in that case, Pettitte and Clemens are gone even if Torre had survived. A-Rod seems to be gone I think that if La Russa is hired, chances are higher than Giambi will be gone because he seems less tolerant of an ex-cheater as opposed to Mattingly, Showalter, Valentine, Showalter. I think Girardi also would want Giambi out. I cannot believe that when everyone wants Mattingly in New York, the Boss is choosing La Russa, but he is the Boss.

posted by Joe188 at 03:29 PM on October 10

I am not an Indians fan but I picked them to win the World Series before the playoffs started and I am picking them now. The"Boss" in NY is a few sandwiches shy of a picnic if he thinks Joe is the problem. As a Cardinal fan I can only say if Tony leaves.......welcome back Joe!

posted by shudacudawuda at 05:22 PM on October 10

Take away the bugs and there's a good chance the yankees win that game. No offense JG, but that game still could have gone either way with the bugs. They were out there while Carmona was pitching also. It was wierd the bugs never came into the stands where we were sitting and bothered us at all though, and I don't think they got much of the crowd at all, if any. The bugs were only out due to the very unusually warm october weather that night. When my best friend and I pulled into a parking spot at the Jake for that game my thermometer in my truck said 89 degrees still, that was at 4:30. It did not cool off a whole lot that evening. Hell just be glad it wasn't snow! The real story of game 2 though is Fausto Carmona, he pitched his ass off. His 113 pitch in the 9th inning was still 95 MPH. What a turn around from last year. He is going to be awesome in years to come I hope. I enjoyed watching him pitch this year a lot.

posted by jojomfd1 at 05:34 AM on October 11

No offense JG, but that game still could have gone either way with the bugs. Well, it came out a little wrong. I was in no way saying that the bugs cost the yankees the game. Both teams played under those conditions. I simply meant that it was a very tight, strange game that could have gone either way. If New York pulls it out that series could completely change. That's why I didn't agree with the whole out-classed comment.

posted by justgary at 06:34 AM on October 11

I wasn't sure, as you know some media outlets have played up the bugs, and not the true story of that game. That game was one hell of a pitchers duel! With a pitcher as young as Carmona in his first post-season game to boot. Both SP's derserve a lot of credit. I didn't think you meant it badly.

posted by jojomfd1 at 06:51 AM on October 11

I've been confused by the bug story. The stuff I've read about it gave the impression the bugs went for a beer while the Indians were pitching and were only interested in Jabba's sweaty neck. Were they all wearing tiny Indian jerseys or just a one-inning swarm?

posted by Mr Bismarck at 07:10 AM on October 11

I wouldn't agree with the out-classed statement either. Clutch two outs was the biggest difference in that series.

posted by jojomfd1 at 07:12 AM on October 11

Mr bismark the bugs are called midges, they are in Cleveland all summer long. They were on the field for several innings. They were the type that do not bite.

posted by jojomfd1 at 07:16 AM on October 11

Thanks Jojo. Some of the folks I bump into are spinning it as if they were Cleveland-trained attack bugs, bred specifically to dive-bomb the Yanks, while allowing the Indian pitchers to go unmolested.

posted by Mr Bismarck at 07:30 AM on October 11

Oops, Clutch two out hits was what I meant to say! Sorry, it's still early.

posted by jojomfd1 at 07:33 AM on October 11

I want to see the Yankees show some cajones and tell Scott Boras to go faq himself and take his vagina A-Rod with him. They need to blow up the whole team and start over. Not only that it's only a matter of time till George buys Jake Peavy or some other stud who's playing for a small market club.

posted by Brahdakine at 11:45 AM on October 11

Hi Brahdakine. Welcome to SpoFi. Please check out our guidelines.

posted by jerseygirl at 11:49 AM on October 11

Against the Indians in the post-season, the Yankees batted an average .234. with a pitching ERA of 6.79. Against the Yankees in the post-season, the Indians batted an average .404, with a pitching ERA of 2.98. Out-classed.

posted by irunfromclones at 01:14 PM on October 11

Out-classed. You can throw out as many stats as you want. It doesn't change the fact that one run by the yankees in the 10th or 11th of game two and it's 2-1 yankees going into game 4. Your stats don't explain that. You keep quoting them like they do. They don't.

posted by justgary at 01:41 PM on October 11

Does it really matter? Call it out-classed, out-shined, out-house, out & about...the bottom line is that the Yankees are still out. My question is: Why when the Yankees were pretty much swarmed by these Cleveland Indians-trained-to-distract-the-opposition midges, didn't the umps treat it as if it were a weather related situation and delay the game until things seemed as if they were dying down? I just never understood as to why that didn't happen or even considered? Was it a judgment call?

posted by BornIcon at 01:49 PM on October 11

They actually did stop the game briefly, and umps and players had the opportunity to soak themselves in bug spray. Sure didn't seem to help, though.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 05:15 PM on October 11

Even though the bugs were something both teams had to deal with, I still think it was ridiculous and the game should have been stopped. Having guys faces and necks completely covered with those things, with thousands of others flying around, distracting the pitchers and batters in what was a very good game, is a poor thing to have to look back on. It's too bad TV dictates when every game is played, because if the Yankees play in Cleveland during the daytime hours, the bugs never materialize. Oh for the good old days. As for A-Rod, he'll soon be an ex-Yankee. Unfortunately he has an agent who cares about nothing other than making as much off of him as he possibly can. A-Rod has said he would like to stay in New York, but he won't. He'll move to another team, continue to look like a guy who plays in various cities and never wins it all, and will continue to be booed because it will appear all he does care about is the money. Some things never change. Hopefully the Yanks will at least find another third baseman and don't delude themselves into thinking it will be Wilson Betemit. That guy absolutely stinks.

posted by dyams at 05:48 PM on October 11

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. Benjamin Disraeli posted by irunfromclones at 12:31 PM CDT on September 26 That was a nice stat you put up there irfc. Too bad it is not the stat that tells the true story of what happened. Like gary has stated game 2 could have gone either way, had the Yanks taken that game and gone back home tied. We may have had a different story today. The reason we don't, is not due to the stat you put up there though. It is due to two numbers, 14 and 2. The Indians had 14 two out RBI's and the yankee's only had 2. Hafner hit a two out RBI to end game two. The tribe had eight of them in game one alone. They put up another three in game 3, and the last two in game 4. Cano had one in game 1, and Jeter had one in game 4. The biggest difference was clutch hitting. Now about these bugs, you guys really can't be serious about stopping a game due to what amounts to little flies, can you? These are major league ball players that play in the rain, cold(sometimes freezing cold), snow,and extreme heat. These damn little things didn't even bite. Oh, BI they were on both teams and pitchers also, not just the Yankees. But come on they play ball outside, not in a dome. Granted swarms of midges aren't common enough to practice in, but come on they are just little flies! You don't stop a game for flies!

posted by jojomfd1 at 02:01 AM on October 12

They actually did stop the game briefly, and umps and players had the opportunity to soak themselves in bug spray. Sure didn't seem to help, though. Nah, I saw that part. What I meant was why didn't they treat it like a rain delay and wait it out?

posted by BornIcon at 07:25 AM on October 12

Now about these bugs, you guys really can't be serious about stopping a game due to what amounts to little flies, can you? These are major league ball players that play in the rain, cold(sometimes freezing cold), snow,and extreme heat. These damn little things didn't even bite. Oh, BI they were on both teams and pitchers also, not just the Yankees. But come on they play ball outside, not in a dome. Little flies? There were THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of these so-called "little flies" which IMO, should have been cause to delay the game until things settled down a bit. Players play in the rain when it's a slight drizzle so if you compare the rain to these "little flies", you would have yourself one hell of a rain storm and there's no way that those umps would've let the game go on. The midges were on both teams but still, this is what you might call home field advantage for the Indians.

posted by BornIcon at 07:37 AM on October 12

Bah, there were flies - I watched. No one was carried away. We don't need to play every playoff baseball game in a sterile environment. Delay of game due to midges? Then someone would be complaining about a starting pitcher having to rest while his gas was good or some other unknown bitchery. But for the record - if baseball playoff games have to be stopped because there are too many bugs flying around the pitcher, then there's something wrong with America. There. I said it. Whole country.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 07:41 AM on October 12

The midges were on both teams but still, this is what you might call home field advantage for the Indians. Do you actually think that happens often enough to be considered a "Home Field advantage"? Give me a break, now you are reachin for an excuse. Or whining, whichever one you want. Thanks Weedy!

posted by jojomfd1 at 08:32 AM on October 12

What would stopping the game have accomplished? It's apparently a seasonal phenomenon that doesn't usually happen quite then, but when it does, it's going to be around until it turns colder. It's not like a fifteen-minute rain delay.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:50 AM on October 12

But for the record - if baseball playoff games have to be stopped because there are too many bugs flying around the pitcher, then there's something wrong with America But they'll stop it for a little rain? Yeah, that makes sense. Give me a break, now you are reaching for an excuse. Or whining, whichever one you want. jojo, where were they playing? I think it was Cleveland, right? I wasn't serious about that, it was more or less tongue in cheek but I see you took it literal. I am neither "reaching for an excuse" or "whining" since I am no Yankees fan, I was just wondering why the game wasn't delayed a while to see if the swarm of bugs would die down like they do when it rains, so relax there a bit.

posted by BornIcon at 08:50 AM on October 12

Wait a second: did you seriously just point out a spelling error by someone else? I'll have to keep that in mind.

posted by yerfatma at 09:34 AM on October 12

My question is: Why when the Yankees were pretty much swarmed by these Cleveland Indians-trained-to-distract-the-opposition midges, didn't the umps treat it as if it were a weather related situation and delay the game until things seemed as if they were dying down? I just never understood as to why that didn't happen or even considered? Was it a judgment call? Ok we all can pick out the joke in here, about the indians trained blah, blah, blah. This is the first question. What I meant was why didn't they treat it like a rain delay and wait it out? Here is the second. There were THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of these so-called "little flies" which IMO, should have been cause to delay the game until things settled down a bit. Players play in the rain when it's a slight drizzle so if you compare the rain to these "little flies", you would have yourself one hell of a rain storm and there's no way that those umps would've let the game go on. The midges were on both teams but still, this is what you might call home field advantage for the Indians. There is your third. Pretty long joke if you ask me. Plus you sound a lot like Roger Clemens did after game 2, and some of the media wanting to blame the loss on the bugs. Oh, and sorry my keyboard stuckon that one G, here are some extra letters for the next time you decide to correct my spelling. g, t, e, l, i, f, a, e, s, a, s, o, l, h, e.

posted by jojomfd1 at 09:41 AM on October 12

Wait a second: did you seriously just point out a spelling error by someone else? I'll have to keep that in mind. You do that. Plus you sound a lot like Roger Clemens did after game 2, and some of the media wanting to blame the loss on the bugs. Well, considering that I never blamed the loss on the bugs, I have no idea what you're talking about. I asked a simple question which was why wasn't there a delay and seeing that I am actually excited that the Yanks were bounced, you got things twisted. Oh, and sorry my keyboard stuckon that one G.. Sowhat'sthedealwithyourspacebar?

posted by BornIcon at 11:10 AM on October 12

I think the bugs played a significant part in that game. I think that because the bugs are native to Cleveland that the Indians were acclimated to the bugs. I think that the Indians could draw the bugs to the field. I think that the Indians played the bug ploy to win a critical post-season game. In a word, Midgegate.

posted by irunfromclones at 11:34 AM on October 12

Good one IRFC! BI you truly are a shit stirrer. You did not just ask a simple question about the buGs. If you want to see a simple question about the buGs look up post to Mr. Bismark's. You instead, asked the same question 3 different times after GettinG the same answer by several different members here. Besides you even answer your own question in the question itself! Was it a judGement call? Of course it was moron, most things are judGement calls made by the plate umpire, or the crew chief. However as usual once you Get called on it, you start to back away and try the old, I wasn't serious BS. Then when you have nothing else to stand on you are GoinG to pick apart someone alse's spellinG and spacinG. Give me a break, if you have anythinG else on the topic of the Games between the Yankee's and Indians lets hear it. If not follow Crafty's advice from the locker room. Oh, and by the way, don't ever make a mistake in spelling around here again.

posted by jojomfd1 at 12:11 PM on October 12

I asked a simple question which was why wasn't there a delay and seeing that I am actually excited that the Yanks were bounced, you got things twisted. BI, what's the deal with the run on sentence? Seriously man, lay off the grammar and spelling edits. Everyone makes the occasional mistake and it's just plain polite to overlook them.

posted by apoch at 12:42 PM on October 12

BI you truly are a shit stirrer.....Was it a judGement call? Of course it was moron Shit stirrer? Why is that? Is it because I pointed out the fact that you missed the 'g' in reaching? Who here hasn't pointed out someone's misspelled words before? Don't be pissed at me that it so happened to be you this time but now I'm a moron because I asked if the non-delay was a judgement call? Dude, grow up. People that have nothing further to add to the conversation or feels as if they were belittled proceed to call people names....that or kids do so. Which are you? BI, what's the deal with the run on sentence? My bad. That's what I call my occassional spiel

posted by BornIcon at 01:20 PM on October 12

Who here hasn't pointed out someone's misspelled words before? Don't be pissed at me that it so happened to be you this time but now I'm a moron because I asked if the non-delay was a judgement call? Dude, grow up. People that have nothing further to add to the conversation or feels as if they were belittled proceed to call people names....that or kids do so. Which are you? As apoch suggested, it's a low-class way to try to win points. The reason I called it our is because there's a word you constantly misspell (it escapes me right now) that drives me crazy, but I never mention it. If we're going to be that way: 1. Call me a prescriptivist, but I prefer "misspelt" as the past tense of "misspell", even if Firefox's spell-checker doesn't know it. 2. Your second sentence is a rhetorical question. Don't do that. 3. Answering your own rhetorical question (sentence 3) and putting words in your opponent's mouth to boot is truly poor form. 4. Sentence 4 is an abomination of a run-on sentence. Worse yet, it lacks for punctuation where the two sentences smash into each other. Perhaps the comma was thrown clear in the mayhem. 5. Sentence 5 is useless. Cut that. 6. Oh, sentence 6. Where to begin? Well, let's start with the easy part: an ellipsis typically consists of 3 dots and they are placed a space apart. Second, there isn't a coherent sentence in either end of this. I can tease out what you mean, but it's near-nonsensical and again speaking for your opponent. spiel: n. A lengthy or extravagant speech or argument usually intended to persuade. n. a usually high-flown talk or speech, esp. for the purpose of luring people to a movie, a sale, etc.; pitch. v. to speak extravagantly. Maybe you meant "rant" and not "spiel", but I fail to see how run-on sentences are required for either.

posted by yerfatma at 02:05 PM on October 12

The reason I called it our is because there's a word you constantly misspell (it escapes me right now) that drives me crazy, but I never mention it. If we're going to be that way: Spell check wasn't too fond of that section. The comment is right on the mark though.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 03:20 PM on October 12

It's a rule: all posts on spelling and grammar must contain a mistake. See also: hubris.

posted by yerfatma at 03:34 PM on October 12

Excessive pride?

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 05:22 PM on October 12

In my book, a guy that takes the team to the playoffs every single season for 12 years and to the World Series six times in eight years (winning four) gets to manage the team as long as he wants.

posted by kirkaracha at 05:26 PM on October 12

And we all know that Pride goeth before the autumnal equinox, and the Pride of the Yankees fell this fall.

posted by irunfromclones at 05:33 PM on October 12

In my book, a guy that takes the team to the playoffs every single season for 12 years and to the World Series six times in eight years (winning four) gets to manage the team as long as he wants. You'd like to think that would be the way all the time. I guess big George is the exception to the rule, and he may just prove it once again.

posted by jojomfd1 at 05:56 PM on October 12

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