FanDuel - WFBC

October 04, 2007

Had Enough Steroids Yet? Marion Jones, You're Next!: Multiple Olympic medalist Marion Jones has admitted using the steroid known as "the clear" for two years beginning in 1999. Jones, once considered the best female athlete in the world, says her former coach Trevor Graham gave her the steroid, telling her it was flaxseed oil.

posted by The_Black_Hand to other at 05:41 PM - 80 comments

Marion Jones-steriods-very depressing-I give up.

posted by brickman at 05:51 PM on October 04

Ah, flaxseed oil, is there anything it can't do?

posted by chris2sy at 06:04 PM on October 04

Is anyone really surprised?

posted by Gordo73 at 06:20 PM on October 04

"Red flags should have been raised when he told me not to tell anyone" Are those the same red flags that did go up every time you publicly denied taking steroids?

posted by irunfromclones at 06:24 PM on October 04

How come every offender who's at the head of their industry, company, competition, etc., is always ignorant of the crime when they are caught? I blame flaxseed oil!

posted by worldcup2002 at 08:10 PM on October 04

And she and Barry lived happily ever after.

posted by budman13 at 10:21 PM on October 04

I know a lot of people dismiss pro-wrestling... But there's a well known writer called Bryan Alvarez who ran a headline recently after some WWE drug suspensions on his newsletter. "Everyone in World on Drugs". I'm starting to think he was right.

posted by Drood at 10:39 PM on October 04

Wassat you were sayin', Drood? Be a good soul and fire up that bong again for me. Evereetyang gonna be a'right.

posted by worldcup2002 at 11:01 PM on October 04

Is there a pro sport that has not been hit with steroid issues this year? Are there allegations of juiced up balls in bowling? (or, would that be shriveled up balls?) While I'm not up on all the details of this case, I do find it interesting that a woman that used steroids, and then lied about it, may be going to jail. While a man that used steroids, and then lied about it, may be going to the Hall of Fame.

posted by dviking at 11:14 PM on October 04

Marion Jones. CJ Hunter. Married at one stage, I believe.

posted by owlhouse at 04:58 AM on October 05

While I'm not up on all the details of this case, I do find it interesting that a woman that used steroids, and then lied about it, may be going to jail. While a man that used steroids, and then lied about it, may be going to the Hall of Fame. Which roids user are you talking about, specifically?

posted by jmd82 at 07:55 AM on October 05

one Barry Bonds comes to mind, Mcgwire would be second. Yes, McGwire only got lukewarm support on the past ballots, but if in time Bonds is voted in, then I think writers will take another look at McGwire. Please spare me the "Bonds was never caught" garbage. Baseball knows fully well what they are dealing with. They have just chosen to ignore the facts as Barry is one nice money train that they aren't about to get off of. The Olympics don't need Jones, much as the TDF doesn't need Landis, so they can be more forceful in their handling of these cases. That, and they have a shred of respectability. Note that I said a "shred of respectability" nothing more.

posted by dviking at 08:45 AM on October 05

Please spare me the "Bonds was never caught" garbage. Baseball knows fully well what they are dealing with. They have just chosen to ignore the facts as Barry is one nice money train that they aren't about to get off of. If you want us to quit saying it, quit bringing it up. And "baseball" isn't the one that would bring charges, it's the courts and they have been unable to pin anything on him despite 2 grand jury inquisitions. Nevermind your argument doesn't make sense because "baseball" would love nothing more than to pin this on Bonds so they can throw him under the bus (ask Bud Selig his opinion on Bonds). Now San Francisco may have been riding that money train, but baseball hates Bonds.

posted by bdaddy at 09:00 AM on October 05

I say we just give up and allow steriods, genetically engineered athletes, corked bats, magic shoes, extra lively balls, energy drinks, and whatever else science can come up with. All sports have been changed forever and we are never going back to the good old days when we all were innocent and just amazed how big and strong those East German women were. This has been going on for a long time and taking away Marion Jones' medals will not make up for all those East German gold medals won by women that were juiced up since the sixties. How many world records were set, how many gold medals were won and how many great athletes used everything available to them to be the best? This goes so deep it can never be fixed. Bob Beeman's record jump has an altitude aided asterisk. Barry Bonds famous baseball has a big red asterisk. The truth is every record should have an asterisk as every new generation of athletes has an advantage over those in the past due to better training, better nutrition, better drugs, better stadiums, better surfaces, better equipment, better medical procedures, better rehab, better physical therapy etc. Lets all just move on and accept the new reality of athletic performance. One final note since Barry Bonds has been brought up again. I find it interesting that some millionaire can buy the baseball he hit, paint an asterisk on it, which is basically his editorial statement, and then have major league baseball actually display it in the Hall of Fame. The fact that baseball would consider this is ridiculous. Back when Hank Aaron surpassed Babe Ruth's record there were racist death threats against him. What if some KKKer caught the ball and decided to paint his editorial message on it? Would MLB endorse it by displaying the ball in the HOF? Of course not, so why can someone put his ignorant two cents worth on the Bonds ball and get the endorsement of MLB? Because as bdaddy said, they would love nothing more than to through him under the bus any way they can, when if fact their own policies and apathy over the last twenty years are what have created the situation.

posted by Atheist at 09:52 AM on October 05

Please spare me the "Bonds was never caught" garbage. Baseball knows fully well what they are dealing with. They have just chosen to ignore the facts as Barry is one nice money train that they aren't about to get off of. The Olympics don't need Jones, much as the TDF doesn't need Landis, so they can be more forceful in their handling of these cases. That, and they have a shred of respectability. Note that I said a "shred of respectability" nothing more. Marion Jones' irrelevance to future Olympics has nothing to do with the differences in how she and Bonds may be treated as a result of their use of PDAs. Nor does her gender. By the way, "baseball" doesn't send people to prison. HTH, HAND.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:08 AM on October 05

Who is this "baseball" person? Sounds like a right cock whoever he is.

posted by JJ at 10:18 AM on October 05

See alot of bitching and complaining on this blog, but can anything be done about "enhancing drugs" in sports today? Is there a answer to this single cell monster that growing like the Blob? Have written several sports authorites about this problem and think if enough fans keep up the pressure and complain something will be done-unions be dammed.

posted by brickman at 10:24 AM on October 05

Olympic athletes don't have unions. They're not employees.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:41 AM on October 05

She denied for years....years...even filed a 25 mil lawsuit against Conteof BALCO for saying she did. Now she proven to be a liar. Another star athlete's fall from grace....That list is REALLY starting to grow........

posted by Pimpkiller at 11:28 AM on October 05

No unions at the Olympis-your right, my mistake. Baseball is my primary sport that I follow and I have written the commissioner several times about "enhancing drugs". Maybe we could write to NCAA and express our views. Most Olympians are from colleges and universities across the U.S. or the Olympic committee for the U.S. I'am afraid if this continues, fans and supporters are going to get fed up and not give a damn about sports in general. The population is getting older and older persons tend to more conservative. My suggestion is a no tolerance rule. One strike -probation for 2 years. 2nd strike your out with jail time. Make sport figures sign a contract to abstain from enhancing drug and other mood altering drugs. I not sure this is the answer however it may be a start to try and control this run away truck on a very steep grade.

posted by brickman at 11:33 AM on October 05

While I'm not up on all the details of this case, I do find it interesting that a woman that used steroids, and then lied about it, may be going to jail. While a man that used steroids, and then lied about it, may be going to the Hall of Fame. According to this story, Jones "is expected to plead guilty to one count of making false statements to federal agents about her use of performance-enhancing drugs and one count of making false statements to federal agents in connection with a separate check fraud case." So if she does indeed go to jail, it will be for lying to federal agents, rather than for using performance enhancing substances per se. AFAIK, Bonds has yet to be accused of lying to federal agents. Doesn't make what he did any better or worse, but does clarify the seeming discrepancy in consequences for similar actions.

posted by googly at 11:33 AM on October 05

My greatest fear in all of this is that the sanctimonious Mr. Dick Pound might actually be right. I just can't stand the SOB. (As the slogan for E. I. DuPont said, "Better things for better living through chemistry.")

posted by Howard_T at 12:20 PM on October 05

My greatest fear in all of this is that the sanctimonious Mr. Dick Pound might actually be right. I just can't stand the SOB. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, and Dick Pound is "right" in exactly the same way (that is, for the wrong reasons).

posted by lil_brown_bat at 12:26 PM on October 05

Is there a pro sport that has not been hit with steroid issues this year? Haven't noticed any in top level rugby union, rugby league, or cricket.

posted by rodgerd at 12:32 PM on October 05

Would MLB endorse it by displaying the ball in the HOF? The baseball Hall of Fame is not owned, run by or in any way affiliated with MLB.

posted by Ricardo at 01:02 PM on October 05

I say just cut the crap aside and lets get to the true future of sports, the death games. There are already combat fights that push that edge already. Hell turn it into a gambling home show like in the running man movie. Then they would at least have a common sense excuse for doping, " Hey man my life is on the line here". That would kill 2 birds with one stone. We could get rid of obnoxious parents looking to make fortunes on their kids backs, and kids might be deterred from taking steroids. The way it's all going now heroes are becoming harder to find.

posted by volfire at 01:47 PM on October 05

That would kill 2 birds with one stone. We could get rid of obnoxious parents looking to make fortunes on their kids backs, and kids might be deterred from taking steroids. How, exactly would your "death games" accomplish either of those two things? The way it's all going now heroes are becoming harder to find. If you insist on finding them on a sports field, they've never been easy to find unless you're willing to look the other way.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:52 PM on October 05

Haven't noticed any in top level rugby union, rugby league, or cricket. I'm not saying those guys are on drugs, but they look like they're on drugs more than any other sport. Those guys are built like Scion xB's. (this isn't referring to cricket obviously)

posted by Ricardo at 01:53 PM on October 05

(this isn't referring to cricket obviously) That made me laugh for no reason.

posted by chicobangs at 01:59 PM on October 05

Have written several sports authorites about this problem and think if enough fans keep up the pressure and complain something will be done-unions be dammed. This always makes me laugh. Fans only care if it's a player on a team/country other than the one for which they cheer. Americans were all sanctimonious when Ben Johnson got busted at the 1988 Olympics, but were quick to defend all their American track stars when allegations started flying about them. Oops. Baseball fans like to rant and rave about Bonds/McGwire/Sosa/Palmeiro, but when one of their favourite players has accusations leveled at them (cough*Ortiz*cough*Howard*cough*), they immediately rush to their defense. Baseball fans also showed their disgust and displeasure about PED in their sport by setting yet ANOTHER attendance record for MLB. Please stop referring to "the fans" as some sort of organized group who all think the same way about steroids. The way it's all going now heroes are becoming harder to find. If you're are looking for "heroes" in sports, you aren't looking in the right place.

posted by grum@work at 09:30 PM on October 05

And "baseball" isn't the one that would bring charges, it's the courts and they have been unable to pin anything on him despite 2 grand jury inquisitions (And about 10 other links to my prior statement.) I never said Bonds should go to jail, I just referenced how one athlete who used the clear is going to jail, and another athlete who used it may end up in the Hall of Fame. Please reread my comment, all I said is that both used it, and both lied about it. If you read that as both lied to federal agents I can't do anything about that. So, stick to my comment, and please don't read into it what you want it to say.

posted by dviking at 09:34 PM on October 05

And "baseball" isn't the one that would bring charges, it's the courts and they have been unable to pin anything on him despite 2 grand jury inquisitions (And about 10 other links to my prior statement.) I never said Bonds should go to jail, I just referenced how one athlete who used the clear is going to jail, and another athlete who used it may end up in the Hall of Fame. Please reread my comment, all I said is that both used it, and both lied about it. If you read that as both lied to federal agents I can't do anything about that. So, stick to my comment, and please don't read into it what you want it to say.

posted by dviking at 09:34 PM on October 05

grum@work Give another name besides fan that follows the game and cheers for favorite team. How about lemming? Criticsm can't be in a vacuum. Sports figures that take steriods must be exposed regardless if your a "fan" of the local boy hitting home runs at a pace to break Maris' home run record. Sport figures are idols of young children weather you like it or not. It can not be helped. Sports is a alternative for alot of young boys to keep them out of trouble. Believe me, I know of what I speak. Look at the jersey, shoes and other sport clothing being worn by kids today. Why? Because their parents are trying to make a fashion statement. Give me a break. Nothing wrong with sports figures being looked up to and in some cases. it's probably healthy.

posted by brickman at 10:41 PM on October 05

Reminds me of those East German frauleins from back in the Olympics that were more masculine than the men. Now we know why Marion never had any camel toe she was tucking.

posted by Brahdakine at 11:25 PM on October 05

We are such Hypocrites...are we not This was the comment that I emailed posted to CNN. How quickly we past and make judgments of others before we research, study and think over all of the facts and events that lead up to the final outcome. People are making comments(which they are rightly entitled to make) of this is why athletes are over paid...they shouldn't be called role models...and if it looks to good to be true it must be bad...and so on. So the question becomes what makes a role model ...a role model...is it the pay, the work/deeds, the image and/or the fact that they are human and while being human-one of the accepted flaws is that "we" are imperfect...but are allowed to learn and teach from are mistakes. Would I have used steroids if it would have increased my chances to win a medal or scholarships...? I can honestly say no and I didn't. Did I know of other athletes that did use steroids to enhance there performance...yes I did. However I must say and this is no defense for Marion Jones or any other high Scholl athlete, minor leaguer, major or pro-athlete. True Sport is about skill and the application of the skill...just as the same goes to being in the sport of life...(by the way another sport people cheat to get ahead in all the time...where are the cries of fowl play and Grand Jury Indictments)...steroids doesn’t enhance skill(s), it enhances strength. I come form a Powerhouse of a Wrestling Team...and each year competitor coaches attempts to lure the graduating Seniors to come and coach for them in hopes that they would share the Bulldog secrets to success... to their great disappointments there was and is no secret(s)...the formula was to simply work hard to be your best, never cheat yourself, and never cheat the team....we ran 30 miles a week, sprinted up 80 degree angle hills, carried people up the same hills, practices 15 hours a week, and after each weekend tournament while the other teams rested, we were doing what are coached love to call the "Sunday" fun run...rain, sleet or hell. Ever year this was and still is the routine a time held tradition for success. So this is the comment that I posted thought I would share it with you as well.... As a former athlete I must say “it is what it is”…I run into former competitors and as they recognize me...they jokingly say I was the one that there coaches told them “the only way to stop him is to hurt him…and his ankles are weak take him out at the ankles”. Not once did any of my coaches tell me to cheat or lie to win…it simply stated if you want to be number one you must work harder than everyone else. In our quest to be “number one” in America…we are taught through any means necessary get to the top and worry about how you got there only if someone questions you...but first get to the top and deal with the questions later. I am proud of all the athletes before me that inspired me to be the best on and off the field/mat/ and track. I am proud of the lessons that I learned from my coaches, teammates, competitors. Most of all I am proud of helping move the sports I loved forward by setting records and raising the bar. Yes Marion was and is wrong… and yes she should be held accountable…should she retire that’s her personal choice…should she coach now younger youth to become great…you bet your bottom dollar. A true Champion a true Victorious athlete warrior learns not only from winning but from being defeated. As I tell folks in my book and in my Blog…never let them steal your thunder…never let them get you down. As one famous artist sings “through all the pain…there is pleasure on the other side”. Marion…don’t melt away into the background face your demons and rise like the Phoenix from the fire and soar to run a different type of race…teach, coach, and share with the future Warrior Athletes’…to work hard, train hard, and it is what it is…win lose or draw! With Great Thought & Hope Torrance Wade Sacramento CA want more ...google me....

posted by getmotivatednow at 03:18 AM on October 06

getmotivatednow Your words are a inspiration.

posted by brickman at 08:23 AM on October 06

we ran 30 miles a week, sprinted up 80 degree angle hills, carried people up the same hills, practices 15 hours a week, Ummm, right then, you carried someone up an 80 degree hill, and/or sprinted up said hill. Since 90 degrees is straight up I have some doubts about you really doing either task on a 80 degree hill. As to True Sport is about skill and the application of the skill... I think that is an over simplification. Most sports are a combination of skill and strength. I can have the exact same swing as Barry Bonds, however, without the strength to back it up I will not hit as many home runs. The same would hold true for most athletic endeavors. Love your tag line of "want more...google me" knowing that it would take one to links to buy your book. Sorry in a critical mood this morning

posted by dviking at 11:03 AM on October 06

I can have the exact same swing as Barry Bonds, however, without the strength to back it up I will not hit as many home runs. To be fair, what makes Bonds swing so special isn't the "strength", but the speed and accuracy. If you were able to match his reaction time, his twitch reflexes and his eye-hand coordination, you'd probably hit almost as many home runs as Bonds. Obviously strength helps, but it doesn't explain why this guy hits home runs (especially the legends of his batting-practice power). Remember, a home run hit 478 feet to center field in this park is worth the same as a home run hit 303 feet down the right field line in this park.

posted by grum@work at 12:44 PM on October 06

want more ...google me.... No, I think I've had enough, thank you.

posted by grum@work at 12:45 PM on October 06

I have some doubts about you really doing either task on a 80 degree hill. They wore suction cups on their feet. You ever carry someone while wearing suction cups on your feet? Didn't think so.

posted by SummersEve at 01:16 PM on October 06

I have, uphill, both ways. The 80 degree hills were the easy ones. Why, when Coach was feeling foul, we'd sprint while carrying each other up 160 degree hills. When Coach was feeling really mean, we weren't allowed to use the suction cups. Our only performance enhancer was fear. Coach once caught Pauly about to give himself a steroid injection in a bathroom stall. Coach literally chewed Pauly's head off. After that the hill drills didn't seem so bad. Of course when Coach was feeling fowl, we had to race to the grocery store for frozen chickens.

posted by apoch at 02:50 PM on October 06

The 360° hills were the real bitch. Want to know more? Finger me. </old_skool_internet>

posted by yerfatma at 04:35 PM on October 06

grum, you confused me on this one. you link to a batter that hits on average 9 home runs a year. Clearly a little more strength and that number would go up. I grow weary of of debating whether or not upper body strength helps a home run hitter hit home runs. Clearly strength is an asset, and enhancing one's strength would help hit home runs. My point was that increasing strength will help almost all athletes, which is why the pressure to use steroids is so strong. I was merely countering what's his name's statement that true sport is about skill not strength.

posted by dviking at 08:04 PM on October 06

I have, uphill, both ways. The 80 degree hills were the easy ones. Yeah, but here in NH we had to do it in 2-feet of snow, and that was in July.

posted by Howard_T at 11:48 PM on October 06

grum, you confused me on this one. you link to a batter that hits on average 9 home runs a year. There are many, many stories about how Ichiro will suddenly decide to hit home runs instead of slashing singles while taking his turn up at batting practice. Everyone describes all these bombs he hits, over and over again. "I had heard this about Ichiro, but never paid that much attention to it," said the Tigers' manager. "They said he hits balls out in batting practice like it's nothing. He probably hit more home runs tonight in BP than any player on the field and he made it look easy. I can't believe what ease he was hitting balls with over the fence, like it was nothing. I'm not really too happy about that because we play [the Mariners] on Thursday." link Or read Jack Wilson's comment here. Ichiro is 5'9" and weighs 160lbs. strength != home runs Unless you are able to hit home runs before, adding more upper body strength isn't going to turn you into a home run hitter.

posted by grum@work at 12:36 AM on October 07

Yeah, but here in NH we had to do it in 2-feet of snow, and that was in July. Lucky bastard. It's a great day up here in Canada when double-uphill walks are in only 2-feet of snow. That means it's been melting for a couple of days and it's not the usual 6-foot snow drifts of summer!

posted by grum@work at 12:38 AM on October 07

Six foot snow drifts? You must have lived in the south.

posted by apoch at 05:26 AM on October 07

Another example of someone not taking responsibility for her own actions. It is always sad to see another person with no integrity in sports. Maybe we should re-evaluate the metrics. Let's let the steroid intoxicated athletes compete but with a handicap system!

posted by jb24 at 12:01 PM on October 07

grum, you're still confusing me. Are you truly saying that adding strength will not help a batter hit home runs? I never once said that a batter that does not have a good "home run" swing will start popping 60 home runs once he adds steroids to his morning breakfast. All I have said is that adding strength is going to give a hitter increased power which will help his home run production. Using your own link to Jack Wilson's comment, you might want to check that again, multiple writers picked Mark McGwire as their top pick...you don't get more juiced up than that. Lastly, being heavily involved in youth baseball, as a coach on some level for the past 10 years, there is a huge difference between batting practice and game time. BP is used to warm up a batter, and Ichiro with his "sweet swing" is able to get in a groove and hit dinger after dinger. In a game with the pitcher throwing a variety of pitches it's different, and Bond's, or McGwire's, strength enables them to drive pitches for home runs that Ichiro would just take to the opposite field for a hit. We may be arguing the same point....good hitters can hit home runs regardless of their upper body strength, and increased upper body strength will help a home run hitter hit more home runs.

posted by dviking at 12:25 PM on October 07

Not sure made news other than in St. Louis but Mark McGwire has lost 40 lbs. since retiring. Noticing other retired ballplayer after finishing their careers, the weight loss seems odd-strike that, suspect, better word however still not the right adjective I'am looking for. Please, other Blogger, fill in the missing word.

posted by brickman at 12:51 PM on October 07

Suspicious?

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 01:01 PM on October 07

brickman, "incriminating" comes to my mind.

posted by dviking at 01:05 PM on October 07

Baseball fans like to rant and rave about Bonds/McGwire/Sosa/Palmeiro, but when one of their favourite players has accusations leveled at them (cough*Ortiz*cough*Howard*cough*), they immediately rush to their defense. Comparing the accusations against bonds with those against ortiz is a huge stretch and completely unfair to ortiz. And if you're going to randomly throw ortiz into the mix don't forget clemens. Gotta be fair. Mark McGwire has lost 40 lbs. since retiring McGwire was a serious weight lifter. When you quit lifting you lose muscle weight. Losing 40 pounds isn't suspicious. It doesn't mean he didn't use steroids, but in no way does it mean he did.

posted by justgary at 01:12 PM on October 07

brickman, "incriminating" comes to my mind. So does "delusional".

posted by justgary at 01:14 PM on October 07

Noticing other retired ballplayer after finishing their careers, the weight loss seems odd-strike that, suspect, better word however still not the right adjective I'am looking for. Please, other Blogger, fill in the missing word. Name all the other retired players you have seen with their playing and current weights, then cite something that points to the exact weight loss for McGwire. Not that I'm trying to suggest you're making up "facts" to support your opinion or anything. Heaven forfend.

posted by yerfatma at 03:21 PM on October 07

Didn't say M.M. used steriods, never did, just commented on weight loss. Thanks justgary for the possible reason he loss the weight.

posted by brickman at 04:00 PM on October 07

Way to back away from every assertion you've ever made.

posted by yerfatma at 06:38 PM on October 07

yerfatma- Read my just gary comments very carefully. Hard to invoke irony into written text. Give me name of HOF with 500 homers that received 24% of ballots in first year of eligibility? Or any HOF, with 500 homers, other than Eddie Mathews that didn't make in first year of eligibility? Wonder why MM got this percentage? Did they, writers that didn't vote for MM, make assumptions also? They probably did, however I never said MM used steriods. I was making a comment-that's all. If you choose to make assumptions about my comments I can live with that.

posted by brickman at 07:27 PM on October 07

brickman, in a thread about steroid use you bring up Mark McGwire's weight loss after his retirement, compare it (vaguely) to other retired players weight fluxuations and call it "suspect". It is heavily implied that you assumed his weight loss was because he quit taking steroids. If this was not what you meant to imply, what was the point of your comment? Especially when you claim your thanks to justgary is supposed to be ironic. "I never said MM used steroids." While literally true, any reasonable person (and I have strong doubts that you are one) would come to the conclusion that you are accusing of Mark McGwire of using steroids. The fact that you refuse to own up to your accusation or back it up with facts shows a serious lack of spine. If you believe his weight loss is suspect, back it up. It isn't an unreasonable request. If you want to post random drivel without having the decency to willingly engage in intelligent, fact based debate, please do it elsewhere. Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of your ruining perfectly good discussions with your bullshit.

posted by apoch at 06:57 AM on October 08

apoch My comments were not directed at you. Why is it you seem to butt in at the end for all of comments? Your other comments in this thread are to criticize other persons words with sound bites. Do you have a orginal thought or idea. Look, I'am not going around with a scale to weight ex ball players, however I'am observant person and don't have to be hit on top of the head to come to certain conclusions. I didn't high jack anything, This is a discussion about steriod use and I did not bring up MM orginally in this discussion. As far as bulls%$t, I suggest you get a shovel pal, because your going to get my opinion on this subject in spades. I'll do it without insulting people, based on observations and everyday common sense.

posted by brickman at 10:09 AM on October 08

Amazing. You're never going to answer a direct question, are you? If your intent is to simply say incendiary things and be lauded for it, look elsewhere.

posted by yerfatma at 10:37 AM on October 08

I'am not going around with a scale to weight ex ball players, however I'am observant person and don't have to be hit on top of the head to come to certain conclusions. But it doesn't mean that conclusion holds any weight except in your own head. Mark Mcgwire was a serious weight lifter. He did two things, play baseball, and lift weights. After baseball, he quit lifting, which means he loses muscle mass. It also means he has to quit eating at the level he did when he was lifting or he'd lose muscle mass and gain fat. Add to that fact that he's now 44 instead of 38 when he retired and there is nothing suspicious about his weight loss. Comparing him to other players would also prove nothing. Pointing to his weight loss as some kind of proof that he used steroids is flat out ignorant. If you are a workout fiend, becoming as big and strong as you can, and then you stop working out and stop eating at the levels it took to maintain your weight you will lose a significant amount of weight no matter if you used steroids or not.

posted by justgary at 10:47 AM on October 08

You brought up Mark McGwire's weight loss in a discussion about steriods. Are you or are you not trying to imply that you think his weight loss is due to stopping the use of steroids after retirement? If you are trying to imply that is the case, then why did you claim, "I never said MM used steroids." If you aren't trying to say that, what is the point of making the comment in the first place?

posted by apoch at 10:49 AM on October 08

As far as bulls%$t, I suggest you get a shovel pal, because your going to get my opinion on this subject in spades. I'll do it without insulting people, based on observations and everyday common sense. If "everyday common sense" means using the same standard as the average joker for coming to conclusions, that's damning yourself with faint praise. There are a lot of people out there who seem to base their "reasoning" on heavily filtered "observation", bias and lazy thinking -- and there are a lot of sports forums where you can use that kind of thinking and get nothing but approval from the assembled multitudes ("Yeah! Fuckin' A!" *BURP*)...but SpoFi is just not one of those places, and it isn't going to become one anytime soon. You've beefed here and in other threads about SpoFi -- what's the point? The internet is full of forums. If you're finding dissonance here, maybe it would make more sense to find somewhere where you're in harmony, rather than trying to change SpoFi to fit your standards.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 11:09 AM on October 08

I know one thing. If losing weight after retirement is a sign of steroid use, the only cream Tony Gwynn ever used was whipped.

posted by tselson at 11:52 AM on October 08

Your other comments in this thread are to criticize other persons words with sound bites. Actually, two of apoch's four comments in this thread were playing along with a joke that somebody else started, and his third and fourth were to call you out for being obtuse, to recognize that your statements make very little sense, and to (correctly) peg you as not having the courage of your convictions when it comes to your statements. Nowhere in those four posts did he drop sound bites in. In fact, I can't find any audio at all in his posts. Also, it doesn't matter who your comments are directed to. If they appear on this page, any one of the over 16,000 members of this blog are entitled to reply to them. You want privacy, click on another member's name; you'll find their profile, which often includes their email address and/or an IM handle. Have a private conversation that way if you'd like, but don't bitch and moan about other members replying to your comments. That's what we do here. Your contributions to this site so far seem to have been limited to the following: --telling us all how great sports were when you were a kid, and how they suck now; --making ignorant, unprovable statements, then backing away from them as fast as possible when somebody calls you on it; --making petulant comments and acting like a child when questioned. There are a lot of sports sites where that kind of behavior is welcomed; this isn't one of them. In my experience, spirited discussion is always welcomed here. You can try to screw that up all you want, but I daresay you'll be unsuccessful.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 11:55 AM on October 08

You know who has lost a lot of weight since retiring from baseball? Joe DiMaggio. He's a skeleton compared to the man he was when he played in the majors.

posted by grum@work at 12:53 PM on October 08

If losing weight after retirement is a sign of steroid use, the only cream Tony Gwynn ever used was whipped. Gorge-us.

posted by yerfatma at 01:04 PM on October 08

This thread is comedy gold. That goes for the intentional and unintentional humour.

posted by apoch at 01:13 PM on October 08

Baseball fans like to rant and rave about Bonds/McGwire/Sosa/Palmeiro, but when one of their favourite players has accusations leveled at them (cough*Ortiz*cough*Howard*cough*), they immediately rush to their defense. Comparing the accusations against bonds with those against ortiz is a huge stretch and completely unfair to ortiz. And if you're going to randomly throw ortiz into the mix don't forget clemens. Gotta be fair. Ah, but comparing accusations against McGwire/Sosa and Ortiz/Howard is definitely fair, since the only difference between them is that Ortiz/Howard have never been dragged in front of a Senate hearing. And thank you for proving my point by "rushing" to Ortiz's defence. ;)

posted by grum@work at 01:30 PM on October 08

Ah, but comparing accusations against McGwire/Sosa and Ortiz/Howard is definitely fair, since the only difference between them is that Ortiz/Howard have never been dragged in front of a Senate hearing. Well, I disagree with you, but our discussion would be similar to a thousand other on sportsfilter, so I'll just leave it at that. Though I will say that there were reasons why Mcgwire was pulled in front of the senate, and even if you believe the same reasons follow ortiz, one of the biggest marks against Mcgwire was his performance in front of the senate. Only if Ortiz came off as badly as Mcgwire would your comparison hold water, and that's would be a groundless assumption on your part. And thank you for proving my point by "rushing" to Ortiz's defence. ;) Where did I say you're wrong? Did I say he didn't? That would be defending Ortiz. I pointed out that one, a comparison to bonds is a huge stretch to anyone with any knowledge of the bonds situation, and that two, if you're going to just start throwing names out that have a possibility of steroid use don't discriminate. Calling clemens out and pointing out the unfairness of your comparison doesn't defend ortiz. And while yes, it's hard to separate personal feelings from fact, I have a feeling that you picked Ortiz and not Clemens, who has had at least as many steroid rumors circling him as Ortiz, because you're a bigger fan of Clemens than Ortiz.

posted by justgary at 02:46 PM on October 08

I have a feeling that you picked Ortiz and not Clemens, who has had at least as many steroid rumors circling him as Ortiz, because you're a bigger fan of Clemens than Ortiz. Actually, I picked Ortiz over Clemens because more people like Ortiz than Clemens. Therefore, it's more likely someone would (rightly) be offended by my suggested association. I say anything nasty about Clemens, and half of SpoFi says "Bravo!". That said, Ortiz did have this comment about steroids, so it's not like he's absolutely untouchable in the world of steroids: "You've got to be careful. ... I used to buy a protein shake in my country. I don't do that any more because they don't have the approval for that here, so I know that, so I'm off of buying things at the GNC back in the Dominican. But it can happen anytime, it can happen. I don't know. I don't know if I drank something in my youth, not knowing it." How different is that than "I just used what the trainer gave me. He told me it was flaxseed oil. I didn't know it was anything illegal at the time."?

posted by grum@work at 05:13 PM on October 08

He's a skeleton compared to the man he was when he played in the majors.</em Loved that line.

posted by dviking at 06:03 PM on October 08

This week has produced some fantastic comments.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 06:33 PM on October 08

The only thing Jones is sorry about is getting caught. On deck - Bonds.

posted by longgreenline at 12:09 AM on October 10

I say anything nasty about Clemens, and half of SpoFi says "Bravo!". Agreed, but Clemens is a polarizing figure, Ortiz, for the most part, is not. Half hate Clemens, half believe him the second coming. They're the same ones calling his 2 inning stint 2 nights ago heroic. So I wouldn't feel too sorry for the guy. Although I have to admit, I have to start paying better attention. I've don't remember reading any "nasty" comments about clemens from you. That said, Ortiz did have this comment about steroids, so it's not like he's absolutely untouchable in the world of steroids: "You've got to be careful. ... I used to buy a protein shake in my country. I don't do that any more because they don't have the approval for that here, so I know that, so I'm off of buying things at the GNC back in the Dominican. But it can happen anytime, it can happen. I don't know. I don't know if I drank something in my youth, not knowing it." How different is that than "I just used what the trainer gave me. He told me it was flaxseed oil. I didn't know it was anything illegal at the time."? Ortiz learned a valuable lesson with that comment. Don't be honest, don't be open. "One game at a time". Fans kill you when you speak your mind. Anyway, that statement doesn't really say anything. Is he protecting himself from future accusations? I don't know. I can't read his mind. If you're comparing ortiz to clemens, that's fair. If you're comparing him to bonds with that one statement, come on. You can throw that statement away and bonds still has a ton of evidence behind him. Unless things change it's completely unfair to compare ortiz to bonds.

posted by justgary at 12:52 AM on October 10

longgreenline: The only thing Jones is sorry about is getting caught. How do you know what she's thinking and feeling? And how, exactly, did she get "caught", as you phrase it? justgary: I don't know. I can't read his mind. Maybe you ought to take some lessons from longgreenline.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:57 AM on October 10

I've don't remember reading any "nasty" comments about clemens from you. Well, that's because I think he's one of the greatest pitchers of all time. Also, he put up two of his best seasons while playing for my favourite team. Finally, I always laugh myself silly when I see that phone commercial he did with his wife this year.

posted by grum@work at 07:58 PM on October 10

Well, that's because I think he's one of the greatest pitchers of all time. No doubt. Except in the playoffs, when he's merely good. Finally, I always laugh myself silly when I see that phone commercial he did with his wife this year. Not nearly as funny as the jackets she sells online.

posted by justgary at 08:56 PM on October 10

Why? Because their parents are trying to make a fashion statement No,because some of them are, believe it or not. I never said MM used steriods. I was making a comment-that's all. If you choose to make assumptions about my comments I can live with that. posted by brickman at 7:27 PM CDT on October 7 You did too, stop trying to lie and just stick to one point of view already. You stated you beleive MM took PED's right here. By the way you are not criticised for your opinions, you get that for floundering when you can't back up anything you do say.

posted by jojomfd1 at 06:40 AM on October 11

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