Cheers welcome White into Pro Football HOF: The glory of the newest Hall of Famers' achievements was punctuated by a steady stream of tears and a singular chant:
posted by wingnut4life to football at 06:15 AM - 94 comments
Typical John Madden: "At night, when the fans and visitors all leave, then the workers start to leave, then just one person turns out the light, locks the door, and I believe the busts talk to each other. And I can't wait for that conversation. "We'll be there forever and ever talking about whatever. That's what I believe will happen and no one is ever going to talk me out of that." Classic! All that is missing is the telestrator...
posted by wingnut4life at 06:26 AM on August 06
I didn't think there was anything wrong with what Madden said. Did you watch the ceremony wingnut or just read this article. If you did not see it on TV then I can see how one would see portions of his speech as "goofy" (as this article says.) However if you saw the whole speech it was very enjoyable. The qoute you have above came when he was discussing how the HOF immortalizes its members. IMO he gave one of the better speeches from the ceremony.
posted by jojomfd1 at 07:46 AM on August 06
Here is a little bit better of an example of what Madden was saying.
posted by jojomfd1 at 07:59 AM on August 06
I love The NFL, I love John Madden and yes I love you guys. All in all it was a great day and some good guys were inducted and now we should all get drunk and celebrate. "Boom" on the grill or something compatible.
posted by GoBirds at 08:20 AM on August 06
I don't really care for Madden, but his speech gave me goosebumps. Awesome. Jojo: Note goofy is in quotes in the AP story. The writer is using Madden's description of himself. Here's an excerpt from the transcript. This is just awesome, I love it... You have to stay with me a moment on this one. This is a little goofy here. You're going to say, There is old Madden being goofy again. But I started thinking about this after I got voted into the Hall of Fame. The more I think about it, the more I think it's true.
posted by SummersEve at 09:14 AM on August 06
People criticize Madden's booth skills for his manner or style of making simplistic comments, in my opinion, that is what makes him great, true football fans have already formed an opinion before the "color man" speaks anyway, and Madden makes no effort to pretend that the game is rocket science. As a coach, his record, and his teams' reputation (face it, they rode it a long time) speaks for itself. Those teams were nasty, and could beat you any number of ways. I think Madden epitomizes all that is great about football, and this a very deserving induction.
posted by mjkredliner at 09:59 AM on August 06
Every one of the inductions was deserved, and every one of the speeches were, in my opinion, excellent, I did not mean to single out Madden. As a lifelong Cowboys fan, I was glad to see Rayfield get his due, and particulary liked the end of his speech, when he said "After 22 years, God knows I'm not a saint, but He knows I am a Dallas Cowboy!" Also, I was glad to see Warren Moon and Reggie White inducted, no question they deserved it, Harry Carson showed us that his reputation for being a class act is well deserved , and Troy, well, I will refrain so as not to appear like too much of a homer. All very deserving gentlemen, who are a credit to their sport.
posted by mjkredliner at 11:03 AM on August 06
jojomfd1, I never said that what Madden said was wrong. Please do not put words into my mouth.
posted by wingnut4life at 11:26 AM on August 06
Congatulations to all the inducties.Now let's put someone who deserves it just as much as anybody else in the hall.Derrick Thomas,119.5sacks,3safeties,18fumble recoveries,7sacks in one game,10playoff appearances,649tackles,883.5yrds.tackles for a loss.Derrick was only 2 sacks behind Reggie in the 90's.He won the sack crown in 90.He had 50 sacks in 54 games quicker than ANY linebacker.42 forced fumbles.26 multi sack games.Has been name defensive player of the week 8 times.Joe montana was offensive player of the week only 7 times... need i say more cause if i need to i've got plenty.PUT DERRICK IN THE HALL.................
posted by kckurtbusch at 11:51 AM on August 06
After watching the ceremonies, now I know why Norv Turner has never had much success as a head coach. How could anybody get motivated listening to him stutter, stammer, stumble and struggle his way through a pregame speech, a halftime speech, hell, even a postgame party? I was ready to give up on Norv his third or fourth sentence in. Also, perhaps a question more suited for those with more religious knowledge, when Reggie White's son Jeremy said (not an exact quote, just paraphrasing as I remember it): First I'd like to thank God...but I'd like to specifiy which God...the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Was that an exclusionary statement, or am I misunderstanding it?
posted by The_Black_Hand at 12:17 PM on August 06
"I was not really invited to the combine and no coaches came out to give me workouts," Moon said. "It was a foregone conclusion quarterback was not in my future in the NFL, but changing positions was. I was going to play quarterback and I was looking for somebody who would let me do that. "Thank you Canada." That was my favourite part of the ceremony.
posted by grum@work at 12:25 PM on August 06
Very gracious of Warren, I agree, and obviously heartfelt.
posted by mjkredliner at 12:49 PM on August 06
Thanks for the transcript SummersEve, I couldn't find it when I looked. I was wondering the same thing TBH, I think Reggie's wife also refered to the same in her speech. Wingnut I was not trying to put words into your mouth.
posted by jojomfd1 at 01:02 PM on August 06
I would point out that the only thing young Mr. White was excluding, were the "Gods or God" that he did not feel was worthy of thanks for his fathers success. If you care to feel excluded, that is your prerogative. I see nothing wrong with it.
posted by mjkredliner at 01:09 PM on August 06
Great post, wingnut. It was truly a wonderful day, I was lucky enough to see it live. mjkredliner: I do believe the Raiders won 2 SuperBowls under the guidance of Tom Flores is the 80's,(against Philly in 81 and Washington in 83) so I would hardly say they "rode it for a long time." kckurtbusch: I agree wholeheartedly. Derrick Thomas should be in the HOF. Maybe next year. All in all, great day! And the induction of Reggie White was both a happy and sad occasion. I am sure he was watching.
posted by steelergirl at 01:13 PM on August 06
Excellent point, steelergirl, I knew that anyone who pointed out that Hank Jr. had large shoes to fill had their shit together, lol.
posted by mjkredliner at 01:19 PM on August 06
My memories of Reggie White are tainted by his exclusionary and ignorant speeches against non-Christians and homosexuals. But I won't judge him the way he saw fit to judge those people in life. I'm happiest for Warren Moon, but good on everyone who made it this year.
posted by chicobangs at 02:53 PM on August 06
I don't really care for Madden, but his speech gave me goosebumps. Awesome. Yeah, his speech was the best of them all. Especially at the end when he said that this is "The greatest ride of all". I guess all the commentary he's done made him a good public talker.
posted by redsoxrgay at 02:54 PM on August 06
Madden deserved it, way past his time. However, it was his speech that will be remembered forever. I agree that Jeremy's speech was probably offensive. However, that's what Reggie probably would have said. However, I think Rayfield Wright's speech really made in self-explanatory why the 'Boys are still America's Team.
posted by Joe88 at 03:58 PM on August 06
Madden, great coach, but I'm glad that's the reason he was inducted. As for being a color commentator...UGH! He should be charged with a personal foul and 15 yds every time he touches that damned "coach's clicker"! Reggie White was a pretty good ballplayer (well...ok...a bit better then pretty good) and that's saying a lot coming from a fan of his rival Lions. Again I'm glad that his after playing activities were not part of the reason he was inducted. I have nothing good to say about him as a man, so I'll say nothing. Warren Moon. Well what can be said. An excellent examples of a consummate pro, on and off the field. The kind of QB, leader and gentlemen that I hope the Lions will someday have again. Thanking Canada was an esp classy move!
posted by commander cody at 04:58 PM on August 06
I will probably get my fingers smacked. But it is the FOOTBALL Hall of Fame, not the "Gee, he was such a wonderful guy, let's put him in a big brick building so everyone will know that for eternity." Hall of Fame. O.J.-a murder suspect. L.T.-a coke head and tax evader, Jim Brown-an abuser of women,BUT they played FOOTBALL really well. (I'm sure if you dig, you can find unfavorable things about a lot more HOF'ers) No, Reggie White wasn't perfect, but he was a helluva football player, and it is for THAT he is being acknowleged this week here in Canton, Ohio
posted by steelergirl at 07:53 PM on August 06
steelergirl, you're defending a point that isn't being attacked, and no one's persecuting you. Put the gun down. I'll repeat what I said. Congratulations to everyone who made it this year. They were all well deserving of the honor. For various reasons, I may be happier for some than others, but none of the new inductees were unworthy. No sport's Hall of Fame is completely devoid of bad human beings (Ty Cobb & Alan Eagleson, anyone?), and I may be frustrated to see the ESPN coverage of the event focus excessively on Reggie White and how great a person he was while ignoring the dark side & the ignorance of his evangelism, as well as (by implication) downplaying the achievements of the other inductees, but the quality of anyone's character doesn't, and shouldn't, matter on a day like today.
posted by chicobangs at 08:07 PM on August 06
What chico said.
posted by commander cody at 08:20 PM on August 06
Chico, of what hall of fame is Alan Eagleson a member? Just curious is all.
posted by tommytrump at 08:46 PM on August 06
That would be hockey, tommy, or at least he used to be. Not sure if he was kicked out or not?
posted by commander cody at 08:52 PM on August 06
Cody, Warren Moon a gentleman and a consummate pro huh? I guess we'll just ignore that assault charge in '95 when he got into it with his wife eh?
posted by tommytrump at 08:53 PM on August 06
Alan Eagleson is not a member of the Hockey Hall of Fame. He was removed as a member due to many criminal acts involving the NHLPA.
posted by tommytrump at 08:55 PM on August 06
Eagleson resigned from the Hall of Fame (who knew you could do that?) right before he was to be kicked out, according to Wikipedia. Interesting story- had never heard it.
posted by tieguy at 08:58 PM on August 06
Okay, fine. Eddie Shore, Bill Wirtz & Harold Ballard. Alright? My point remains.
posted by chicobangs at 08:58 PM on August 06
Cody, Warren Moon a gentleman and a consummate pro huh? I guess we'll just ignore that assault charge in '95 when he got into it with his wife eh? He was never officially charged (I guess technically charges were dropped when it turned out to be nothing more then a loud argument) and you show me a man who never argued with his wife over spending and I'll show you a man that's never been married. So eh, no big deal.
posted by commander cody at 09:04 PM on August 06
Cody, I beg to differ, according to wikpedia, he was charged, but aquitted. It apparently was a big enough deal for his son to call the police, so, eh, big deal. The FACT that his ex-wife has become a spokesperson for spousal abuse victims and their children isn't related to this at all either.
posted by tommytrump at 09:59 PM on August 06
I stand corrected, he was acquitted. Still no big deal then because he wasn't convicted of anything and is therefore, legally, not guilty of anything. Many people are charged with crimes who are not guilty and have the charges thrown out or are acquitted. Happens all the time as a matter of fact. Also the fact that his wife (who begged the prosecutor not to pursue the case) suddenly then claims abuse after 19 years of marriage in order to get more money in the settlement is not very impressive. One false charge does not remove him from the gentleman list for me.
posted by commander cody at 10:38 PM on August 06
Ok, and I guess another H.O.F. football player didn't kill his wife either, according to your logic. Enjoy. Being aquitted of something does not mean innocence, it just means the prosecuter couldn't prove something, that also happens every day. But, if you feel he's a gentleman, god bless you, go with it.
posted by tommytrump at 10:55 PM on August 06
Chico, and Commander Cody, point taken. I don't feel persecuted, but I knew I would generate some comments. I understand your points of view. Maybe Reggie has generated the excessive amount of coverage received because he is no longer with us. I will concede the dead always garner more warm fuzzy feelings that the ones still here. And I don't have a gun, honest! lol
posted by steelergirl at 10:59 PM on August 06
Ok, and I guess another H.O.F. football player didn't kill his wife either, according to your logic. Enjoy. Being aquitted of something does not mean innocence, it just means the prosecuter couldn't prove something, that also happens every day. But, if you feel he's a gentleman, god bless you, go with it. You're right, but it also doesn't mean that he got away with anything either. Being arrested does not always mean someone is guilty. Police are human, as are prosecutors and they make mistakes. That's why people are innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. 18 years ago I was arrested for felony arson back in Michigan. I knew I didn't do it and I hired the best lawyer in my town. After several months of fighting and paying $1000 of dollars for my own investigator my lawyer was able to show, beyond a doubt, that the fire was caused by a faulty switch on the furnace. The charges were dropped (I was acquitted) at the preliminary exam. Still I have no doubt that there are people back in my small hometown who use the same logic as you and think I got away with something because I spent my life savings on a good lawyer. They, like you apparently do with Warren moon, believed I was guilty or why else would have been arrested. In my case the system worked as it was supposed to. The truth is that sometimes innocent people do get arrested and sometimes they even go to jail. It's not always (or even often) that it's a case that the prosecutor simply "couldn't prove it", it's often the case that the prosecutor is just plain wrong. Just because Warren Moon was arrested means nothing as to his guilt or innocence. As far as I'm concerned the system worked for him too and the false charges were dismissed. That is what a presumption of innocence is all about.
posted by commander cody at 11:28 PM on August 06
I will concede the dead always garner more warm fuzzy feelings that the ones still here. LOL! I know, it sometimes make's a person wish they were dead so people would only speak good things about them. Or like when you're a little kid and your parents punish you and you wish you were dead because "then they'd be sorry"!
posted by commander cody at 11:31 PM on August 06
Well, Commander, I will speak my mind now. I think you, as a frequent poster, are eloquent, knowlegeable, and sometimes downright funny. I have gotten alot of laughs from you and I enjoy reading your posts
posted by steelergirl at 01:16 AM on August 07
Well thank you very much steelergirl and I regularly read, enjoy and almost always agree with your posts too. Thanks again.
posted by commander cody at 02:26 AM on August 07
TBH, In the Old testament, in the Bible, God is sometimes referred to as the "God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob". Abraham was also known as Israel. These 3 are known as the patriarchs of Judaism, from which most Jews believe to be direct descendants. This is the same God that Christians believe in. Some believers may want to be specific about the God they serve. I don't think it was an attempt to be exclusionary, just a reference as to which God he believes in. (Muslims also refer to Allah as God, and some satan worshipers refer to satan as god).
posted by Bishop at 06:35 AM on August 07
Thanks for the clarification, Bishop. After your explanation, I'm guessing it's a fairly common reference. Reggie wasn't always the most accepting when it came to beliefs outside of Christianity, so I wasn't quite sure what to make of that comment.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 06:58 AM on August 07
I stand corrected, he was acquitted. Still no big deal then because he wasn't convicted of anything and is therefore, legally, not guilty of anything. Many people are charged with crimes who are not guilty and have the charges thrown out or are acquitted. Happens all the time as a matter of fact. Also the fact that his wife (who begged the prosecutor not to pursue the case) suddenly then claims abuse after 19 years of marriage in order to get more money in the settlement is not very impressive. One false charge does not remove him from the gentleman list for me. He hit her...she had a black eye...her son called the police on him. Don't sugarcoat it. This isn't a "claiming abuse 10 years after the fact" money ploy or "he said/she said" Duke case. There was physical evidence and more importantly it was bad enough that her son called police. She, even though she was ALREADY a spousal abuse spokesman, then refused to press charges against her husband, becoming, in that instant, the very person she was trying to help (and one of the worlds biggest hypocrites ). She's no better than he is, but neither are good people and he certainly isn't a gentleman off the field. He was well know for his skirt chasing in and around Houston, all the while married.
posted by bdaddy at 11:17 AM on August 07
Not to turn this into a religious thing, buuuuut....Abrham is common thread in the three major monothesitic religions. Jeremy White was including Judaism, and Islam (weather or not he meant to is another topic all together) T_B_H, here's a little wikipedia thing about the Abrahamic religions. It's kind of interesting because it shows the big three monotheistic religions are more similar than dissimilar.
posted by HATER 187 at 11:38 AM on August 07
There is but one God, and He is FOOTBALL SEASON!!!
posted by Hugh Janus at 12:14 PM on August 07
He hit her...she had a black eye...her son called the police on him. Don't sugarcoat it. This isn't a "claiming abuse 10 years after the fact" money ploy or "he said/she said" Duke case. There was physical evidence and more importantly it was bad enough that her son called police He was never convicted of anything, so rather then "sugarcoating it" I won't go the other way and give him a record he doesn't have. Instead I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt, which is what everyone deserves. IF she did have a black eye and IF it could be proved that he gave it to her and IF she testified against him then he would have gone to jail. As it was he was acquitted. Also the majority of abusers abuse multiple times and there would have been many other reported incidents. There weren't. Also comparing it to other cases makes no sense , since each case is unique. It doesn't matter if this was or was not a she said/he said like the Duke case. As far as I can see all he did was chase around on his wife some and even that is just rumors, so let's leave this as an agree to disagree, because neither side has any chance of convincing the other otherwise. Besides, as steelergirl said, he was inducted for what he did on the field, not off. If it off the field was taken into account the hall would be damn near empty.
posted by commander cody at 12:58 PM on August 07
As long as you're comfortable with it, cody, that's all that matters. Generally speaking, where there's smoke, there's fire. Here's a question for you, would you want him involved with your sister, daughter, niece? I sure wouldn't.
posted by tommytrump at 01:12 PM on August 07
But, but, but we want to hate on him for his old-time religion, commander cody! Which is another way of saying he committed the sin of playing for the Cowboys. And so damn well, too. It's not fair! So if we can't nail him for his choice of team, and it's not fair to nail him for his taste in gods, well what the hell can we nail him for? Allegations and rumors, that's what! If he wasn't a wife-beater or philanderer, maybe he was a compulsive shoplifter, or hell, maybe he was a shirtlifter. I don't know, but all the hate boils down to his having played really great football for the Cowboys. Which I guess is why he's in the HOF, right? What the hell am I talking about?
posted by Hugh Janus at 01:14 PM on August 07
Generally speaking, where there's smoke, there's fire. As long as you keep going off-topic to fan the flames, I guess you can keep this one going all by yourself. Here's a question for you, would you want him involved with your sister, daughter, niece? All of them? At the same time?
posted by chicobangs at 01:33 PM on August 07
I will have to say that playing for the Cowboys just might be a sin that I couldn't ignore or forgive, but I suspect I wouldn't be alone there. Still it wouldn't be as bad as playing for Da Bears! Nothing on God's green (and sometimes blue) earth could get me to forgive any ballplayers for that!
posted by commander cody at 01:46 PM on August 07
Cody, I must agree with Steelergirl. I enjoy your posts, usually very well thought out, I don't always agree with you but your posts are intelligent enough to always make me think. The humor of course is just an added benefit :) I almost always agree with that part :)
posted by T.C. at 02:09 PM on August 07
Well thank you too T.C. I'm glad some enjoy what I have to say, even if I do tend to be too easily drawn off-topic. I am working on that though. It's not easy but I am working on it. I am, I am, I am,.......really I am.
posted by commander cody at 02:20 PM on August 07
Who knew that Warren's first name was Harold? I'll add that to my list of tiresome football knowledge with which to bore away visitors, along with Norman Esiason.
posted by Mr Bismarck at 02:37 PM on August 07
But, but, but we want to hate on him for his old-time religion, commander cody! Which is another way of saying he committed the sin of playing for the Cowboys. And so damn well, too. It's not fair! So if we can't nail him for his choice of team, and it's not fair to nail him for his taste in gods, well what the hell can we nail him for? Allegations and rumors, that's what! If he wasn't a wife-beater or philanderer, maybe he was a compulsive shoplifter, or hell, maybe he was a shirtlifter. I don't know, but all the hate boils down to his having played really great football for the Cowboys. Cowboys? I thought you guys were talking about Warren Moon.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 03:02 PM on August 07
We were, but since Hugh brought up the cowboys (though I'm not sure why) I couldn't let the chance pass by to take a shot at them (and da bears).
posted by commander cody at 03:18 PM on August 07
Still it wouldn't be as bad as playing for Da Bears! Nothing on God's green (and sometimes blue) earth could get me to forgive any ballplayers for that! Easy there, tiger. I know you're a Lions fan , but how could you possibly hate the Bears more than the 'Boys? C'mon, America's Team? Even the Bears have never been that full of themselves.
posted by willthrill72 at 03:59 PM on August 07
Even the Bears have never been that full of themselves. Super Bowl Shuffle?
posted by BullpenPro at 04:12 PM on August 07
You got me.
posted by willthrill72 at 04:19 PM on August 07
The "Super Bowl Shuffle" was catchy and fun but the retalitory "Patriots Fans Are We" song was lame. (But nowhere near as lame as "Let's Ram It," the song put out by the L.A. Rammers. That song is one of the reasons I switched to the Raiders.)
posted by forrestv at 05:21 PM on August 07
Super Bowl Shuffle? You got me. And only one Super Bowl ring to show for it compared to five. Lest we forget, it was NFL Films who gave Dallas the "America's Team" moniker, not the club itself, and it's been a nickname despised by many a Cowboy fan born pre-1970 ever since. America's Team my ass. They're my team. And my late father's team. Find some other teams bandwagon to hitch your trailer, America.
posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 05:34 PM on August 07
Easy there, tiger. I know you're a Lions fan , but how could you possibly hate the Bears more than the 'Boys? Two words: Mike Ditka! Man I hate that guy! I can't count on all my fingers and toes how much! That's the only reason I hate them just slightly more then the Cowboys. The "America's Team" thingie was almost bad enough to disqualify any member of it from the HOF for bad taste if no other reason. The only saving grace in it is knowing that it was a cheap PR stunt, the players had nothing to do with it and I'm sure at least some of them were (or should have been) embarrassed about it.
posted by commander cody at 05:53 PM on August 07
Two words: Mike Ditka! Man I hate that guy! Let's see if I can give you another reason to hate that pugnacious prick. True story: After Ditka retired as a player and became an assistant under Tom Landry, he decided to open a restaurant in Dallas called The Hungry Hunter. As part of this new venture he needed his accounting books set up and through his contacts found my mom, who was the head bookkeeper for the company that sold the land for Texas Stadium. Ditka agreed to pay Mom $1,000.00 to create the restaurant books, which she completed after about a month of working evenings and weekends, well ahead of schedule...and Ditka stiffed her. That's right, Mike Ditka screwed my mother out of $1,000.00, which was a lot of money for us in the early 70's. The restaurant failed miserably, and I'll never forget what that bastard did to my mom.
posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 06:24 PM on August 07
Amen, commander, I was wondering who died and made the Cowboys "America's Team". Not to me are they "America's Team", but then I am biased. But I got to say I loved the Bears with Ditka, "Sweetness", and Jim McMahon. To all of SpoFi members: If you have never been to the Football Hall of Fame, by all means, go! It is a great experience!
posted by steelergirl at 06:27 PM on August 07
I hate him because during a game against the Lions during a kickoff the Bears almost broke it loose for a score, but the Kicker (Eddie Murray) managed to tackle the runner (forgot his name). On the next kickoff Ditka told some of his players to "break that kickers leg" no matter what. At least that's how the Detroit newspapers reported it and considering it was Ditka, I believe it. Playing hard is one thing, but ordering a hit on another player that could end his career is going too far.
posted by commander cody at 06:33 PM on August 07
Curiously, the Football HoF voters did decide to vote Buck O'Neil in. Who would have thought?
posted by Joey Michaels at 09:30 PM on August 07
Hugh Janus Which is another way of saying he committed the sin of playing for the Cowboys. & All the hate boils down to his having really great football for the Cowboys. The_Black_Hand Cowboys? I thought you guys were talking about Warren Moon. Naw, he got it wrong, not once, but twice. I mean, it's not like he's a Hall of Fame caliber quarterback or anything, right? And this is a thread about this weekends inductees? Maybe you should know something about the warriors before you comment on them. 'Nuff said.
posted by mjkredliner at 09:48 PM on August 07
Sorry Hugh, I believe I misquoted you. I'm sure you can still get the meaning, though.
posted by mjkredliner at 09:55 PM on August 07
I was surprised/interested on how much more coverage and interest the Reggie White induction received over the Warren Moon induction. Given recent history involving Rush Limbaugh's ridiculous comments, and the constant reminder of how few black coaches are in the league, I would have thought that Moon would be properly fetted as the guy who broke down the concept that black dudes couldn't be quarterbacks. Reggie, by the end, was a pretty polarizing figure.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:00 AM on August 08
I daresay that Reggie Whites achievements off the field were as great as those on the field, and, the people in Canton were obviously not polarized. "The glory of the newest Hall of Famers' achievements was punctuated by a steady stream of tears and a singular chant:" "REG-GIE, REG-GIE " Warren Moon said quite plainly in his speech, and was quoted in the article as saying "A lot has been said about me being the first African-American quarteback in the Hall of Fame. It's a subject I am uncomfortable with at times, because I only want to be judged as a quarterback" History will judge him well, I bet.
posted by mjkredliner at 08:51 AM on August 08
Thought we were on about Reggie White, couldn't remember whether he beat his wife. In my confusion, I posted some jokey nonsense and just muddied the waters; mea culpa to anyone who was confused, va fanculo to anyone who might be jumping at this opportunity to drag a bit of guff from some other thread here.
posted by Hugh Janus at 10:03 AM on August 08
And what would you call your comment?
posted by mjkredliner at 10:15 AM on August 08
Hmmm. How about "some jokey nonsense?"
posted by Hugh Janus at 10:46 AM on August 08
I would have thought that Moon would be properly fetted as the guy who broke down the concept that black dudes couldn't be quarterbacks. Couldn't agree more. As good as Reggie was (on the field, off the field is another whole thread) I think the NFL and the media would have been better served to emphasis the fact that Warren Moon broke that racial barrier. Still in today atmosphere it's not really surprising the direction they went in, just sort of sad and wrong.
posted by commander cody at 12:37 PM on August 08
I daresay that Reggie Whites achievements off the field were as great as those on the field, and, the people in Canton were obviously not polarized. Well, to be fair I don't think that anyone with a shred of decency would try to bring the man down during his induction, and I'm not surprised that he had a cheering section - they're his fans. That's who goes to these things. But to suggest that some of the comments made by Reggie in the twilght of his career were less than controversial is a denial (not that I'm accusing you of such). I don't think the idea of the man being a bit polarizing is a stretch.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:22 PM on August 08
the people in Canton were obviously not polarized My father always said, "Son, if you want a perfect cross-section of American society, the Hall of Fame weekend in Canton, Ohio is the place to be."
posted by yerfatma at 01:23 PM on August 08
Point taken you all. When I said his off-field achievements, I was not referring to Reggie's public speeches, I was referring to his work through his Foundation and other charities.
posted by mjkredliner at 01:43 PM on August 08
I think saying he was "polarizing" is being really kind and more then a little bit of an understatement.
posted by commander cody at 01:44 PM on August 08
Marlin Briscoe, Joe Gilliam, and James Harris all come to mind as black quarterbacks who started for teams before Warren Moon turned professional, I might add.
posted by mjkredliner at 01:54 PM on August 08
My father always said, "Son, stop jerking around when Madden uses the coaches' clicker. You're not having a seizure."
posted by Hugh Janus at 01:57 PM on August 08
My father always said, "Son, stop jerking around when Madden uses the coaches' clicker. You're not having a seizure." Every time Madden reaches for the coach's clicker their should be a very large incredibly strong man assigned to grab him, beat him until he's unconscious (not senseless since he's already that), splash water on him, use smelling salts until he wakes back up again and then beat him unconscious again. Over and over and over again. Nothing in televised sports or televised at all (even American Idol) is as irritating as Madden with that god-damn coach's clicker. NOTHING!
posted by commander cody at 02:53 PM on August 08
You know, I even think he knows that. He just can't help himself.
posted by chicobangs at 03:48 PM on August 08
Like a sickness you mean? Maybe we could hold a telethon for him? Might be fun. Remote control addicts could testify live on TV, maybe get Doc Severson out of retirement (he is still alive, isn't he?), have Ed MacMahon co-host, etc. Call it something like "A Telethon for Madden's Kids".
posted by commander cody at 03:55 PM on August 08
posted by commander cody at 03:56 PM on August 08
posted by chicobangs at 04:11 PM on August 08
Whatever you call it, it's maddening.
posted by Hugh Janus at 06:43 PM on August 08
ter-madden-retz syndrome. "Speaking of defense Al,(twitch-twitch)....blahblahblah click-damn-fastfwd-rwd-blah-boom-boom-boom-tenactin...(twitch twitch)..How about that goal line stand".
posted by Bishop at 08:17 PM on August 08
posted by commander cody at 08:30 PM on August 08
It does sort of explain Pat Summerall's drinking though!
posted by commander cody at 10:22 PM on August 08
WeedyMcSmokey I would have thought that Moon would have been properly fetted as the guy who broke down the concept that black dudes coudn't be quarterbacks. Except that it would not have been true, or proper. Marlin Briscoe was the Denver Broncos starting QB in 11 games in 1968. Joe Gilliam was the starting QB the first 6 games of the 1974 Pittsburgh Steeler Super Bowl team. And James Harris led the NFL with an 89.8 passer rating in 1976, and was named MVP of the 1975 Pro Bowl. In addition, Vince Evans was drafted in the 6th round of the 1977 draft by the Chicago Bears. And, of course, Doug Williams led the Washington Redskins to a Super Bowl victory following the 1987 season, when Warren was getting murdered behind an inept Houston O-line. I think Warren would take exception to your claim too. An interesting read, for those who might want to remember.
posted by mjkredliner at 12:37 AM on August 09
All that is true about Moon. He was most definitely not the Jackie Robinson of football, and it's wrong to imply otherwise. But that doesn't mean the black-QB stigma didn't keep him out of the league for six years (How long had Doug Williams been a black quarterback, anyway?). Think of it this way: if Warren Moon was white, and everything else went exactly as it did for him (so, he'd have spent those first six years as a pro in the NFL instead of the CFL, averaging, oh let's pick a low number, 3,000 passing yards per season, and let's say he still never won a Super Bowl), he'd have about 63,000 passing yards (first all-time by a comfortable margin), and he'd be right in the middle of any meaningful greatest-QB-ever discussion. As it is, I remember there being serious debate as to whether he belonged in the Hall at all. So there's some credence to the idea that it fell to Warren Moon to break what was left of the blacks-can't-play-QB barrier down for good.
posted by chicobangs at 12:59 AM on August 09
Doug Williams took the 1978 Tampa Bay Bucaneers to the NFC Championship game in his first or second year, I believe, Chico. And I would remind you that Doug Flutie was not deemed "good enough" for the NFL either, and had some very good years in the CFL. Warren is not the only player who has had to prove himself in the CFL, black or white. But, I agree, his place in the Hall was contended by some, myself, I thought it well deserved, I thought he had the prettiest release, and threw the tightest spiral, (EVERY TIME he threw it) of any QB I ever watched. Barring a couple of defensive collapses by his Oiler team in the playoffs (I'm sure you know what I refer to), he would have had a couple o' shots at a ring as well.
posted by mjkredliner at 01:32 AM on August 09
heh heh, just about to turn in and it hit me what you meant, chico. My guess is he had been a black quarterback for, oh, say, as long as he had played the position? I'd like to know if that reporter is still around!
posted by mjkredliner at 02:03 AM on August 09
And I would remind you that Doug Flutie was not deemed "good enough" for the NFL either, and had some very good years in the CFL. Bad comparison. Flutie was 5-10 (that's generous) and 175 with a questionable throwing arm. That one's easily explainable. Moon was 6-3, over 210 pounds and had a gun. Not so much.
posted by justgary at 02:07 AM on August 09
Warren and Doug Williams were both eligible for the 1978 draft, Doug was taken with the 17th overall pick (out of Grambling State) so, I don't think it can be entirely attributed to racism, I think that teams saw Warren as a project, I don't know for sure. One thing for sure: A lot of teams and scouts were very wrong.
posted by mjkredliner at 02:20 AM on August 09
Hmmm. Interesting stuff, mjk. I knew of Doug Williams, but had remembered him as being more a guy who won a Super Bowl in the replacement player years. The whole first black QB in Canton is significant, but Moon's historical significance to the position was certainly overstated in my neck of the woods.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 07:56 AM on August 09
The (whole) first black QB in Canton is significant I couldn't agree more. As chicobangs pointed out, a very good case can be made that he is perhaps the best ever, if not just the most prolific passer of all-time.
posted by mjkredliner at 09:14 AM on August 09
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