FanDuel - WFBC

December 19, 2006

AI to Denver: "Iverson, pending NBA officials' approval, will be traded to the Denver Nuggets for a package including guard Andre Miller, forward Joe Smith and both of Denver's 2007 first-round picks, according to a source with knowledge of the trade talks between the teams." A bright spot amidst a huge mess plaguing the Denver organization?

posted by PublicUrinal to basketball at 02:58 PM - 67 comments

At that price, I'm glad the Celtics didn't get him. That seems like Denver over-paid.

posted by yerfatma at 03:00 PM on December 19

If AI can work well with 'Melo, this isn't a bad trade at all for Denver. But can two of the top-scoring shoot-first options work well together? And with all of their youth, was it worth it for Denver to give up 2 picks in what is expected to be a pretty deep draft?

posted by PublicUrinal at 03:03 PM on December 19

And thus began the Great Joe Smith Comeback of '07. Just watch as he leads Philly to the promised land.

posted by cobra! at 03:06 PM on December 19

I agree that Denver seems to have overpaid. The most interesting part of this deal though will be watching how well Iverson and Anthony play together.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 03:10 PM on December 19

I'm not sure that Denver overpaid. The first round picks are probably going to be around the 20s, not lottery picks. Philadelphia doesn't get only the expiring contracts, but has to take the $18-$19 million for Miller. Denver gets a superstar that can contribute to the team right now.

posted by bperk at 03:28 PM on December 19

Philadelphia would like to thank former Temple Owl Mardy Collins for getting Anthony to punch him. Worked out great for the Sixers. Two first round picks are still first round picks, even if they are high teens or 20s. The Sixers had to start rebuilding, they'll have their pick which will obviously be lottery, so the other two are gravy. How many years does Miller have left on his deal? I'm hearing two counting this year. Iverson's shooting 41.3% this year, he's averaging half a shot a minute. Karl's got his work cut out for him.

posted by SummersEve at 04:43 PM on December 19

I just don't know how AI and Melo are going to react to each other and that makes the price seem pretty high. But, if they both find enough shots to keep them happy then this could be a championship caliber combo for the next couple of years. There are things to be happy about on both sides of this trade.

posted by tron7 at 05:18 PM on December 19

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the role players see their numbers dip significantly. You aren't going to be able to convince Carmelo that he needs to cut his production so his guard can score. You aren't going to convince AI to cut his production so a kid who has never made an All-Star game can score. I just can't see either one of them deferring to the other. Maybe I'll be wrong. All I know is that the east is now even further diluted.

posted by igottheblues at 05:41 PM on December 19

Classic .75 cents for a dollar, deal. The picks are decent. That's about it.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 05:50 PM on December 19

Denver now has four perimeter players who need the ball in their hands to create scoring opportunities in Melo, AI, JR, and Boykins. They just traded away their only "ball distributor". Iverson very well could spark this team with his defense, and by giving up the rock a tad more. Denver may not be done dealing either. Philly has lost its scoring leader, and if the past is any indicator, Miller should distribute the ball well, but that won't translate into wins (see Cavs, and Clips). Joe Smith will be coming off the cap, and McFarlin likely won't see much playing time (if at all). So you're left with picks in the low 20's, which are notoriously dicey. I seem to remember reading an article somewhere that postulated that 2nd rounders often out-perform players drafted in the 20's, but i can't seem to track it down. The trade seems to be a wash, the 76ers are still mired by the cap until Webber comes off the books, and they'll have to wait for the young talent to develop in the interim. The Nuggets are making a big push to make some noise in the post-season this year, but with key contributors out due to injury/suspension and having to deal with forming a new identity in-season seems a bit much to overcome. Having said all that, Philly lost this deal. They could do nothing BUT lose on this deal. Any time a franchise trades away the player that embodies it, they better be getting a star who shines just as bright, or have one waiting in the wings. The 76ers have neither.

posted by lilnemo at 05:53 PM on December 19

Iverson's never been a high-percentage shooter, but maybe with some of the defense's attention on Melo, he won't need as many shots to get his points. I think at this stage in his career, he really just cares about not losing. If not, it'll be Kobe v. Shaq all over again. As far as the Sixers go, putting a true PG like Miller into the lineup might accelerate the development of some of those young guys King's bet the farm on. Season's already pretty much lost anyway, might as well get them all the PT they can and hope for that top pick in July.

posted by cybermac at 05:59 PM on December 19

I'm not sure that Denver overpaid. The first round picks are probably going to be around the 20s, not lottery picks. Yeah, that's fair enough. I was thinking of it in terms of "if they were demanding two first round picks, that's steep". Not as big a deal for the Nuggets as it would have been for the Celtics. I still think Miller is a fantastic PG, but, as 'nemo suggested, his talent will be wasted on a shitty team. Again.

posted by yerfatma at 06:40 PM on December 19

This will help the other AI left in Philly. Remember what he did in the rookie game with a real point guard passing to him? Plus he will no longer have Iverson to watch during the game. This will also help Rod Carney and Wille Green not to mention Kyle Korver, whom are all shooters. Not great shooters, but shooters none the less. Philly's 1st rounder is gone unless it's a lottery pick (which by all rights it should be). The 2 first rounders from Denver are great picks to have. Doesn't matter where they are with such a deep draft. Philly will be making serious noise come draft day, after they find out which lottery pick they have. They will be able to package the 1st round picks with a number of players they might move for some decent talent i.e, Steven Hunter and a 1st rounder, Willie Green and a 1st rounder, Louis Williams and a 1st rounder, Shavlik Randolph and a 1st rounder. The possibilities are endless with 3 1st round picks. Denver had the 2 1st round picks to spend this year beings that they have all their picks the following yrs(no future picks have been traded). If Iverson commits to passing the ball as he did in the Olympics (not his fault nobody could make a shot), he will be Nash like in the west. I've seen him get 14-15 assts when 1 or 2 of his teammates got hot (which we know wasn't often). Either way he has the ability. Until Denver gets it's players back, they could have the smallest starting backcourt (Iverson, Boykins) since Mugsy Bogues and whomever he was playing with at the time.

posted by Bishop at 07:37 PM on December 19

Terrific trade for Philly. All Philly has is the future (they haven't even had that for some time) and with three first rounders in a very deep draft there is finally something to look forward to. Surprised they got this much for AI. He's arguably the most exciting player in the NBA but it's difficult to get a team around him that can win. Good job Sixers.

posted by DudeDykstra at 07:59 PM on December 19

Hope yer right dude. Saw Iverson play a few times, what a talent. Its not AI's fault the Sixers stink, still hated to see him go, but one has to believe that the Sixers management could use a little help. Bring back Pat Croce!!

posted by GoBirds at 08:38 PM on December 19

If I was KG, I would be ticked off. The one chance for the T'wolves to bring in a player that can make a big enough impact to possibly make a huge playoff/championship run, and Kevin McHale fails, YET AGAIN. I see why they weren't able to get him, seeing all that Denver gave up (especially the draft picks, which we did not have), but Kevin still should have done something to get the deal done. KG deserves it, and AI would have a superstar who actually doesn't mind giving up the ball to someone else

posted by zachaweenus at 09:21 PM on December 19

Denver gave up two first round pick in order to get A.I. but the two first round picks were theres and dallas, if both first round pick are late first round pick it will not matter.

posted by msusportsguy at 10:37 PM on December 19

I'm really really happy to see AI get out of Philly and play for a contender. However, having the top two scorers in the league on the same team will not be easy to manage. I dont see 'Melo taking a back seat to AI, he's convinced this is his breakout year, so the only way Denver will succeed is if AI concedes to 'Melo. If he can play Pippen to his Jordan for a few years, there is no stopping this team. And if I was Philly, I would lose the rest of this years games and hope for Oden in the draft.

posted by sportingo at 02:49 AM on December 20

Everyone keeps talking about how AI and Melo will mix, but we have to remember that Carmelo is suspended 15 games. During this stretch without Carmelo, AI will be able to adapt, and basically run the whole team. If the Nuggets hadn't acquired someone such as AI, they would have lost all momentum by the end of those 15 games. With AI, the Nuggets are contenders, so I guess the trade worked out for all three sides. (Phili, Denver, Iverson).

posted by Kendall at 05:28 AM on December 20

They could do nothing BUT lose on this deal. In the short term you're absolutely right. But they've set themselves up to dig out from this mess. Iverson's great, no doubt, but the Sixers have missed the playoffs the last two seasons. So it wasn't working. For whatever reason, it was broken. Now they can fix it. They get one salary off next year in Joe Smith, along with the deadwood (Mashburn and MacCulloch), then they get about 28 million off the following season when McKie and Webber come off, plus Miller's deal is up. Interesting about the late first round picks, too, lilnemo. The problem is you have to give a guarenteed contract to a player that's a couple of picks from being a second-rounder (and therefore no guarenteed deal so much less of a gamble). But this year, there are basically two classes here since the new age rule went into effect last season. So maybe there will be some depth there, or maybe they'll be able to package the deals. Like you said, a wash, but it gives the Sixers a chance to get out from under the bad deals from a couple years ago.

posted by SummersEve at 07:19 AM on December 20

Denver seems to have overpaid I'm going to come across as biased since I'm such a huge Allen Iverson fan but this is a great trade and in no way did Denver overpay. Both teams got what they wanted and A.I. is going to play a huge role with the Nuggets. The Answer and 'Melo played well together when Iverson was co-captain of the 2004 Olympic men's basketball team. Don't get me wrong, I'm never going to another Philadelhia 76ers basketball game unless A.I. and the Nuggets come to town but the Sixers finally did right by A.I. They sent him to a contender and now their organization can re-build. I strongly believe that the Sixers are vying to claim Ohia States Greg Odom when the draft comes (7 feet / 280lbs along with 19.6ppg and 9.8rpg) so that they'll have a low post presence. A.I. is only 31 years old and even though he is 2nd in the league in scoring (behind new teammate Carmelo Anthony) it is being said that he's "lost a step or two". Well, if The Answer has lost some speed, he's still a hell of a lot faster than most guys playing. Bubba Chuck is one of the toughest competitors to ever grace the hardwood and will show and prove that what he did for 10 1/2 years in Philly, he can do for a few more years in Denver. Now that he has a real team around him, A.I. may finally get the one thing that will be that icing on the cake in his brilliant career, an NBA championship.

posted by BornIcon at 07:48 AM on December 20

Sorry guys, I meant to spell Greg Oden, I must of been thinking about Lamar Odom

posted by BornIcon at 07:53 AM on December 20

All the talk continues to be about AI mixing with Melo (and it should). But most people are forgetting that this will be the first time since Dikimbe Mutombo that AI will be playing with a proven defensive center (M. Camby). Philly currently has no players in the top 30 in rebounding. Camby is 6th at 11.0 pg (31.6 min pg) and he's grabbing 16.9 per 40 min ( which is tied with D. Howard for 2nd best in the league, T Chandler leads- 17.1 rp 40 min). Camby is also 5th in the league in blocks. Remember the 01' allstar game when Mutombo grabbed 22 boards and AI had 25 pts 5 asts 4 stls coming back from down 18 going into the 4th qrt to win it 111-110? That led Philly to trade for Mutombo and they went to the finals. AI+Good defensive center=NBA Finals+ Carmelo=NBA Champions?????

posted by Bishop at 08:38 AM on December 20

Hey Bishop, I dig your mathematics. Sounds good to me.

posted by BornIcon at 08:51 AM on December 20

A team traded for a player based on an All-Star Game performance?

posted by smithers at 09:02 AM on December 20

If I was KG, I would be ticked off. The one chance for the T'wolves to bring in a player that can make a big enough impact to possibly make a huge playoff/championship run, and Kevin McHale fails, YET AGAIN. According to the (very possibly full of shit) Minneapolis media, the sticking point with the Wolves was that Philly wouldn't consider any deal that didn't include Foye, and McHale refused to put him on the table. I actually think this shows unusual savvy on McHale's part, for once thinking about the mid-to-long term instead of sacrificing everything for right now. I like Iverson, but hate the Nuggets, so I guess at this point I just have to hope that we see a lof of gears grinding into each other.

posted by cobra! at 09:08 AM on December 20

I recall when Camby and Iverson met head-to-head in the NCAA Tournament (Sweet Sixteen, maybe?) It was before my Georgetown days, so I was a UMass fan, and I kept saying "STOP this little bastard!" I was at that 2001 All-Star Game in DC, it was wicked awesome.

posted by Venicemenace at 09:11 AM on December 20

I was at that 2001 All-Star Game in DC, it was wicked awesome You must be from Boston.

posted by BornIcon at 09:22 AM on December 20

Today is an exciting day to be a Denver sports fan. The Denver Nuggets have acquired Allen Iverson from the Philadelphia 76ers. They gave up Andre Miller, Joe Smith (not the Mormon prophet – the former # 1 overall pick) and two first round draft picks. Miller, the best player the Nuggets gave up, plays the same position as AI, so losing him is no big deal. Joe Smith rarely plays. The draft picks are birds in a bush. AI is a point guard in hand. And what a point guard he is. At 31, he’s in his prime. He is under contract for this year and two more. He is also the second leading scorer in the entire league. Some have raised the question of whether or not AI and Carmelo Anthony, the Nuggets’ current star and the leading scorer in the league, can successfully co-exist on one team. I think they can. No team has two great defenders. For instance, San Antonio's Bruce Bowen has to decide if he is going to guard AI or Melo. The other will score. A lot. I wants to win a championship. He has all the individual awards he needs. He has no championship ring. He can win one in Denver with Melo. Shaquille O’Neal deferred to Dwyane Wade in Miami and won another ring. Earl Monroe was dealt to the Knicks in the '70's and people said the flamboyant, high scoring guard would not get along with the Knicks' equally flamboyant and high scoring guard Walt Frazier. They got along. They won the 1973 championship. Two alpha dog scorers can get along, as long as winning is a higher priority than scoring. If both AI and Melo make that commitment, they will succeed. There are no guarantees it will work. The move is a gamble. But it is a great gamble. I have never really been sure what the question was, but I know The Answer is in Denver.

posted by BlueCarp at 09:23 AM on December 20

Well put BlueCarp and I agree with everything you said. I believe that this can work and that the Nuggets will succeed in the long run. If A.I. and Carmelo work as a cohesive unit as they did in the 2004 Olympics, they may have a chance to do some great things together in Denver. I am officially now a Denver Nuggets fan with Allen Iverson there and I have the Sixers to thank for that. Looks like Christmas came early for A.I. and the Nuggets and for me as well. Now where can I find a #3 Allen Iverson, Denver Nuggets jersey? Anyone?

posted by BornIcon at 09:46 AM on December 20

There is nooooo way that this trade works out for Philly or Denver (this year). There aren't enough games/practices for Den to get it together. Melo can't even begin to play with AI until his 15 game suspension is over. Then it will take another 20-30 games for them to get comfortable with eachother, and by that time they have already missed the playoffs. The Sixers were already shit and now they are somehow worse, if that is possible. Anyone dreaming of a championship in Denver this season needs to wake up and smell the coco crispies. Look for A.I. to be moved in the off-season. I just want to add that I am an Iverson fan, but it's going to take at least 1 year for him to adjust to being the #2 option; which he will have to do because Melo won't have it any other way.

posted by yay-yo at 11:15 AM on December 20

but it's going to take at least 1 year for him to adjust to being the #2 option Iverson is not going to be the #2 option. When he begins his new career as a Denver Nugget, Carmelo will be suspended therefore letting A.I. get used to his new teammates. Like I said before, A.I. and Carmelo have played together before so they're already used to each another's game, it's getting used to his new teammates that going to need some work. A.I. will fit in nicely and by the time Carmelo comes back, 'Melo will feel like he has something to prove and so that one-two punch of The Answer and 'Melo will be a KO blow for the opposition. Look for this trade to help the Nuggets THIS year (Yeah, I said it...this year!!) and as far as the Sixers goes, who really cares anymore? That franchise has had the privilege of having Hall of Famers Wilt Chamberlain, Moses Malone and Charles Barkley but ended up trading them. I'm tired of seeing that organization being run to the ground and hope that they get what they deserve. Which by the way may be the #1 pick of the 2007 draft. Don't worry, if they get Greg Oden and he proves to be the force that he's been in Ohio State and transitions that to the NBA, they'll trade him as well.

posted by BornIcon at 11:39 AM on December 20

There aren't enough games/practices for Den to get it together Practices??? We're talkin' bout PRACTICES??We're sittin' here supposed to be talking about a franchise player and we're talking about practice! (sorry- couldn't pass that one up)

posted by Bury Bonds at 02:14 PM on December 20

I strongly believe that the Sixers are vying to claim Ohia States Greg [Oden] when the draft comes Wow, that's going out on a limb.

posted by SummersEve at 03:44 PM on December 20

A team traded for a player based on an All-Star Game performance? As my esteemed caalleague from Baaston put it. It was simply "wicked awesome" Unless you saw what they did, and paid attention to it as well, the Answer to your question would be.......... YES. That is exactly what happened. Mutombo showed he wasn't done yet. He also showed how he could grab a board and find AI streaking at mid-court. Larry Brown actually made reference to the All Start game performance during his press conference, after the deal for Mutombo (which ironically took place about 2 weeks after the all star game).

posted by Bishop at 05:19 PM on December 20

Shaquille O’Neal deferred to Dwyane Wade in Miami and won another ring. I don't think that comparison works. O'Neal spent years dealing with Kobe Bryant and was already used to sharing the load with another top scorer regardless of how much of an asshole that scorer is. Iverson has always been the number one option, the same thing with Anthony. There are going to have to be some sacrifices made and I don't think Allen Iverson and Carmelo Anthony are going to be able to make those sacrifices. That said, if it does work out Denver is going to be one dangerous team.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 05:23 PM on December 20

I say AI is going to shut everyone up with 1 of his 35 pt 15 asst games within the 1st week they both play together. He never had anything to prove in Philly after his first 2 years, the entire city loved and believed in him. Now there are people doubting his ability adapt. He will scorch anyone who tries to guard him for the rest of the year. It will be so ridiculous, that he may turn Carmelo into a fan that watches him play, just like he did to the other AI in Philly. Denver better hope that Carmelo learns how to stay in the flow. More than 1 Sixer as admitted to just watching Iverson (while on the court) when he is on fire. Imagine while averaging 31 ppg you can still get 7 assists pg playing with admitted spectators on your team. Iverson doesn't pass? Well neither would I if I just broke someone's ankles driving to the basket, and then I try to kick the ball out to an outside shooter and 2 or 3 of them are slapping each other 5 saying, oh crap, did you see that? When would you see AI get 10-11 asts while getting 30 points? When Kyle Korver and the other shooters were shooting better that 50% from the floor. Perfect examples of Philly's problem not being AI and his amount of shots. Loss to Miami on Nov 27 AI 45 pts and only 4 assts. Sixers shoot 37% from the floor Iguodala 5-16 Randolph 1-8 Green 3-10 Dalmebert 0-6 Heat shot 58% from the floor. Nov 24 Chi/ Sixers Win, Sixers shoot 54% from the floor. Chicago shot 53%. Iguodala 7-14 Dalembert 2-3 Korver 3-4 Henderson 3-4 Green 8-12 AI 46 points and 10 assts. AI would be averaging 10 assts pg if his team could shoot. AI+ good consistent shooters= NBA Finals

posted by Bishop at 10:08 PM on December 20

The Answer and 'Melo will be a KO blow for the opposition. Look for this trade to help the Nuggets THIS year (Yeah, I said it...this year!!) You're not a Denver fan or anything. Don't go off and bet your house or car on a championship run. I know it's exciting that you got AI but once the new car smell wears off, you'll understand what I'm talking about.

posted by yay-yo at 10:58 PM on December 20

now denver has 2 punk ass bums, Marsh-melo and A(chumpstain)I

posted by vito938 at 11:53 PM on December 20

I don't see how the second name works. Couldn't you put any parenthetical you cared to between the initials?

posted by yerfatma at 05:32 AM on December 21

Yes, Allen Iverson never had any offensive players (he could co-exist with) in PhiladeLphia in his entire 11 years there. What was the problem? AI's the answer. Talented player, extremely talented, and he'll definitely work somewhere else, but the Sixers spoiled him.

posted by SummersEve at 06:30 AM on December 21

You're not a Denver fan or anything. Don't go off and bet your house or car on a championship run. I know it's exciting that you got AI but once the new car smell wears off, you'll understand what I'm talking about. Your right yay-yo, I'm not a Denver fan since I hate the cold. I'm more of an Allen Iverson fan and have been ever since I saw him play for John Thompson in Georgetown and then became more of a fan when I saw him shake the shit out of the greatest player ever, Michael Jordan. I have been watching A.I. play from day one of his career with the Sixers and still, that "new car smell" as you so eloquently put it, is still lingering in the air. Now that he's surrounded with some quality players, it's time for everyone to understand what he's all about and that's called winning.

posted by BornIcon at 11:21 AM on December 21

Like you said, a wash, but it gives the Sixers a chance to get out from under the bad deals from a couple years ago. On paper, yes, their payroll should go down. But unfortunately, since Billy King is miraculously still GM, any cap space the 76ers have will be eaten up by a bad free agent acquisition. I wouldn't be surprised if King had managed to tie up the cap savings in a couple of horrible contracts which will either keep them from re-upping their young talent, or forcing them to trade it for players who are (or should be) retired. Needless to say, but the Sixers are a long way from getting out of the woods. As for Iverson, he very well may lead a reeling Nuggets team into the postseason, after that anything could happen. But I don't think AI is long for Denver, honestly, I'd be surprised if he finished out his career there.

posted by lilnemo at 12:24 PM on December 21

and then became more of a fan when I saw him shake the shit out of the greatest player ever, Michael Jordan OK, I remember this play, and yes, Jordan did get victimized, but I never saw why it was such a big deal. Jordan is 6'6" and not a true point, Iverson is what 6'1"? and the protypical point. Big deal that a point juked a shooter, they're supposed to. And I'm sure that Jordan wasn't assigned to cover Iverson, the fact that Jordan was even on him had to be the result of a switch. I'm sure Iverson could cross-over Bruce Bowen or any other defender you want to throw at him, especially taller guys. Why the fuss about Jordan? I guess maybe just because of how unusual it was to ever see him look overmatched.

posted by Bill Lumbergh at 12:49 PM on December 21

"yes, Jordan did get victimized, but I never saw why it was such a big deal.....Big deal that a point juked a shooter.....Why the fuss about Jordan?" Well, because it was Michael Jordan and A.I. was still a rookie, that's what all the "fuss" is about. Don't try and make it seem as if crossing over Jordan wasn't a big deal since MJ used to cross people over or dunk over them regardless of how tall or how small they were. It was pure classic and will always be the #1 highlight of A.I.'s career, that is until he finally wins a championship. (hopefully)

posted by BornIcon at 01:27 PM on December 21

that's a pretty sad "#1 career highlight." "One time I faked Michael Jordan and made a jump shot. That was the greatest moment of my career." weak.

posted by Bill Lumbergh at 01:33 PM on December 21

No, what's weak is your argument. In Michael Jordan, we're talking about THE greatest player to ever play the game here. If A.I. crossed over Shaq now that would make your point of that being a 'lowlight'. That same year when A.I. shook MJ was the same year MJ won the Defensive Player of the Year Award so it's not like he was up against some chump that couldn't defend worth squat. Also, you were right that it was a switch but MJ wanted to cover A.I. at that moment so it wasn't like he didn't have it coming. What goes around comes around....except MJ never did get a chance to do the same to A.I.

posted by BornIcon at 01:50 PM on December 21

Born, do you think you could pull your face away from Iverson's stink hole long enough to come back to reality? How about the fact that he banked the shot in and didn't call it? I think Iverson is a great player, but if you have really been watching him for his entire career and his "career defining" moment is a crossover and a banked in 17 footer, you need to go watch some more replays. It would have been 10X better for Iverson to go to Minnesota. Now he is going to be blamed for the downfall of the Nuggets (when in reality its all Melo's fault for losing his cool). The Nuggets were hot prior to this incident/trade, it's all down-hill from here folks (about a mile down-hill). Unfortunately for Iverson his trade just happened to coincide with this incident and he will bear the brunt of the fallout when the Nuggets miss the playoffs this year.

posted by yay-yo at 03:10 PM on December 21

No, what's weak is your argument. In Michael Jordan, we're talking about THE greatest player to ever play the game here. Step back and breathe. Has ESPN, et al left us like this: every moment we witness is The Best Ever and every player is The Greatest? AI broke down MJ once. Ok.

posted by yerfatma at 03:29 PM on December 21

This implies ESPN has moments where it's not talking about Michael Vick. That smells like lies.

posted by Mr Bismarck at 04:12 PM on December 21

It would have been 10X better for Iverson to go to Minnesota. Now he is going to be blamed for the downfall of the Nuggets (when in reality its all Melo's fault for losing his cool). I highly doubt it will be that extreme. Provided Iverson can adjust quickly, he should be able to keep the Nuggets running hot for the next fifteen games that Anthony is out for. However, once Anthony comes back I think it will get very interesting indeed.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 04:45 PM on December 21

Not to poop on the de-deification of Michael Jordan because of one play or anything, but something else you should keep in mind: Iverson was in his second year in the league, and was 24 years old. Jordan had been in the league since 1984, and was ten years older than Iverson. Even the great ones get old. Iverson is a great scorer, a great player, but you can't blame his failure to win a championship all on his supporting cast(s). How many championships have Scottie Pippen, Steve Kerr, Bill Cartwright, B.J. Armstrong, Jim Paxson, or Luc Freakin' Longley, combined, won without Jordan? Put these guys around AI, and they still don't win. Put 'em around Air Jordan, and you get six rings.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 07:30 PM on December 21

He didn't use the backboard, , but if that was Iverson's best career move, he's not as good as I thought he was.

posted by Bill Lumbergh at 08:46 PM on December 21

People argue over the oddest things. The main thing about "AI x'ing up MJ" was the comparison it drew to MJ doing the same thing to Larry Bird. People were amazed to watch Jordan make the legend look old and slow the first time Bird played D on MJ and likewise people were amazed that some streetball upstart was abusing the greatest player to ever play the game. It's kind of like saying the most amazing thing Shaq ever did was pull the entire backboard down. Was it? No. Did you know he was a monster after he pulled it down? Yes (if you didn't know before that). Did you know AI was going to be a little monster when you saw him use MJ? I did. Put these guys around AI, and they still don't win. Put 'em around Air Jordan, and you get six rings. How many championship finals have Aaron Mckie, Eric Snow, George Lynch, Tyrone Hill, Theo Ratliff, Rodney Buford, Raja Bell And Matt Geiger ever been to? You take AI off that roster and that's a 20 win team. By the way, I think Steve Kerr won 2 in San Antonio didn't he?

posted by Bishop at 11:39 PM on December 21

How many championship finals have Aaron Mckie, Eric Snow, George Lynch, Tyrone Hill, Theo Ratliff, Rodney Buford, Raja Bell And Matt Geiger ever been to? If you put these guys with MJ during his prime, they have a better chance of winning a title than they do with AI. That's my take, anyway. I've seen both men play for years, and I see more leadership from Jordan. I could give a fuck about cornrows, tattoos, criminal records, rap albums, or anything else. I saw Jordan regularly will his team to win. I don't see AI having the same force of personality when it comes to leading. By the way, I think Steve Kerr won 2 in San Antonio didn't he? I believe you're absolutely right. I didn't say these guys couldn't win without MJ, but I'd bet you my next paycheck that none of 'em (besides Kerr, who managed to go from playing with one of the most dominant players in NBA history to playing with one of the most dominant big men in NBA history) would have any championship rings in their jewelry box without MJ. I know you're an AI fan, and that's fine. I still believe the debate is valid, though. Just because he's a scoring machine, just because he broke MJ down once, when Jordan was 35 and AI Was 24, doesn't elevate Iverson to the level of His Airness.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 05:41 AM on December 22

Born, do you think you could pull your face away from Iverson's stink hole long enough to come back to reality? Dude, that's too funny. You truly had me cracking up. First off, he didn't "bank" that shot, it went right in. Thanks yay-yo, for the clip. Secondly, I never claimed that crossing over Jordan was his "career defining" moment, I was only pointing out how fantastic of a move it was and how it was against the great Michael Jordan. ...every moment we witness is The Best Ever and every player is The Greatest? Now this is another thing that I never claimed since I consider Michael Jordan to be the greatest basketball player to ever play the game. I love watching the way Allen Iverson plays because he just plays all out. People can knock him for whatever reason (cornrows, tattoos, criminal records, rap albums) but the fact is, we're still watching a future Hall of Famer perform at an extremly high level. How can someone not respect that? When Jordan used to drive to the paint, the knock on him was that he would disrespect his opponents by sticking his tongue out. Now I'm sure everyone knows by now that that was pretty much his trademark. We are all individuals and no one is expected to be like the person next to us or the players that played before them. Just enjoy it while it lasts. Merry Christmas everyone.

posted by BornIcon at 07:22 AM on December 22

It's kind of like saying the most amazing thing Shaq ever did was pull the entire backboard down So your saying that pulling down the backboard (he actually did that twice...not in the same game though) wasn't amazing? Ok, Shaq won a few rings (4) and is a future Hall of Famer but when I think of him pulling down that backboard, that right there still to this day amazes me. That and the video of when Shaq fought Sir Charles Barkley which I think is pretty funny.

posted by BornIcon at 07:36 AM on December 22

Which of those things makes him better than Wilt or Bill Russell though? That was the point . . . forget it.

posted by yerfatma at 08:47 AM on December 22

How can that be the point if the question was never raised?

posted by BornIcon at 09:05 AM on December 22

I always thought Oscar Robertson was the greatest N.B.A. player ever. But, I've been wrong before. Merry Christmas to one and all.

posted by tommytrump at 09:48 AM on December 22

How can that be the point if the question was never raised? It's nice to know we're working with a bunch of Literalists (see Synecdoche for how those examples were used to try to speak to a larger issue). For someone who objected to being taken literally in another thread, you seem to insist on not seeing a larger picture here.

posted by yerfatma at 10:38 AM on December 22

One story has nothing to do with another. Don't try and make your point while cutting and pasting quotes from two different subjects.

posted by BornIcon at 11:28 AM on December 22

It's called linking to supporting evidence. Welcome to the internets.

posted by lilnemo at 12:40 PM on December 22

I never claimed that crossing over Jordan was his "career defining" moment It was pure classic and will always be the #1 highlight of A.I.'s career Icon, I think your mind got crossed-over.

posted by Bill Lumbergh at 12:43 PM on December 22

No more links on SportsFilter.

posted by yerfatma at 03:03 PM on December 22

That would make for an interesting web site.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 04:20 PM on December 22

Meanwhile, AI drops a double deuce on Sac-town in an (expected)loss. But shooting 9-15 and adding 10 assts are the big numbers here. 10 assts with no lobs to Camby (out with a broken finger), no kick-outs to a deep shooter like JR Smith, and not 1 dish to Carmelo. I think it'll be to late for this year, although they will make a push. Next year could be their year. If you add a healthy K-Mart to that line-up....forget about it.

posted by Bishop at 04:37 AM on December 23

You're not logged in. Please log in or register.