FanDuel - WFBC

April 04, 2006

Bonds gets needled by fan at PetCo Park: A fan tossed a syringe at San Francisco Giants slugger Barry Bonds during the Padres' home opener on Monday. How much of this type of stuff can Bonds expect this season, and what's the worst fan behavior you've ever seen?

posted by wfrazerjr to baseball at 10:14 AM - 136 comments

That's nothing Giants Stadium 1995. Jets lose 42-3 (or some blow out number like that) drunk fans in the upper tier set fire to 10 rows of seats. NOW that is fans behaving badly. lol

posted by Robb Dubbs at 10:48 AM on April 04

And so it begins... yet another stain on the American public. Let the meatheads unite, as immaturity abounds... Worst fan behavior of all time: the moron who set off the Pistons / Pacers brawl by tossing the beer at Ron Artest.

posted by MW12 at 10:50 AM on April 04

How about the losers that ran onto the field and attacked the KC Royals first base coach at Comiskey Park a few years ago...

posted by ChiSox1977 at 10:57 AM on April 04

I would never do it but I am glad someone did. There is a minimum of outrage by the sports media complex over Bonds and his obvious cheating. He approaches Ruth's record and many who believe in baseball and its history are offended. I expect (but do not condone) more antics as the more expressive fans come out of the woodwork. America is tiring of cheating and associated cover-ups, real or imagined and in this case they are seeing Selig and the press treat this with kidd gloves = coverup.

posted by mikemora at 11:16 AM on April 04

In these days of security and pat-downs, I'm suprised the fan got it in. I don't know if it's more of a shame that this happened, or that I feel Barry Bonds deserves what he gets. The fan's an idiot who cares enough about a cad of a player to even bother heckling him.

posted by LostInDaJungle at 11:17 AM on April 04

That attack on the Royals coach was insane! And don't forget about the battery tossing incidents with John Rocker.

posted by fenriq at 11:17 AM on April 04

Bonds and his obvious cheating And your proof is?

posted by fenriq at 11:19 AM on April 04

I think people are getting way to worked up about Bonds -- tossing syringes is tacky and over-the-top. Let it go. Enjoy the game or stay at home.

posted by bperk at 11:21 AM on April 04

Just wondering...does that "middle age spread" count for anything? What i mean is can the weight Barry has added since joining the SFGs be attributed to working out, that middle age spread and a slowing metabolism several experience when they get older? I know that when I was younger, my metabolism was high and I could not retain weight to save my life plus I was very active. But now, it's a little different. My face is fuller and my body is thicker. I work out and play a little basketball, but I still weigh in at 225 versus 180 when I was 18 through 23.

posted by bkdet at 11:34 AM on April 04

Worst fan night ever was Disco Sucks Night at Comisky between games of a double header. Barry is going to get fans doing anything and everything to him. He might as well get use to it.

posted by dbt302 at 11:42 AM on April 04

Many people are like "where's the proof Bonds used the junk?" or "he's innocent until proven guilty" seriously nobody is going to come over with a video or pictures of Bonds or any other player and say there it is. When the about town is somethings going down its probable that there's something to it. Does Bonds look suspect? Of course he does. I think a lot of people have liked Bonds for so long they don't want there hero tarnished so they defend him. Others say they hate him but he didn't do it, yeah you like him. I also admit the syringe is bit out of control, booing that's great, signs with a syringe Ok but a fan shouldn't throw things.

posted by T$PORT4lawschool at 11:52 AM on April 04

I truly feel sorry for the fans such as "bkdet" that do not believe or make excuses for Bonds turning into Incredible Hulk before our very eyes. I think the syringe was uncalled for but I still laughed. Bonds breaking the homerun record will happen, whether there is an asterik or not. But I do believe that there will be the question in everyones minds that he did cheat. He will never get the respect of breaking such a huge record.

posted by sgtcookzane at 11:56 AM on April 04

It's to bad that the syringe didn't get stuck in Bonds's ass. He better get used to the fans heckling him. The worst is yet to come.

posted by The Toz at 11:57 AM on April 04

Bonds and his obvious cheating And your proof is? Because the media says so, and everyone knows that they are NEVER wrong.

posted by graymatters at 12:05 PM on April 04

Ah, the whole Barry Bonds as Satan deal is played out. You people calling for blood are being myopic: Barry Bonds is not the beginning and end of steriods, or cheating in baseball - He's just the mascot. And he's not going to get caught red-handed, he likely tests himself with far more vigor. And MLB isn't even testing for HGH. So give the Barry Bonds must be brought to justice crap to rest. There is no justice here.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 12:05 PM on April 04

Poor Bonds. All he ever wanted was a group hug with McGwire and Sosa circa 1998. Worst fan behavior? This isn't really bad, but it was hilarious. The Vet, 2003, one guy got the entire stadium to boo the Rockies' bat boy. He had snubbed a kid, faking a ball toss over the dugout. The next time he came out, a guy booed him, then a few guys, then the entire section, etc, until the whole stadium was in on it. The boos rained down in anticipation when bats were left at the plate. After a few innings, he came out and tossed a few balls into the stands, got a big ovation, and was cheered for the rest of the game.

posted by cl at 12:15 PM on April 04

fans are losers and our society is a joke. We now rival the europeans in classless behavior at sporting events.

posted by Big Dookie at 12:17 PM on April 04

My favorite fan misbehavior story is this one (I confess to not remembering all the details exactly so the following is copied from here): September 18, 1993: The Yankees defeat the Red Sox, 4-3, because of a fan who runs out on the field. With NY trailing, 3-1, with two outs and a man on 1st in the 9th inning, Mike Stanley hits a fly ball to left that apparently ends the game. Umpire Tim Welke, however, had called time when the fan bolted onto the field, giving Stanley a second chance. He singled on the next pitch. That was followed by a hit by Wade Boggs, a walk to Dion James, and a single by Don Mattingly which drove home the tying and winning runs. The Bonds story is, of course, appalling. I don't believe at all, though, that stories like this are "stains on the American public" or representative in any way of American sports fans, baseball fans or even Padres fans. There were over 43,767 people at the ballpark yesterday, and 43,766 of them did nothing particularly newsworthy (that I'm aware of). Good percentage. It is also worth noting that in the case of this ONE fan, the needle had been removed from the syringe -- this was not a weapon, not an intent to injure, just a message. Appropriate? No. Fans shouldn't be throwing anything on the field. But it's doesn't quite fall under abominable behavior either.

posted by BullpenPro at 12:24 PM on April 04

He approaches Ruth's record and many who believe in baseball and its history are offended.... ....that you were unaware that Hank Aaron now holds the record?

posted by smithers at 12:26 PM on April 04

There were over 43,767 people at the ballpark yesterday, and 43,766 of them did nothing particularly newsworthy (that I'm aware of). The guy in Section 232, Row 17, Seat B didn't flush the toilet on his way out of the can. Pig. I'm glad it was a little harmless humor from some San Diego fan rather than a bullet or someone jumping onto the field to attack Bonds. I'm afraid we're not far from that, and despite how much I might detest Bonds, he doesn't deserve that. Heck, he doesn't even deserve most of the crap that gets dumped on him.

posted by wfrazerjr at 12:42 PM on April 04

Well, all day long at SportsFilter I hear how great Barry is at this or how bad Barry did that! Barry, Barry, Barry! Oh wait I think I've heard this story before. Oh yea... Well, all day long at school I hear how great Marcia is at this or how wonderful Marcia did that! Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!

posted by Folkways at 01:00 PM on April 04

fans are losers and our society is a joke. We now rival the europeans in classless behavior at sporting events. Run for the hills ... it's the collapse of western society centered at PetCo Park. God help us.

posted by gradys_kitchen at 01:06 PM on April 04

Fans are losers and our society is a joke? Isn't this a rather extreme point of view? And correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the members of Sports Filter fans? Or is this some internet-athletic-research site that conducts sterile sports analysis. Big Dookie indeed.

posted by THX-1138 at 01:11 PM on April 04

Wow, what a short article. "I don't judge them," Bonds said. "I have to concentrate on baseball. I leave that up to you guys to make those statements in the paper." Ha! I have to give Barry some credit here. He didn't give them anything new to work with. He didn't get mad either and throw it back at anyone. But yeah, judging from what I have read in all of these Bonds threads, I would say he is going to have to expect something like this at every game this season. Other than the normal filth that spews from an angry fans mouth (some of which we discussed here) I have never seen anything that bad at any of the few games I have attended.

posted by njsk8r20 at 01:15 PM on April 04

fans are losers and our society is a joke. There's really no point in living, now is there? If anyone needs me, I'll be in my bedroom listening to old Cure CDs and crying in the dark.

posted by jerseygirl at 01:16 PM on April 04

If I were a major league pitcher, Barry Bonds would never see another pitch to hit. I would hope that ALL pitchers would do the same. Cheating dopers should have no recognition let alone RECORDS.

posted by Carle G at 01:17 PM on April 04

If I were a major league pitcher, Barry Bonds would never see another pitch to hit. I would hope that ALL pitchers would do the same. Cheating dopers should have no recognition let alone RECORDS. Teams would be banging on Palmeiro's door in an instant. The pitchers have all decided that all cheaters get a free walk to first base. That'll teach 'em!

posted by bperk at 01:22 PM on April 04

If Barry Bonds never saw another pitch to hit, he would set some pretty unbelievable (and unbreakable) records. On preview: bperk, you are much faster and better than I.

posted by BullpenPro at 01:24 PM on April 04

Worst fan behavior ever? The 1969 Soccer War

posted by Bonkers at 01:27 PM on April 04

Or is this some internet-athletic-research site that conducts sterile sports analysis. I'm going to start using this discription. My wife is always asking me what I'm working on and this sounds like important work.

posted by Termite at 01:38 PM on April 04

1. There is a minimum of outrage by the sports media complex over Bonds and his obvious cheating. Really? I've seen more calls for Bonds' fat head, both here on SpoFi and in every paper, TV station and radio outlet everywhere, than I could shake a corked bat at. And T$PORT4lawschool, given your username, the fact that you've decided that evidence is no longer necessary to convict him, even in the court of public opinion, is kind of rich. 2. We now rival the europeans in classless behavior at sporting events. "Now?" That was what put us over the top? 3. fans are losers and our society is a joke. In an existential sense, I couldn't agree more. In fact, I'll be huddling in the fetal position with jerseygirl, gradys_kitchen and everyone else who sees this one act by one idiot as a sign of the apocalypse, mascara running down my face, trying in vain to slit my wrists with a butter knife. I have no doubt that Bonds will be seeing a lot of ugliness this year, and this probably won't be the worst of it. But everyone suddenly shitting a toyota over the downfall of civilization might want to unclench.

posted by chicobangs at 01:46 PM on April 04

"What is that horrible screaching sound coming from jerseygirl's room?" "She said she was going to her room for 17 seconds, 1000 hours, 100 years or until 10:15 Saturday night, or however long she damn well felt like." "Whatever, she's wearing all black again isn't she."

posted by tselson at 01:54 PM on April 04

... and using up all of the black eyeliner and Lady Clarol "Midnight" haircolor at CVS.

posted by jerseygirl at 01:59 PM on April 04

Alright, guys, I'll bring the pitchforks and you bring the flaming torches and syringes and we'll storm the castle and demand the head of Frankenstein...er...Bonds!!

posted by THX-1138 at 02:00 PM on April 04

Guys, I normally only read and lol. However, today I'm hysterically Roflmao.

posted by yzelda4045 at 02:52 PM on April 04

If anyone needs me, I'll be in my bedroom listening to old Cure CDs and crying in the dark. So, you'll be reliving the night of my Senior Prom?

posted by wfrazerjr at 03:06 PM on April 04

Worst fan behavior? The fans of the Detriot Lions for continuing to support them year, after year, after year, after year, after year. Or maybe it's just the most stupid fan behavior. /repeating to myself "they will win a championship, they will win a championship, they will win a championship......

posted by commander cody at 03:15 PM on April 04

If anyone needs me, I'll be in my bedroom listening to old Cure CDs and crying in the dark. Been there, but for me it's Led Zeppelin...on the headphones...loud...feel the pain...........

posted by commander cody at 03:54 PM on April 04

If anyone needs me, I'll be in my bedroom listening to old Cure CDs and crying in the dark. But I do that when I'm happy. All I know is that you don't want to make Barry angry ... you wouldn't like Barry when he's angry. Next time a fan responsible for the decline of civilization antogonizes Bonds a little untastefully, beware as Barry in his balco fueled madness turns a shade of green and ends up wearning nothing but tattered baseball pants thankfully concealing his Barry-parts. His ensuing rampage through San Fran will leave the city in flames. The humanity.

posted by gradys_kitchen at 03:59 PM on April 04

Barry is going to get fans doing anything and everything to him. He might as well get use to it. Let's take the story and replace "Barry Bonds" with, oh I don't know, "Derek Jeter", or "Albert Pujols". And let's replace "syringe" with "small pocket knife" or "unidentified sharp object". Would anyone still think it was something a player would "have to get used to" if the scene was only slightly changed? If anyone needs me, I'll be in my bedroom listening to old Cure CDs and crying in the dark. The "Mixed Up" compilation album is still one of my favourites, and it's been 16 years since I picked it up.

posted by grum@work at 04:01 PM on April 04

The version of "close to you" on mixed up is quite possibly the greatest remix of all time. And needle or no needle, the sight of a syringe is frightening under any circumstances, and personally I think it's a much bigger deal than people are making it out to be. In fact, were a syringe thrown at Jeter, an investigation would be underway by now.

posted by MW12 at 04:10 PM on April 04

See if i lived near an MLB team (that was good unlike Toronto) i would go to a Giants game just to heckle bonds. I'm a huge heckler, im that one guy that goes too far i must say. I hate bonds and my copy of game of shadows is on its way so i can hate him even more. I hope he dies from roids i really do.

posted by buffalo will never win at 04:20 PM on April 04

I'm a huge heckler, im that one guy that goes too far i must say. I hate bonds and my copy of game of shadows is on its way so i can hate him even more. I hope he dies from roids i really do. You could stand to listen to some Cure in a dark room and have a cry, yourself.

posted by jerseygirl at 04:24 PM on April 04

Let's take the story and replace "Barry Bonds" with, oh I don't know, "Derek Jeter", or "Albert Pujols". And let's replace "syringe" with "small pocket knife" or "unidentified sharp object". If they try something at the All Star game it won't happen. Security was so tight at Comerica that I saw someone have their nail clippers taken away. Now if I were going to try to attack someone, I'd be much more likely to buy a souvineer bat and do it than try nail clippering them to death. We now rival the europeans in classless behavior at sporting events. Until someone throws shit at Barry Bonds I think that the USA will stay below Europe.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 04:28 PM on April 04

Until someone throws shit at Barry Bonds I think that the USA will stay below Europe. Hmm... I have tickets to this weekend's games at PacBell... USA, USA, USA!!

posted by JohnSFO at 04:58 PM on April 04

To Chicobangs, you printed And T$PORT4lawschool, given your username, the fact that you've decided that evidence is no longer necessary to convict him, even in the court of public opinion, is kind of rich. You took what I said out of context and created a made up in your mind innuendo. I never said that in the frame you manufactured, if one plans to get rich they need understand what they are stating. Respectfully t$port4lawschool

posted by T$PORT4lawschool at 05:21 PM on April 04

What are you saying T$? What is the context for this statement: When the about town is somethings going down its probable that there's something to it. This is antithetical to what law school should be teaching you. You should be learning how things aren't always what they seem and that's why our courts have a high burden of proof. Aren't they teaching you that?

posted by bperk at 05:27 PM on April 04

That was then this is now go giants

posted by fingers at 05:33 PM on April 04

Worst fan behaviour? Throwing a syringe is nothing. I quote from The Guardian: "But really, when it comes to the strangest object ever thrown from the terraces, there is, as dozens of you have pointed out, only one winner: the scooter that Internazionale supporters stole from an Atalanta fan outside the San Siro in May 2001, then smuggled into the stadium (past rigorous security checks, clearly), set on fire and tossed from the second tier onto a thankfully empty section of the lower stand. OK, so the scooter didn't actually make it on to the pitch, but that was the intention."

posted by owlhouse at 05:37 PM on April 04

God bless Barry Bond. Bond saved baseball. What ever is in the dark will come to the light. Get over it. a waste of energy.

posted by nate at 05:53 PM on April 04

I was going to bring up the decapitated pig's head that Barcelona fans threw at Raul after he signed for Real Madrid, but wow, owlhouse's flaming Italian scooter definitely tops that.

posted by afx237vi at 05:53 PM on April 04

God bless Barry Bonds. Bonds saved baseball. What ever is in the dark will come to the light. Get over it. a waste of energy.

posted by nate at 05:56 PM on April 04

Bonds on Bonds reality show airs tonight. He is no stranger to the small screen. This should be good. It will fill in the missing time slot between Being Bobby Brown and Flvor Flav.

posted by rxreed at 05:58 PM on April 04

owlhouse's flaming Italian scooter I believe, when I was in college, that one of the local bands called themselves just that very thing.

posted by BullpenPro at 06:08 PM on April 04

"The Greatest Show on the Planet." Ice Capades!? YES!

posted by JohnSFO at 06:11 PM on April 04

T$port4lawschool: "Where there's hearsay, there's probable truth." bperk: "Law school should be teaching you to seek more than circumstantial evidence before drawing any conclusions." Key West Jeff: "Bperk, you dope. You have got to be BLIND not to see all this circumstantial evidence. Everywhere. Convicted, easily, because I don't have time to collect actual facts -- I'm too busy plotting the most devious, undoubtedly moronic stunt ever witnessed on national television." Can I have 10,000 marbles, please?

posted by BullpenPro at 06:17 PM on April 04

This is antithetical to what law school should be teaching you. You should be learning how things aren't always what they seem and that's why our courts have a high burden of proof. Aren't they teaching you that? bperk, first of all, whatever you think law school should be teaching is pretty irrelevant to what is being taught. second, it's not what you're espousing. third, just because the guy went/goes to law school doesn't make him the sports genius or even competent spokesperson. he's unintelligible, what i think i can make of it i don't agree with, but resorting to personal attacks here makes you look just as simple as he does. think about it.

posted by ninjavshippo at 06:19 PM on April 04

Bonds and his obvious cheating And your proof is? you need proof? i suppose hes like that because hes been eating alot of pork and beans.to say hes never been on riods is an insult. NO TALENT+STERIODS=BROKEN RECORDS but why is everyone flaming bonds theres mark,and 85% of baseball i remember they cut to national news when mark was breaking the record and he admitted he was on steriods. what a fuckin joke

posted by p0p3y3 at 06:20 PM on April 04

Can I have 10,000 marbles, please? Can't help ya there Bullpen, I lost all of mine years ago...or my ex got 'em in the divorce...I can't remember. Either way I'm fresh out, sorry

posted by commander cody at 06:27 PM on April 04

I say * by the records it's that simple. see ya!

posted by scottyog at 06:29 PM on April 04

pop3y3, oh yes, you're sooooo right. Bonds has no talent and its only the massive doses of steroids that give him such patience and that great hand/eye coordination. Steroids don't do a damned thing to help you hit a baseball. They help you hit a ball further yes, but you've gotta hit it first. Yes, proof. Without it, you're just another asshole smearing your crap on the wall and calling it art.

posted by fenriq at 06:37 PM on April 04

Fenriq, Last night I responded to your comment about "expecting too much from an astros fan" and hoped you would respond back. I hope you got my point about Bonds. Let me reiterate, Bonds is again a vastly talented ballplayer, surely enough to probably at least approach and perhaps break the homerun record. Make no mistake about it, HE CHEATED...so has many others. If he was liked across the board, this would not seem quite the big deal it is, but because he is a no talent ass clown when it comes to fans, it is a huge deal. I lived in the SF Bay Area for 16 years and went to Giants/Astros games before he went to the Giants as well as during, and although the fans wanted him on the team, he was not and is still not liked. He is vastly overrated...overall, but still tremendous talent. Also like I said before regarding your Astros fan comment, unless you are a White Sox fan, your second rate team watched the World Series from OUTSIDE the chalk lines...maybe the Astros will do the same this year, I hope not! Until they do, they are the reigning N.L. Champs..Regardless, I hope your team brings you as many thrills as the Astros did for me. Good Luck

posted by astrorocket at 06:45 PM on April 04

To everyone on the entire steriods issue...to all the "roid users" I have to word for you (actually names)... those two are "Lyle Alzado"

posted by astrorocket at 06:51 PM on April 04

a lot of ball players have good hand eye cordination and still hit fly ball out to the outfield and not home runs and are considered to be not to talented. so Just to say Bonds is talented because he hits so many homers and not fly ball outs HMMMMMMM Steroids.

posted by twgibsr at 07:05 PM on April 04

I want to throw the game bat he gave me back in 1989 at him, or ask if he'd like to buy it for his shrine to himself.I'll never attend another game untill the roid factor is cleared.And it hurt's me deeply what continues to be swept under the rug .Minor league games start in 2 weeks.....

posted by irishmic2004@sbcglobal.net at 07:13 PM on April 04

Admit it; we're all going to ride our fiery Vespas to the sports bar and watch that Giants/Cards game to see the "hilarious" hijinks that key west jeff has in store for us. Let the mirth-making ensue.

posted by THX-1138 at 07:15 PM on April 04

Thank God, I didn't think that we got the "Great Barry Bonds Steroids Debate" out of our systems in the previous fifty or so "Great Barry Bonds Steroids Debates." Please excuse me while I finish eating this pigs head so I can shit and throw it at my computer screen and then set my hair on fire while I punch myself in the face as I storm into jerseygirls bathroom so I can beat everyone up at first base because they're listening to The Cure.

posted by wingnut4life at 07:25 PM on April 04

I agree with you wingnut, especially since we see the same thing over and over again in these Bonds threads. We might as well make a section like the Locker Room for all things Bonds.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 07:32 PM on April 04

what steriods dont help your reflexing? thats like saying they didnt help donavon bailey run faster lol

posted by p0p3y3 at 07:36 PM on April 04

I hope Pujols hits 90 or 100 Dingers this year and everyone can just sit back a laugh at "The Ass Clown." Do you actually stop to think before you type things, or are you suffering from a case of textualized verbal diarrhea?

posted by grum@work at 07:40 PM on April 04

p0p3y3, I'm pretty sure you're thinking of Ben Johnson. Donovan Bailey never tested anything less than clean, and never even had any accusations of wrongdoing thrown at him before 7:36 PM CST on April 4, 2006. Which when you posted. (laugh out loud) I know, we Canadians all look alike, but try to get our athletes straight.

posted by chicobangs at 07:41 PM on April 04

et my hair on fire while I punch myself in the face as I storm into jerseygirls bathroom so I can beat everyone up at first base because they're listening to The Cure. Who listens to the Cure in a darkened bathroom? That's ridiculous!

posted by jerseygirl at 07:44 PM on April 04

Oh, and Lyle Alzado may have taken a ton of steroids, but despite what he believed, they didn't kill him. Brain cancer, which has nothing whatsoever to do with steroid use, did. So leave him out of this discussion too, please. I can't believe I'm defending Lyle fucking Alzado to you people.

posted by chicobangs at 07:45 PM on April 04

astrorocket: Frankly, Barry Bonds is not overrated. And face it, the Astros arent going anywhere this year. But at least you can remember last year , right?

posted by STUNNER at 07:50 PM on April 04

"Where there's hearsay, there's probable truth."

posted by yerfatma at 07:52 PM on April 04

Oh, and Lyle Alzado may have taken a ton of steroids, but despite what he believed, they didn't kill him. Brain cancer, which has nothing whatsoever to do with steroid use, did. So leave him out of this discussion too, please. I thought he'd died of embarrassment from his acting career?

posted by commander cody at 07:57 PM on April 04

"Make no mistake about it, HE CHEATED...so has many others." Again, you have no proof, just your opinion which is not fact. So you're continuing to blow smoke and call it fact. And, I did respond to your last post. You might want to check the right thread, eh?

posted by fenriq at 08:16 PM on April 04

I thought he'd died of embarrassment from his acting career? That's quite possible, though I always thought he was the best part of "Ernest Goes To Camp."

posted by chicobangs at 08:19 PM on April 04

That's quite possible, though I always thought he was the best part of "Ernest Goes To Camp." It was a classic, but I think everyone was acting up to the pace Jim Varney was setting.

posted by commander cody at 09:05 PM on April 04

ben johnson??? never had gold stripped cause he NEVER tested postitive.YOU BETTER LOOK UP THE 92 OLYMPICS YOU MORON THEY TOOK HIS GOLD MEDALS NOT MEDAL,,,, MEDALS BECAUSE YES... GIVE THE MAN A MARBLE HE TOOK STERIODS I DONT BELIEVE IN * THATS BULLSHIT

posted by p0p3y3 at 09:34 PM on April 04

The syringe thing was certainly classless. Throwing beers on players, pelting them with batteries, etc. absolutely pales compared to this one: In 1977, Janet Guthrie became the first woman to race in the Indianapolis 500. On her qualifying day, there was a mob of lunatics that sat behind her pit stall. Every time she showed her face, these assholes held up a big air-brushed cut-out sign of a pair of tits pocked by the other driver's autographs, yelling at the top of their lungs, "Sign the sign, sign the sign." It was pretty shocking and rather funny to witness this wild-assed behavior when I was 11, but it continues to blow my mind that this kind of shit happened. Christ, if it happened now, there would be lunatic women selling pricks-in-a-blanket on the White House lawn.

posted by CRAB at 09:43 PM on April 04

QUESTION: did he at least HIT him in the ASS? and the worst fan behavior in north america...by far....THE RICHARD RIOTS....not only did they call the game. THEY TRASHED DOWNTOWN MONTREAL!

posted by tommytrump at 09:44 PM on April 04

p0peye, you're not making sense.

posted by chicobangs at 10:11 PM on April 04

And Philly fans still gety a bad rep.

posted by GoBirds at 10:15 PM on April 04

Oh yeah, didn't a philly fan try to climb in the penalty box to fight Domi?

posted by njsk8r20 at 10:46 PM on April 04

chicobangs "brain cancer, which has nothing whatsoever to do with steriod use, did" Before you correct me on Alzado's cause of death, you better Yahoo "Lyle Alzado" and read the 3rd one down titled "Memorial to Lyle Alzado. After reading the last line it states that cause of death was brain cancer due to EXCESSIVE STERIOD USE! Fenriq, sorry I missed your response...can you repeat it? Stunner, what team do you support? You may be right, but the Astros will still be a favorite to go back to the big show by a lot of people. Fenriq OK, do you believe in you heart of hearts that he didn't use steriods? You are right, we don't have a smoking gun to prove it, do you or anyone else have proof that he didn't? Don't give me that "innocent until proven guilty" line as he is not in a legal court of law. Proven fact that steriod use increases aggression, did anyone actually see him abuse his former wife or would you believe her just because "she said so". I was in the Navy and knew a guy who was on steriods and saw the difference it made in his appearance and demeanor...I had proof because he admitted it to me when I kicked his ass in front of about 20 people for picking on a small guy he thought he could humiliate....steriods made him huge...but sure didn't help him that day...do you really believe Bonds is clean or do you just want to believe.

posted by astrorocket at 11:02 PM on April 04

astrorocket, are you kidding? You're pointing to one random Yahoo page (not even an actual link) to back something up you heard from somewhere once from an uninformed source? God, people, I know the interweb is a big ole place, but don't believe everything you read, okay? And just because you print something in all caps doesn't make it more right. (For what it's worth, steroids have been proven to actually help treat brain cancer, not cause it. [References: one, two, three.])

posted by chicobangs at 11:18 PM on April 04

I think there is truth in what EVERYONE is saying about Bonds, such as: 1) did he cheat? absolutely, of course. 2) will he admit it? absolutely not. 3) great player? without a doubt 4) no talent ass clown to fans? unmatched 5) his right to be an ass clown? sure is 6) Jeff Kent's drinking buddy? not in this lifetime...sorry I couldn't resist! 7) dogged and badgered by media? constantly and last but not least... 8) Bud Selig knew, approved and enabled Bonds and countless others by his inaction that will lead to not only bogus stats, but is directly/indirectly responsible for the future health problems of all players due to his vanity while this occured on his watch. Fenriq...thanks for the kind words about Bagwell, although he hasn't officially retired. he is pretty much done..a 2 1/2 minute standing ovation shows respect for his loyalty after 15 years with one team. Hey how about trading him back to Boston, as a DH so he could play for the team he grew up supporting...is Larry Anderson still around?

posted by astrorocket at 11:44 PM on April 04

Just because I must have missed it in all the hyperbole... It was a kids toy. It was not a real syringe. Bonds tossed it back at the stands after he looked at it. get ready for the punchline Right in front of some kids! But you know what really tees me off? "Comedian" Rob Schneider got batting tips from Willie Mays. Schneider was with the Giants in spring training for some silly ass Benchwarmers promo. Sorry, everyone. Time-out is over. Please get back to arguing how many giants dance on the tip of a needle.

posted by ?! at 12:45 AM on April 05

astrorocket, whether or not Bonds used steroids is not the point. The point is that the man has been unjustifiably vilified because he's not friendly to the media or many fans. No, its not a court of law, its the highly suggestible court of public opinion where the burden of proof is laid squarely on the alleged perp rather than on the ones making the claims. That's my problem with this witch hunt. And sorry but anecdotal evidence of 'roid rage isn't applicable here (but good on you for standing up to an asshole who was bullying a smaller guy).

posted by fenriq at 01:16 AM on April 05

Another post sidtracked by the gravitational pull of Barry Bonds. Yee Haw. Deal with the whole question of the thread (And hopefully the newer parts. He can expect this kind of thin wherever people with Markers can meet up with people with large pieces of paper. I was once party to a group of guys that decided to heckle a Pee Wee Football game that was going on at the half of our college game.

posted by ormistoncoyote at 05:20 AM on April 05

So what round did he go in your fantasy-league draft? Fifth round in mine, which is about where I had him pegged.

posted by ajaffe at 08:21 AM on April 05

ben johnson??? never had gold stripped cause he NEVER tested postitive.YOU BETTER LOOK UP THE 92 OLYMPICS YOU MORON THEY TOOK HIS GOLD MEDALS NOT MEDAL,,,, MEDALS BECAUSE YES... GIVE THE MAN A MARBLE HE TOOK STERIODS I DONT BELIEVE IN * THATS BULLSHIT Dear less-than-intelligent person: Ben Johnson competed in the 1988 Olympics in Seoul, South Korea; Ben Johnson tested positive for an anabolic steroid and had his medal taken from him; Please don't ever post here again. Shit, even the real Popeye made more sense than you, and he had a speech impediment!

posted by The_Black_Hand at 10:34 AM on April 05

Bonds has no respect for any of us, and has even told us that over and over again. Now we should be concerned about him? Who cares!!!

posted by INOALOSER at 10:47 AM on April 05

I am glad that ?! finally pointed it out, it was not a usable, needle-weilding syrienge, but a prop, it was not "thrown at" Barry, but was tossed in front if the photographers pit, it was note meant as an assault on BB, but, I believ e, more as a statement. I was glad to hear that security confiscated about a dozen other of the objects. Just as an aside, and perhaps others have feelings about this, MLB has increased security around BB, should they do so? Or should it be the Giants' responsibility, or even BB's himself? Also, the Reverend Jesse Jackson seems to have gotten involved in this and is leading the cries about this having been a physical assault on par with someone having taken a shot at BB.... BTW, Bonds on Bonds last night was interesting, is he playing the sympathy card or is he really ready to contemplate the hereafter?

posted by elovrich at 11:28 AM on April 05

Just as an aside, and perhaps others have feelings about this, MLB has increased security around BB, should they do so? Or should it be the Giants' responsibility, or even BB's himself? Let's examine this from the media's point of view: Option A: The league provides extra protection. Media response: Typical MLB! Protecting only the superstar players and ignoring the steroid problem. Option B: The team provides extra protection. Media response: Typical Giants! Making extra concessions for Bonds over the rest of his teammates and ignoring the steroid problem. Option C: Bonds provides his own protection. Media response: Typical Bonds! He's so sheltered from the rest of the world that he needs an extra-large entourage to keep us away from asking more questions about the steroid problem.

posted by grum@work at 12:17 PM on April 05

So elovrich, you're saying that it's okay to throw stuff on the field of play as long as it's not sharp or ticking? That this doesn't set a dangerous precedent?

posted by chicobangs at 12:20 PM on April 05

Just as an aside, and perhaps others have feelings about this, MLB has increased security around BB, should they do so? This whole mess is a result of their incompetence, they should pay for it! And as for the rest, this is just the first game. Someone threw it out and no one knows if they intended to hit him with it or not. It should definitely be taken seriously. BTW, Bonds on Bonds last night was interesting, is he playing the sympathy card or is he really ready to contemplate the hereafter? I think there is a very good chance that Bonds is a whole and complete person and not the one-sided caricature that we see. He could well well do some contemplative thinking and I wouldn't find that the least bit surprising.

posted by bperk at 12:20 PM on April 05

On the issue of security, I say all three. Bonds is responsible for his behavior (which, frankly, say what you will about the guy, his restraint in the face of constant abuse from media and fans is unparalleled). This includes conducting himself in a way that keeps him out of harm's way. But he can't bring a bodyguard into left field with him. As a member of the Giants, the club obviously has a responsibility to see to it that their employees are able to conduct their business in a secure environment. But if something happens to Bonds, it's MLB that ultimately pays the price, and they have to take some action. Pretending that Bonds doesn't require special security attention would be naive, and would put the league and the team both in a position of liability. More on Bonds' tolerance: Randy Johnson, Frank Francisco, Kenny Rogers, Byung Yung Kim, Phil Nevin, Milton Bradley and more than a score of other players have reacted disgracefully in the face of a tiny, tiny fraction of what Bonds deals with every day. I don't recall a single story of Bonds flipping anybody off publicly, charging the mound, or even cocking to throw a punch at anybody in a public forum. I could have missed them, but they're rare if there's anything at all. So much for 'roid rage -- this guy is a rock, at the ballpark anyway. So, when you say "Bonds has no respect for any of us," I guess I say it's as easy to find a ballplayer who has shown less respect as the other. Phil Nevin is moody, hotheaded, prone to public displays of disregard for the fans. But nobody has called him before a grand jury. Nobody has conducted a two year investigation on every detail in his life. You don't find him guilty of anything because nobody has made the suggestion. Why are players like Nevin -- or any of the others listed above, or any of a list of other pretty good candidates -- getting a pass, while Bonds gets bombarded with puerile stunts and six SportsFilter threads a day dedicated to abusing him? And most of all, where is Raffy amongst all this anger? You've got that guy holding a smoking gun, but eh, let's go get Bonds? Perspective: If some of the people on this site really hate Bonds as much as they say, Bonds is not your problem, dude. A very urgent need of emotional therapy is your problem. If you are plotting and putting in all the effort necessary to conduct a six-month long stunt, the sole purpose of which is humiliating Barry Bonds -- or even if you think it's a good idea to do so -- you may need to stop worrying about what Bonds is doing and fix a bigger problem right in front of you. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

posted by BullpenPro at 12:39 PM on April 05

BullpenPro is right on. One of the upsides to Barry having a Jackie Robinson complex is that he's trying awful hard to act like him in public. 162 games of this is sorely going to test that, but roid rage is not an issue right now. If he was on the juice at all, keeping this temper alone would be a reason to stop. Think of it this way. Imagine, oh, Albert Belle in exactly this position (which, all other things being equal, was entirely conceivable ten years ago). They'd be playing his games in steel cages, in empty stadiums, on closed-circuit TV by now.

posted by chicobangs at 12:47 PM on April 05

They'd be playing his games in steel cages, in empty stadiums, on closed-circuit TV by now. Didn't they used to play basketball behind bars in the arenas? Seems to me that's where I've always heard the term Cagers came from in BB.

posted by commander cody at 01:03 PM on April 05

Bullpenpro, good points on Bonds' patience and tolerance. Can you imagine the shitstorm if he did react? On the security thing, I do think Jesse Jackson should go back to trying to defend jerks who start school riots and keep his ego out of this issue altogether. And MLB should be providing extra security for Bonds, they singled him out with this investigation (regardless of Selig's assurances that the investigation goes beyond Bonds) and should be responsible for keeping him safe. In fact, isn't baseball responsible for protecting all the players and staff? Oh, and this is probably a bad idea but I'd like to see some of these tough guys who throw crap from the crowd anonymously get confronted one on one by Bonds and see how tough they are then.

posted by fenriq at 01:15 PM on April 05

Nice comments Bullpen Pro. I think that hating Bonds is trendy now and also, as you mention, an indication of a much larger problem. It's like that guy on Sesame Street who complains about there being a fly in his soup - is he really that upset about the fly or does he just not like Grover being his waiter?

posted by JohnSFO at 01:56 PM on April 05

Didn't they used to play basketball behind bars in the arenas? Chicken wire.

posted by yerfatma at 02:00 PM on April 05

Didn't they used to play basketball behind bars in the arenas? Chicken wire. Hmmm...maybe justgary can put some up in here?

posted by commander cody at 03:08 PM on April 05

Doesn't MLB already provide extra protection for Bonds? They made an exception for him to wear extra armor on his arm so he can lean over the plate.

posted by INOALOSER at 03:26 PM on April 05

Hmmm...maybe justgary can put some up in here? Pointless. We could still throw quarters.

posted by yerfatma at 04:17 PM on April 05

or batteries.

posted by jerseygirl at 04:23 PM on April 05

or snowballs. Wait, I don't live in Cleveland.

posted by tselson at 04:50 PM on April 05

Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. HEY!

posted by BullpenPro at 04:52 PM on April 05

or feces.....oh wait...we're not in Europe....

posted by commander cody at 05:30 PM on April 05

If I were europeeing I think i'd be tired of the fece's comments

posted by Folkways at 06:58 PM on April 05

lol

posted by commander cody at 09:09 PM on April 05

No, I do not condone the throwing of ANY object onto the playing surface at ANY time by ANYONE, and I hope that they catch the one who threw the syrienge and make an example of him/her. The point I was trying to make is that everyone apparently was acting as if this was meant as a physical threat to Bonds, one that could have resulted in grave serious injury to the man. I was simply making the point that it most likely was not. Do I think that there is the possibility that some attention hungry psychopath will put the man in jeopardy before the season is very old? It certainly think it is a possibility and I hope that MLB, the Giants, every club that hosts them and Barry himself do all that they can to minimize the threat. I agree that Bonds has shown great restraint during the last several months. I agree that much of what is going on rests squarely on the shoulders of MLB itself. I agree that Bonds is aruably the greatest hitter of our time, and has an argument for all-time. All of that being said, I also agree that he most likely cheated, that he should be made to pay the consequences for that cheating (yes, even if it is at the expense of making him the "posterchild" or "sacrificial lamb" that MLB uses to hold up and say "see we ARE doing something to clean up the game) and that anything that MLB does should not be held to the same burden of proof as a court of law would require. Joe Jackson and Pete Rose, looking back from 2006, should probably both be in the HoF. What happened to each of them was a travesty when seen from the next century. But, the decisions that were made in each of their cases by the Commisioner at the time were made in the attempt to preserve THE GAME. It is very likely that in 2056 or 2036 that our children and grandchildren will say that Barry Bonds deserves to be in the HoF, that the way that MLB had (will?) treated him was (is?) a complete embarrassment. But, the powers that be in the grand old game do not have the luxury of looking back from 30 or 50 years in the future, they have to make a decision NOW on how to save THE GAME, even if it is at the cost of the legacy of a (perhaps) well-deserving individual. Whether or not it can be proven to the extent that a court of law would find Bonds guilty, is there ANY among us who would argue that steroids is good for THE GAME? Given that fact that steroids can be seen as a greater threat to baseball than organized crime was in 1919, should the Commisioner's office act in a way that is any more lenient or forgiving? The ultimate way that Bonds will be viewed will have to wait for heads to clear, and dust to settle. Perhaps it will be that the SpoFites of 2036 will lead the way for his induction into the HoF, or the removal of an asterisk. My argument is that if we wait for the heads to clear and the dust to settle BEFORE there is any decision made by the Office of the Commissioner of Major league Baseball, then perhaps there will be no argument to clear Bonds' name because Major League Baseball will be as relevant to our descendants as the National Association of Professional Base Ball Players is to us today.

posted by elovrich at 09:41 PM on April 05

Joe Jackson and Pete Rose, looking back from 2006, should probably both be in the HoF. What happened to each of them was a travesty when seen from the next century. If I had my way, Pete Rose could go in the Hall of Fame after either he dies or I die, whichever comes last. He knew the rules, he broke the rules, he signed an agreement stating that he broke the rules and knew the punishment. There is absolutely no reason to let Pete Rose back into baseball and into the Hall of Fame. Given that fact that steroids can be seen as a greater threat to baseball than organized crime was in 1919, should the Commisioner's office act in a way that is any more lenient or forgiving? In what way is performance enhancing drugs a "threat" to baseball? The integrity of the game survived "greenies" and cocaine abuse in the 1960s and 1980s. Organized crime in 1919 (and later years) is a threat to the game because the integrity of the results of the games were put into question. Using a P.E.D. suggests that the player is attempting perform above and beyond his natural abilities. He is attempting to do better on the field of play, and therefore help his team win. Organized crime and the threat of "fixed" games is the exact opposite. It's players deliberately trying to lose games that they play in. Now which do you think the paying public would be more upset about (in a general way): finding out their players are trying to win by any means possible, or finding out their players are trying to lose by any means possible? or the removal of an asterisk. This is no asterisk. And if people think there is a need for some sort of "notation" in their own record books for baseball, I assume there will be "notations" for every record set during the segregated years, or when there were more than 4 balls in a walk, or the pitching mound was higher, or spitballs were legal, or when they threw from less than 60'6" away, or when ground rule doubles were recorded as home runs, etc.

posted by grum@work at 01:36 AM on April 06

In what way is performance enhancing drugs a "threat" to baseball? The integrity of the game survived "greenies" and cocaine abuse in the 1960s and 1980s.... Using a P.E.D. suggests that the player is attempting perform above and beyond his natural abilities. He is attempting to do better on the field of play If a player takes an action that inflates his performance past that of his "natural ability" (your words) doesn't that threaten the integrity of the game? Whether it is cork in a bat, altering the surface of the baseball or USING SUBSTANCES WHICH HAVE BEEN BANNED BY THE COMMISSIONERS OFFICE. The threat from illegal drugs was faced and responded to by banning them. The same instrument that banned all illegal drugs also banned steroids (see my earlier posts about this). That I feel that Bonds needs to be punished has nothing to do with the fact that it is Barry Bonds, but that he is the highest profile player that there are apparently valid allegations against. I am glad that the investigation has begun, and that it will encompass more than Messr. Bonds. If there is enough evidence gathered to convince Selig that Bonds used, i hope he bans him. I also hope that if there is enough evidence to convince Selig that ANY OTHER player used then that player will be banned also. This includes (insert the name of any likeable player here). If there is evidence found to convince the Commissioner that steroid use was widespread (say more than 8 percent, or 2 players on each 26-man roster) then I hope he contemplates segregating the entire period from consideration for career records. As for your argument about when the rules were different and the record book. It is a specious comparison at best, as the use of steroids over the last 15 years HAS BEEN against the rules of baseball. IN addition to being illegal. And for those that are about to argue that Ruth drank during Prohibition. If I recall correctly, the 18th Amendment addressed the production, transportation, and sale of alcohol, not the consumption of the same so no, Ruth did not break the law by drinking during that period.

posted by elovrich at 08:36 AM on April 06

is there ANY among us who would argue that steroids is good for THE GAME? I'm pretty sure it's been argued several times over the last couple weeks that steroids has in fact successfully contributed to breathing new life into a dying game... drawing more attention, creating excitement... The Sosa/McGuire run for Maris' record had an unbelievably positive effect on the game, and we now know (have reason to believe) they were juiced at the time...

posted by MW12 at 08:53 AM on April 06

Regardless of whether use of PED was against the rules or not, the punishment for breaking that rule was never that one be banned from baseball. If we found out that sometime during the 2003 season, Pujols smoked marijuana, should he be banned from baseball? He broke the same rule. A rule that is not enforced and that has no consequences for breaking it are not really rules at all. And, to only enforce those rules against one individual is discriminatory.

posted by bperk at 09:12 AM on April 06

So, because MLB did not enforce a rule in the past, for whatever misguided reason, then they should be prohibited from enforcing it in the future because to do so would be discriminatory to the first person penalized? I, for one, hope that whatever is the outcome of the Bonds investigation, that this is not the last person to go under the microscope. If it was found tha Pujols, or any other player used any illegal substance, I would hope that steps were taken to a) clean up the game b) help the player, if he admitted there was a problem and sought the help. If Pujols were suspected of smokling marijuana, and if marijuana were a substance the positively affected his ability to play, then yes, I would say to ban him. Or, if it were a substance that either did not improve or was detrimental to his play, then I would say, he had better seek help, (with or without the assitance of his organization or MLB) and if he did not, or conitinually lapsed, then I would say yes, seperate him from the game. As for steroids breathing life into a dying game. I would wager that Cal Ripken's pursuit of the consecutive game streak was just as compelling as the McGwire/Sosa chase. As far as this quest for high scoring, and the love of the long ball. I am regretably in the minority, but I much prefer a well-twirled 1-0 pitchers' duel to a 15-12 slugfest where the outcome is determined by which bullpen is LEAST effective.

posted by elovrich at 11:21 AM on April 06

So, because MLB did not enforce a rule in the past, for whatever misguided reason, then they should be prohibited from enforcing it in the future because to do so would be discriminatory to the first person penalized? Absolutely not, but MLB should not be able to retroactively enforce those rules against select players.

posted by bperk at 11:24 AM on April 06

What is retroactive about enforcing a rule that has been on the books since 1991? All enforcement of rules or laws is done retroactively, that is, the deed is done and then the enforcement begins, to do otherwise is truly to punish someone for something they have yet to do.

posted by elovrich at 11:34 AM on April 06

The threat from illegal drugs was faced and responded to by banning them. "Greenies" have been around since the 1960s, and only THIS YEAR have they been specifically banned by baseball. If you are going to retroactively punish Bonds for using steroids, then they better retroactively punish Willie Mays for his P.E.D. use as well.

posted by grum@work at 12:05 PM on April 06

grum: I would like to direct our attention to the memo from then commissioner Fay Vincent that banned ALL illegal substances in 1991. This memo included any legal prescription drug for which the player did not have a prescription and names steroids specifically. For use in the 1960's, while I think it is a shame that it occured, I do not think that punishing someone for something that was outlawed ex-post-facto is right. And please, if you are going to bring someone into the discussion, include a link to substantiate your claims.

posted by elovrich at 12:27 PM on April 06

Like this: In addition, John Milner testified he took a stimulant called "red juice," which he found in the locker of Willie Mays when they were with the New York Mets. "The great one. Yes," Milner said. "I don't know what kind of speed it was, but it kept your eyes open." Stargell, Madlock and Mays denied using stimulants and were later exonerated by the commissioner's office. There is a statue of Mays outside San Francisco's ballpark and one of Stargell outside PNC Park. Although, in this instance, it states that Mays provided the substance, not that he used it. A fine line, and I personally find the supplying of drugs even worse than their use, but still, you should document accusations of drug use that you make with a source that is at least somewhat credible.

posted by elovrich at 02:57 PM on April 06

What is retroactive about enforcing a rule that has been on the books since 1991? All enforcement of rules or laws is done retroactively, that is, the deed is done and then the enforcement begins, to do otherwise is truly to punish someone for something they have yet to do. There is a rather large distinction between starting from one season and enforcing rules from then and going back to past seasons, creating a punishment for a rule that previously didn't have a punishment, and then choosing only a handful of players to punish. Regardless of what was in the rules, MLB did not enforce them. They decided to start enforce it last season with specified punishments. The punishment you are suggesting (ban) is even more severe than the current punishment (suspension).

posted by bperk at 03:27 PM on April 06

bperk: Agreed. I am overzealous in the advocating of banning in this case. I will tone down the rhetoric if those that are adamant about insisting that MLB needs a 'smoking gun' in order to proceed against any player for the violation of steroid policydo likewise. MLB is not a court of law and does not require the same level of proof to act in protecting itself. As far as I am aware, every player contract contains a 'detriment to the game' clause wherein any action by the player that is detrimental to the organization or MLB baseball is grounds for termination of the contract. I am not an expert in labor law in all fifty states, but I am fairly certain that the basics are the same, if you violate the terms of an employment contract, the contract can be terminated. So, if the actions of a player (Barry Bonds, for instance) are determined to have been detrimental to an organization (oh, perhaps the SF Giants Baseball Club) or to MLB in general, then that player can either be sanctioned according to the prevailing rules (suspended) or have his contract nullified. In the current marketplace, would YOU as the GM of a club, be willing to offer him a new contract until you were certain that he was clean? So, call it an outright ban, call it blackballing, call it good business, the effect would be the same. The player's career would effectively be over. I am intrigued to see, however, that the argument amongst the Bonds supporters seems to be going from "he didn't do it" to, "it wasn't against the rules", to "it isn't fair to single him out for punishment", and finally now to "it isn't right to ban him when the punishment in place is suspension." Oh, and the argument that the rule didn't have a pujnishment defined is inaccurate, the punishment was left to the Commissioner's Office to include up to permanent expulsion from the game. For reference see the memo HERE

posted by elovrich at 04:32 PM on April 06

And please, if you are going to bring someone into the discussion, include a link to substantiate your claims. Since the Mays/Greenies connection had been made more than 20 years ago, I assumed that most people who discuss baseball/drug-use would have already known about it. The same as most people should already know about the Molitor/cocaine link. Although, in this instance, it states that Mays provided the substance, not that he used it. A fine line, and I personally find the supplying of drugs even worse than their use, but still, you should document accusations of drug use that you make with a source that is at least somewhat credible. To assume that he kept the bottle in his locker without ever using it is like trying to say that Bonds purchased P.E.D. from Balco but never used them. If people are going to use basic assumptions about Bonds and his drug use, then the same assumptions can be used about Mays and his drug use. In the current marketplace, would YOU as the GM of a club, be willing to offer him a new contract until you were certain that he was clean? If Bonds were to suddenly become a free-agent, I can think of at least one team (Yankees) and possibly two others (Detroit and Seattle) that would probably sign him up as a DH (if the money was right). I am intrigued to see, however, that the argument amongst the Bonds supporters seems to be going from "he didn't do it" to, "it wasn't against the rules", to "it isn't fair to single him out for punishment", and finally now to "it isn't right to ban him when the punishment in place is suspension." Interestingly, it's a similar path fans have in regards to Pete Rose and betting on baseball: - he didn't do it - there is no proof - it wasn't baseball he bet on - he didn't bet on his own games - he's served his time - he's being unfairly prosecuted by baseball It comes from the reveal of evidence. People who have "believed it" all along are (naturally) going to make a big deal about it because they get to act all superior about the situation. "I knew all along! You are just backpedalling now!" In the case of Barry Bonds, it was (originally) just speculation. Body size and records are still just speculation. The difference with Pete Rose and gambling is that there was a thurough investigation done BEFORE the public found out. Those that defended Rose from that point on were deliberately ignoring the evidence the Dowd report found. In the case of Barry Bonds and P.E.D. use, it was the case where the "defenders" were simply getting tired of the same (weak) arguments every time. Oh, and the argument that the rule didn't have a pujnishment defined is inaccurate, the punishment was left to the Commissioner's Office to include up to permanent expulsion from the game. That's a pretty big nit to pick there. It wasn't defined explicitly, which is what some people have a problem with. Considering the maximum penalty is permanent expulsion, and the minimum penalty is to do nothing, you are suggesting that a "defined" punishment included any and all punishments available. The problem with that is MLB could dish out any punishment it feels like to any player it feels like. Bonds? - Lifetime ban because a couple of books were written about it. Giambi? - One year ban because you semi-admitted to it...kinda of. Sheffield? - No ban because we've really got nothing on you...right now. NamelessCupOfCoffeePlayer - 90 day ban because no one really cares. That's not really fair justice.

posted by grum@work at 05:01 PM on April 06

To assume that he kept the bottle in his locker without ever using it is like trying to say that Bonds purchased P.E.D. from Balco but never used them. Again, I agree with you, but this is the logic that the Bonds defenders are using. Without a smoking gun, there is no way to justify finding him guilty through the preponderance of the evidence. Considering the maximum penalty is permanent expulsion, and the minimum penalty is to do nothing, you are suggesting that a "defined" punishment included any and all punishments available. Again, we are in agreement. But in this case I will defend the openness of the penalties and say that I am not in favor of mandatory sentencing. If a CupofCoffee player is found with steroids in his locker, and is clean after that and there is no evidence, apocryphal or otherwise, that he was a longterm user, I feel that the same punishment as is levied against someone who has been a longtime user and has denied such use in the face of evidence against him would be unjust. Does this mean that I think Bonds is a long time user and should admit everything whether he is guilty or not? Of course not. BUT, if it is found that he IS a longtime user, and that he in fact did not come forth when given the opportunity to do so, then I say throw the book at him, or anyone else who would fall into this situation. My case is not made against Barry Bonds the man, I do not know him, I respect what he accomplished early in his career. While I am suspicious of his recent production, I still repect the talent that he obviously has to hit a baseball as far and as often as he does. My case is against anyone that casues harm to the game I so dearly love. And if it means making an example of one individual, or a dozen, in order to get the idea across to the players that steroid use is not accetable, nor will it be tolerated or condoned, then, as unfair as it may seem, I am for the harshest available punishment. If any professional athlete can honestly say that they were unaware of what they were putting into their bodies, they are either a liar, and think that the average fan is a dolt, or incredibly naive. This goes doubly for someone who has the reputation that Bonds has for being in complete control of everything that goes on around himself. Are we supposed to believe that someone that is so controlling of every other aspect of his life would not be clear on what they were administring to themselves? If a player comes forward and admits to using steroids, and in so doing contributes to cleaning up the game, you are damn square that I think they deserve a break. And if there is nothing that points to a player other than inuendo then yes, they should not be touched, although they may be subject to an investigation. I guess it boils down to this, if you come forward and speak out during the current investigationm then you will be afforded the lowest current suspension. If you do not, and evidence that would convince a "reasonable and prudent man" comes to light, you will be questioned about this evidence, if you admit to its truth, you would receive something less than the current maximum suspension, but more than the minimum. If you deny any wrongdoing, and cannot at least show that the evidence against you is flawed in some repect, then the devil take you, and good luck boxing groceries.... Is it possible that someone will be punished for something they have not done? Yes, it is possible. Is it likely? Not if the "reasonable and prudent man" test is met. It would be a shame, yes, but the greater shame would be to be paralyzed waiting for a smoking gun to act at all. I apologize if I speak in hyperbole, but I fear that if steroid use, and the use of all illegal/controlled drugs is not stopped dead in its tracks RIGHT NOW, then the game I love will be inalterably changed forever.

posted by elovrich at 07:28 PM on April 06

First, what is the point of punishing any players for PED use in past seasons? You are accomplishing nothing except some symbolic gesture that you are tough on steroids. If your goal is to clean up baseball, then focusing on present day and making sure that your drug testing and penalties are top-notch would be more effective. Second, the very nature of your investigational methods for past PED use ensures that only high-profile players have any fear of punishment. The likelihood of reporters investigating a 4th pitcher is not so good. Is the integrity of the game only based on what high-profile players did? I think not. In fact, by focusing only on HR hitters, you are ignoring the fact that the pitchers that they faced could also have used drugs. Certainly, a enormous investigation of every past player is not necessary to ensure the integrity of baseball. The integrity of baseball is probably most in danger from managers, team officials, GMs, owners, and MLB officials who were aware of PED and did nothing. Are they off the hook of punishment? Are you going to expand your investigation to include all of those individuals as well? What would be their punishment anyway? Maybe you should take away pennants as well and subtract wins. And, in the end, after you have finished your investigation, do you think that you will have the "truth" about what was really going on in baseball? Will innocence once again be restored to the national pastime?

posted by bperk at 11:11 AM on April 07

elovrich: That pretty much diffused any and all problems I had with your point of view. While I might not agree entirely with what you said (punishment for previous transgressions), I do agree with your logical breakdown of your argument/explanation. The only thing I'd have any quibble with is the phrase "inalterably changed forever" language. I think it's a bit strong, but it's a passionate response to a problem so it's definitely understandable.

posted by grum@work at 12:08 PM on April 07

Damn, I hate it when these discussions of Bonds and steroids break down into responsible, reasonable, respectful discourse. Well done.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 03:09 PM on April 07

Fuck you.

posted by yerfatma at 03:49 PM on April 07

Second, the very nature of your investigational methods for past PED use ensures that only high-profile players have any fear of punishment. I do not see how it follows that only high-profile players are investigated if a wide-reaching investigation is conducted. First, what is the point of punishing any players for PED use in past seasons? You are accomplishing nothing except some symbolic gesture that you are tough on steroids. If your goal is to clean up baseball, then focusing on present day and making sure that your drug testing and penalties are top-notch would be more effective. As I said earlier, any punishment is, by definition, for past transgressions. Yes, MLB could just ignore anything that happened prior to this year and begin a thorough and comprehensive testing and punishment regimen from this day forward. That would be satisfactory. But, would it be MORE meaningful if they looked back over the last several years? Perhaps. I like to think that it would. Of course, I may be completely wrong, but that is the beauty of the discussion. I can have my opinion, and as long as it is fairly well-reasoned, and can be defended on its own merits, then I cannot be faulted for holding said opinion. It may be fantastical and completely unrealistic, but as long as it is internally consistent and based on well-reasoned premises, then I would hope that the worst someone could say is that I have a pipe-dream and am off tilting at windmills in this issue. As far as what to do about records, obviously, if you begin to completely wipe people from the record book, you change outcomes, of games, of complete seasons. That is why I set an arbitrary threshhold, if it is shown that more than 8% of the league (about 2 players per team) were using steroids on any particular year, completely segregate the ENTIRE SEASON, all individual records and team records would be kept seperate from career and historical compilations. In other words, the season never happened except in regards to itself. If less than 8% are shown to have been using, then the records stand as they currently are.

posted by elovrich at 06:16 PM on April 07

BTW; grum, that is why I apologized beforehand for the hyperbole..... *s*

posted by elovrich at 06:17 PM on April 07

elovrich, I think the issue is that the past transgressions are far enough in the past that punishing for them is less about saving the game and more about a symbolic outing to placate public opinion. The game is pretty healthy these days, look at attendance numbers. It doesn't really need saving. Moving forward, yes, I wholeheartedly support strong sanctions for verifiable offenses. But digging into the past and looking for the "gotcha" isn't an investigation, its a witch hunt and yes, those will almost certainly be more focused on higher profile players. And that is discrimination. And here, I'll admit. Barry probably has used PED's. But singling him out for prosecution is ludicrous given the wide range of other players doing the exact same thing. I'd also like to say that this discussion has been illuminating and enjoyable to read. Thanks for the well thought out comments and civil responses!

posted by fenriq at 11:32 PM on April 07

Remember 5 cent beer night at the old Cleveland Muni Stadium? Total chaos... Or death to disco? Or bottlegate? When the Browns fans threw beer bottles at the officials? I love the Browns but I was not proud to be a Browns fan at that time.

posted by ctownguy at 02:11 AM on May 03

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