FanDuel - WFBC

August 22, 2006

Jays' Gibbons, Lilly Get Into Argument.: I'm sorry, but if someone ends up with a bloody nose then it's more then an "argument". Maybe some people are just wound a little too tightly to be a big league manager? So how long until Lilly is on the block to go?

posted by commander cody to baseball at 01:11 AM - 47 comments

The heat of the penannt race and the ugly loss to the A's no doubt contributed to this. Lilly didn't think he should have been pulled after giving up 7 runs in the third after blowing an 8 run lead. Sorry, Ted, I'da yanked your ass, too. From the article: "We hashed it out. Everything is fine now,"Gibbons said. I don't see it as a big deal, and neither do the combatants, they just blew off a little steam, and it may make them closer, who knows? Lilly has been pitching pretty well after his horrid start this spring, I think they need him to stay in the race.

posted by mjkredliner at 02:08 AM on August 22

First Gibbons challenges Shea Hillenbrand to fight then he gets in one with Lilly and it's no big deal? Hash out all you want, someone's got issues. The first rule of the Blue Jays clubhouse is you do not talk about the Blue Jays clubhouse.

posted by SummersEve at 04:13 AM on August 22

Lilly has been pitching pretty well after his horrid start this spring, I think they need him to stay in the race. In case you didn't notice, the race ended yesterday in Boston.

posted by jm_mosier at 06:28 AM on August 22

Lilly doesn't want to "give up the ball" after getting ignited for 7 runs and 2 taters in one inning, and Gibbons has issues? Hillenbrand writes 'the ship is sinking' on the clubhouse blackboard and Gibbons challenged him too. I don't know Gibbons very well, nor am I a Toronto fan, but I like my managers to have a little fire. In case you didn't notice, the race ended yesterday in Boston I am inclined to agree, but stranger things have happened. If I was on Toronto's talented team, I wouldn't throw in the towell just yet.

posted by mjkredliner at 08:13 AM on August 22

What race? The race for second? The Yanks look un-fucking-touchable again. However, the real issue here is that we have a manager who is regularly challenging his players to fights. I welcome this refreshing change of attitude and wish John Gibbons luck after JP scapegoats his ass at the end of the year. Hey, at least this team is still fun to watch, even after giving up an 8 run lead to the light-hitting Oakland A's. This team has been kicking me in the nuts all season long. So much promise, so little delivery.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:18 AM on August 22

A little fire is great, but, much like the Hindenburg, Gibbons has a bit more than a "little fire". If your strategy to keeping the clubhouse requires you to challenge your players to fights, you probably should have started working on it a little sooner. Those cows are long gone.

posted by SummersEve at 08:49 AM on August 22

From the article: "It was mayhem down in the tunnel." Quote of the week. ' Weedy: What race? The race for second? The Yanks look un-fucking-touchable again. I wouldn't say that, because anything can happen, and at this time of year most of the things that can happen are bad (i.e., injuries or personnel doing a nutty). And I will further point out that the Yanks got six games still against Toronto. But it is true that neither Boston nor Toronto is, as they say, in control of their own destiny any more...

posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:22 AM on August 22

"We were on the verge of something regrettable happening," Lilly said. Something regrettable already happened, Ted. It was the Jays not cutting you loose two months ago. I was at last night's game, but I was sitting behind the dugout and my view was blocked, so I can't report on the fisticuffs. I can unequivocally say two things, though: 1) Ted Lilly does not belong in the major leagues. 2) John Gibbons is going to be fired at the end of the season. Oh, and my daughter was on the Jumbotron twice last night. :) I'm going to make her a t-shirt for the next game that says. "I'm more mature than Ted Lilly."

posted by wfrazerjr at 09:41 AM on August 22

Just for the record, Lilly wasn't pulled after giving up seven runs in the third inning. He was pulled after giving up five runs. He left with two runners on, both of whom were allowed to score by the bullpen. May sound nitpicky, but in that situation -- 8-5, two men on -- I can totally understand Lilly's wanting to stick around and try to get what should have been an easy win. I'm in NO way defending Lilly's behavior, but his argument is not that ridiculous. If he had actually already given up the seven runs, I might feel differently.

posted by BullpenPro at 10:27 AM on August 22

1) Ted Lilly does not belong in the major leagues. 2) John Gibbons is going to be fired at the end of the season. I respectfully disagree. I think Lilly is a great/terrible major league pitcher. When he's on, he's untouchable. When he's off, he gets lit up like an Xmas tree. I'd rather have a pitcher like that than a monotone 4.75ERA guy. With someone like Lilly, there is the promise of everything finally clicking. Gibbons isn't going anywhere. He's gotten the management support before (Hillenbrand) and he's doing things that Riccardi wants. Plus, he's a manager that doesn't always follow "the book", especially when "the book" is wrong. He has no problem bringing his closer in before the 9th inning and even tries (what seem like) crazy things (like Glaus at SS). I can totally understand Lilly's wanting to stick around and try to get what should have been an easy win. Walk Single Double Home Run Home Run Double Out Single There really wasn't any indication he was going to be getting a second (or third) out any time soon. I would have yanked him too. The good thing about this altercation is that both guys seemed to agree that they both said something wrong and that they both contributed to the blow-up/dust-up. I don't think punches were thrown, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a "grab shoulders and wrestle/push" thing.

posted by grum@work at 11:07 AM on August 22

What gets me is that Gibbons said he was going to the clubhouse bathroom. He ain't a very good liar.

posted by cl at 11:10 AM on August 22

With someone like Lilly, there is the promise of everything finally clicking. When? He's 30 years old and has had five substantial years in the majors. In none of them has he been anything better than mediocre. He barely has a 2:1 K/W ratio, has two complete games in the last three seasons and, worst of all, can't be counted on to get you through five innings even after being spotted an 8-0 lead. Where's the cream filling? The Jays should have given Lilly an outright release -- see ya in the funny papers, kid, and good luck growing up on someone else's dime. As for Gibbons, I happen to enjoy watching him manage for his unpredictability. However, I find it difficult to believe many players are going to be too excited about coming to play for a manager who has now had two punch-ups in two months. Would you take a job transfer to a new city if your new boss had a deserved reputation for settling issues by trying to poke you in the schnozz?

posted by wfrazerjr at 11:23 AM on August 22

Worked for Billy Martin....kind of.

posted by mjkredliner at 11:26 AM on August 22

Medically speaking an argument would cause an elevated blood pressure which couldlead to a bloody nose. Right, that's plausable. Look kid, you sucked something awful last night. Hit the showers and come back in 5 days.

posted by timdawg at 11:32 AM on August 22

When? He's 30 years old and has had five substantial years in the majors Every time he pitches against the Red Sox, for one. And it's not like the Red Sox have been offensive lightweights in the past 5 years. He's a lefty with potential. Might as well be a guaranteed contract. Also, he's had two 120 ERA+ seasons in the last 4 years; two seasons where he was 20% better than the average MLB pitcher. Seems like that's better than medocre.

posted by yerfatma at 11:32 AM on August 22

I know that I get bloody noses just sitting in my chair so I really don't think any more than just a shoving match happened. Lilly had done ok for my fantasy league team but I have to tell you I am in a playoff race and a 2.1 inning 27.00 ERA game just doesn't cut it so he has been cut from my team. So long Lilly good luck to whomever you bring drama to next.

posted by skydivemom at 11:44 AM on August 22

I'm going to have to take another stance of I-don't-know-what-the-hell-to-think, similar to what I did during the Hillendbrand saga. Gibbons seems to go nuts every once in a while, but Ted Lilly is a basket case who can toss the occasional 10-strikeout game. I officially have no idea what to expect from this team. Nothing would surprise me. I thus have no expectations for this team this year. I'm just gonna hang out and enjoy watching A.J. Burnett burn his arm out with three-digit fastballs and Troy Glaus burn his knees out with, well, anything involving motion.

posted by DrJohnEvans at 11:45 AM on August 22

Everyone in the dugout ran all nutso-like into the tunnel and it was all because Gibbons was going to the bathroom? The player might be an ass in this situation, but the manager has to be the bigger man. I'd bet most of us have been in a competitive situation where we fell short and we said or did some things out of anger that we regretted. It happens to players. Managers have to shake it off, let the guy cool down, then talk about it. Not wait for them in the tunnel and push them.

posted by SummersEve at 11:56 AM on August 22

People can argue tension or stress all they want. No offense, but that's part of the game. Having said that, first place, last place or pennant race be damned, if the manager says hit the showers you go. Conversely if a manager challenges a player, seriously as he apparently has before, to a fight, during a game or not, then he's out of the clubhouse too. Permenantly. No team with tension on that level is ever going to the Series anyway. Just one man's opinion. Oh and wfrazerjr, congrats to your youngun getting on the tron. Somehow they never show my ugly mug up there. Wonder why? Hmmmm.....

posted by commander cody at 12:00 PM on August 22

I'd take Lilly in Boston if they are going to dump another player. I'm starting to wonder about Gibbons now, truth be told. At first I was willing to believe it was Hillenbrand's fault simply on his track record.

posted by jerseygirl at 12:15 PM on August 22

Lilly, a 30-year-old lefty strikeout pitcher who shows flashes of brilliance, is now on his fourth major-league team. Seems like that's better than mediocre. Except that in one of those seasons, he was a stellar 3-6 for the New York Yankees. They thought so much of him (despite the fact that his ERA was just 3.40 for them) they shipped him out with two other guys for Jeff Weaver. Do you think the Yankees (and subsequently the A's) would have dumped Lilly if he was all that valuable? As for his track record against the Red Sox, that would be valuable if you could afford to carry him to to only pitch against Boston. Why the Red Sox don't tear him a new one I don't know, but the rest of the league certainly seems to do it on a regular basis. If someone else wants to take a chance on him, so be it. He's worn out his welcome in the Rogers Centre.

posted by wfrazerjr at 12:17 PM on August 22

Except that in one of those seasons, he was a stellar 3-6 for the New York Yankees. We're going to use W-L records to debate a pitcher's ability?

posted by yerfatma at 12:39 PM on August 22

Its kind of hard to give Gibbons the benefit of the doubt anymore -- he's done, the sooner the better. Its a perfect opportunity to promote Ernie Whitt, who probably should have had the job in the first place anyway. This might have blown over in a different market, another city might even embrace Gibbons and call him fiery and scrappy. But in a city that is always a little put off that they get virtually ignored by the US dominated sports media, I think they'll collectively resent the embarrassment he's bring down on them by getting them in the headlines for all the wrong reasons for the second time in a month. On a day where the sports media should be all over the Yankees/BoSox 5 game Fenway sweep, a defeat of near historic proportions, they are instead they're having fun at the expense of the otherwise usually ignored Blue Jays. Since we always worry about if and how we're seen through US eyes, this has got to be an offense far worse than losing or being irrelevant. A lot of the fickle fans that the Jays been trying to cajole back into the Dome probably just decided to continue staying away.

posted by hb74147 at 12:49 PM on August 22

PS now this team is a sinking ship...

posted by hb74147 at 12:54 PM on August 22

Ah, the battling Blue Jays of the late 80s would suggest other wise, hb74147 - that team hated each other and Jimy Williams and was still successful and popular. Toronto is a lot of things, but when it comes to sports that aren't hockey, it's a bunch of bandwagoneers. If this team was closer in the race, crap like this wouldn't mean a damn thing. In 1992, David Wells and Cito Gaston got into an argument on the mound very similar to this one. Wells, instead of giving Cito the ball, chucked it over the right field wall. Long story short - Jays beat Braves in six for the Series. And for the record, I don't care what kind of coverage the Jays get in the US (we're not all a bunch of mealy mouthed lookatmes) - and for that matter, ESPN covers them well, has had them in the top 10 all year in Power Rankings and fellates Roy Halladay on a regular basis (as well they should, he's, like, the bestest pitcher evaaarr). Suffice to say that after it's all said and done I think Gibbons is 50/50 for next year - basically he hasn't exactly been great with the pitching staff and has a very quick hook. Well that and he likes to fight his players. But I like him.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:00 PM on August 22

fellates Roy Halladay on a regular basis ... as well they should Sorry to hear about the break-up, but take some time off, reassess, before you do anything rash. Or that might result in one.

posted by yerfatma at 01:10 PM on August 22

Touche.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:11 PM on August 22

Weedy: we're not all a bunch of mealy mouthed lookatmes True, but serious sports fans make up a smaller core that is probably in the minority -- the other 30,000 that used to fill up the rest of the Dome are pretty accurately represented by the golf-clapping, arrive late & leave early, "please don't cheer so loud", attend only because apparently this is fashionable and world class enough, stereotype. Stuff like this seriously damages their fashion appeal.

posted by hb74147 at 01:32 PM on August 22

We're going to use W-L records to debate a pitcher's ability? Yes, you're right. A 3-6 record is completely indicative of a fine pitcher who the Yankees made a huge mistake in letting go. /end snark W-L records can be misleading, I agree. But if you can't pull together better than a .500 record for the 2002 Yankees, a team that finished 103-58 ... isn't that indicative of something?

posted by wfrazerjr at 01:46 PM on August 22

Sorry, I don't mean to belabour the point, hb, but I've been to the Dome a half-dozen or so times this year and those 25,000 that pack it in ARE the hard-cores. The cheering and abuse of the other team is way up and it's not such a passive audience anymore. Frankly, it's become far too fashionable to refer to Jays fans as golf-clapping cell phone yakkers who don't care. It's just not true and it perpetuates a falsehood that doesn't need a lot of encouragement. I swear, we're out own worst enemies when it comes to these generalizations. The Jays have been around for 30 years - it's not a "cause celebre" at all anymore. Plus, it's fun to go to the stadium and hear as many "Jeter sucks cock - gobble, gobble, gobble!" chants as you would in Boston. (You can hear grum from the subway station on that one)

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:49 PM on August 22

W-L records can be misleading, I agree. You mean like a guy who had a WHIP of 1.057 and an ERA of 3.46 in a league with an average ERA of 4.38 who was shipped for Jeff Weaver, who, at the time, was supposed to be a feature of the Yankees rotation for years to come? Before the trade, Weaver was 25 with a season ERA+ of 132. I don't begrudge you your right to dislike Lilly, but this would be akin (though not equal) to me saying Josh Beckett had never done anything.

posted by yerfatma at 01:54 PM on August 22

They thought so much of him (despite the fact that his ERA was just 3.40 for them) they shipped him out with two other guys for Jeff Weaver. Do you think the Yankees (and subsequently the A's) would have dumped Lilly if he was all that valuable? They'd have hung onto him like a barrel of limpets if they'd had the faintest clue how Weaver would turn out. But I'm not bitter!!

posted by lil_brown_bat at 02:01 PM on August 22

Weedy, I'm not sure we actually disagree. I'm not referring to anyone that is going to the games these days, just those that used to and that we hoped would come back and fill up the Dome again since Uncle Ted opened up the pocketbook a bit. One of the reasons I enjoy the Jays far more that the Leafs is that the fans that are around are more real as fans (Sorry, you know what I mean though, the blind popularity). Whenever I visit the Batters Box site, I'm always a kind of proud that we have fans that are every bit as hardcore as any with far far deeper baseball roots (ahem, here too, of course). I guess I'm just referring to Toronto in general and the mood in the media while you are talking about the people who actually go to games. If all the new spending doesn't improve attendance I think I'd rather have a mediocre team with a true but modest fanbase than somehow sell our soul to woo back all of the fickle fans that don't come to the games any more.

posted by hb74147 at 03:02 PM on August 22

I think I'd rather have a mediocre team with a true but modest fanbase than somehow sell our soul to woo back all of the fickle fans that don't come to the games any more. 1. Really? I'm not being snarky -- do you really put the quality of the fan base over the quality of the team? 2. I'm not convinced it's an either/or situation. I would think the Jays, even with modest attendance, generate enough revenue to up their cap a little.

posted by BullpenPro at 03:10 PM on August 22

do you really put the quality of the fan base over the quality of the team? I do now. It's an elitist thing to do, but I've never denied being an elitist prick. I guess that's my positive spin on this weekend: maybe we'll see an empty seat at Fenway sometime in April 2007 (Lord knows all the shit September games are probably sold out already). Pre-2004, there was no real reason to grouse about the fairweather Boston fans because it was better to be in it together than lonely, but it's an assache to listen to people cry Armaggedeon because we're 6.5 games out of first. Talk to the fans in Tampa Bay or KC.

posted by yerfatma at 03:16 PM on August 22

Just one man's opinion. Oh and wfrazerjr, congrats to your youngun getting on the tron. Utter confusion for a solid three seconds.

posted by tron7 at 04:14 PM on August 22

lol...sorry tron7...didn't mean you!

posted by commander cody at 04:17 PM on August 22

I have to throw in my 2 cents on this fair weather fan thing. I have been an obsessive diehard sox fan (not quite Fever Pitch but probably closer than I would admit) for about 25 of the 30 years that I have been alive. I do find it a bit odd that there are now fans wearing pink (and green for that matter) Sox jerseys that couldn't tell you how many balls make a walk. Even going to a game is a different experience now. There are more than a few of that Oriole/Blue Jay sort of "what's that wooden thing he keeps swinging around out there" fan.

posted by kyrilmitch_76 at 04:23 PM on August 22

I can't go to my Tigers games these days since I live on the west coast now, but the fair weather fan thing extends beyond attending the games. I have people out here ask me why I'm not a Dodgers or Angels fan, esp considering I haven't lived in Michigan for some 17 years now, but it never made sense to me. Once you're a fan of a team I figure you stick by them no matter what. That's why I don't care if LA gets a football team beyond the chance the Lions might play here once in awhile.

posted by commander cody at 04:30 PM on August 22

I have to tell you cc your Tigers are a hell of a fun team to watch this year. I get mlb.tv and I love the team chemistry on that team. I throw the Sox on TV and then I throw another game on the computer and lately Mets and Tigers are really the two most fun teams to watch.

posted by kyrilmitch_76 at 04:34 PM on August 22

I know. It sort of helps make up for all of the crap I took for being a fan all the years they sucked. Hope the Lions can do the same some year...or decade...someday before I die! Just once in the Super Bowl! God is that too much to ask?!?

posted by commander cody at 04:37 PM on August 22

Knock on wood, but someday when your Lions and Tigers are winning titles it will mean that much more for all of the suffering. When I was 10, in 1986, the Patriots suffered the worst loss (at the time) in Superbowl history and the Red Sox suffered the most heartbreaking loss (at the time, sorry Yankees fans) in Baseball history. Its worth the wait.

posted by kyrilmitch_76 at 04:47 PM on August 22

You mean like a guy who had a WHIP of 1.057 and an ERA of 3.46 in a league with an average ERA of 4.38 who was shipped for Jeff Weaver, who, at the time, was supposed to be a feature of the Yankees rotation for years to come? I mean exactly that. You can talk all you'd like about WHIP and league average ERA, and most of the time I'll agree with you. I'll also agree that wins and losses can be misleading. In Ted Lilly's case, however, you look at individual games and you see one utterly brilliant performance followed by another mind-blowingly horrid one. There aren't a lot of "Well, gosh, he sure pitched well enough to win there, didn't he?" outings. Terrific stuff, but why don't the numbers add up to a better record? Are you writing it off to bad luck? I would also posit that John-Ford Griffin, as the Yankees first-round pick in 2001, was a larger piece of the deal in the Weaver trade than Lilly.

posted by wfrazerjr at 05:01 PM on August 22

I would also posit that John-Ford Griffin, as the Yankees first-round pick in 2001, was a larger piece of the deal in the Weaver trade than Lilly. Interestingly enough, JFG also ended up joining the Blue Jays.

posted by grum@work at 06:09 PM on August 22

you look at individual games and you see one utterly brilliant performance followed by another mind-blowingly horrid one. There aren't a lot of "Well, gosh, he sure pitched well enough to win there, didn't he?" outings. Terrific stuff, but why don't the numbers add up to a better record? I would say it's coincidence then that usually you would agree about WHIP and league average ERA.

posted by yerfatma at 07:04 PM on August 22

Gibbons reminds me of Moe Green from the movie The Godfather who once said "Sometimes you've got to kick ass to make things run right." Of course, you remember how HE ended up...

posted by judgedread at 09:31 PM on August 22

Today CBS sportwriter Eric Mack said "John Gibbons was given Cinderella to work with and has turn it into one of the evil step-sisters". Nicely put, nicely put indeed.

posted by commander cody at 10:59 PM on August 22

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