FanDuel - WFBC

March 20, 2006

Soriano refuses to play outfield for Nationals: "The player refused to take the field, which we believe is a violation of his contract," Bowden said. Soriano, a four-time All-Star second baseman, was listed as batting leadoff and playing left field on a lineup sheet posted in the Nationals' clubhouse before Monday night's 11-5 loss to the Los Angeles Dodgers. But when the Nationals took the field in the top of the first, Soriano wasn't out there. With play just about ready to start, left field was empty.

posted by BullpenPro to baseball at 09:47 PM - 140 comments

The biggest shock to me is that Soriano, after "discussing" his decision with Frank Robinson, didn't eventually show up in left field with a pronounced limp. Forget that he is frustrating the position flexibility of fantasy baseball owners everywhere, the real story here is that Jeff Kent's hold on the starting lineup of the All-Jerk team is in serious jeopardy. Soriano is on the verge of "prima donna-ing" (not to be confused with "pre-Madonna-ing") his way out of $10 freakin' mil.

posted by BullpenPro at 09:58 PM on March 20

Jim Rome talked about this some tonight and, I think, got it right. Its not like Soriano is a Gold Glove second basemen, he's got the lowest fielding percentage of any second basemen in the last umpteen years (I can't remember the exact stat). And he's about to go on MLB's version of the T.O. list. What a dumbass, I bet he's got a posse surrounding him filling his head with all kinds of nonsense. BullpenPro, not to worry, Jeff Kent's stranglehold on the All-Jerk team is still very tight.

posted by fenriq at 10:47 PM on March 20

Ha! I knew Soriano was a butthead. Anyone who has moved like he has so young in his career is clearly possessed of some important defect that affects teammates. I hope Vidro finds a way to stay healthy for a whole season - he's a far superior fielder to Soriano and arguably as good a hitter (though with less power) when he's in good shape.

posted by mikelbyl at 11:12 PM on March 20

Yeah, here is a guy who can be a positive addition to any team, he does it all offensively, but just can't seem to realize he is less of a liability in the outfield. He has the speed and arm to be a decent left fielder, I am not sure what his objection to playing the outfield is, but, perhaps some time on the bench and a few less dollars in the bank can persuade him to expound on that subject. If the Nats do trade him, we fans in Texas would take him back in a heartbeat, but i don't see that happening with his fat contract. Back to the Yankees?

posted by mjkredliner at 11:12 PM on March 20

This punk aint close to TO status.

posted by chrisly13 at 11:16 PM on March 20

I've always felt Soriano was overrated due to the fantasy baseball phenomenon -- basically the fact that he mashes for a second baseman (position scarcity) and steals quite a few bases (overvalued in fantasy relative to real-world impact). For what it's worth, his .821 OPS would have put him 12th among regular left fielders (for all of MLB) last year -- just a bit better than average. Also for what it's worth, according to Buster Olney at ESPN, Soriano has stated that the only team for which he would move to the outfield is the Yankees.

posted by holden at 11:26 PM on March 20

I am not sure what his objection to playing the outfield is this is nothing like the TO thing. This is all about money. In the outfield he's average offensively; at 2B, his offense comes at a premium. His numbers may have been inflated at Arlington, but who's to say he has the arm for the outfield?

posted by ninjavshippo at 11:30 PM on March 20

What a dumbass, I bet he's got a posse surrounding him filling his head with all kinds of nonsense. Why does this keep coming up? It seems so silly to imply that someone who likes the company of his friends makes bad decisions based on their company. Soriano is certainly making a bad choice here, but what the fuck could it possibly have to do with a "posse?" This came up in the Vince young thread, and in all of the TO threads. Its a cultural phenomenon; if you are not willing to demontrate a correlation between it and the instances you are relating it to, just don't bring it up. It makes you sound ignorant, and culturally insensitive.

posted by everett at 01:45 AM on March 21

i agree with ninja. he wants 2b for the prestige. he's a shoe-in for the all-star team at 2b andd arguablly the best hitter at his position all-time. he goes to left and he's still a damn good hitter, but not the elite of his position. being the best at your position, no matter what position that is, gets you a hell of a lot more money than being in the top-half of your position.

posted by SavyMcSaverson at 02:21 AM on March 21

everett, so sorry, I guess you know him well enough to know why he's doing this. I wish you'd commented earlier. Then we could have all avoided any of this idle internet speculation and gotten back to....idle internet speculation. What's culturally insensitive about saying he might have pals giving him bad advice? Oh, because I used the word "posse"? Bah, whatever, now who's being ignorant?

posted by fenriq at 02:33 AM on March 21

What's culturally insensitive about saying he might have pals giving him bad advice? Because if he were white, the suggestion would have never come up. Grove Street for life. You down for the family, homey?

posted by yerfatma at 05:42 AM on March 21

I think that he's still mad because he lost in arbitration and is only getting a measely ten friggin' meeeeellyun dollars (*pinky to corner of mouth). But seriously, I think that making him move to LF is a huge blow to his ego. He's got to suck it up and take one for the team -- or get disqualified. Oh, and the 'posse' thing, I think that he likes it because it sounds so much like the other 'p' word and he gets excited.

posted by wingnut4life at 06:08 AM on March 21

fenriq, you were the one who claimed to know his motives or impulses, not me. I did not speculate, it was you who did that. so yes, you are still the ignorant one.

posted by everett at 07:10 AM on March 21

I was at the Nationals-Dodgers game on Sunday at Dodgertown, which I wrote about on my blog. The Nationals are a mess. They began the game with two errors by their infielders and a drop by the first baseman that should have been another error. Frank Robinson and Davey Lopes were tossed in the third inning! They've made more than 35 errors this spring and lost a top reliever to season-ending arm surgery in the World Baseball Classic. I'm beginning to think the Nationals will become the first team to enter rebuilding mode for next season before Opening Day. As for Soriano, he's reminding me of Chris Gatling, who refused to start for the Dallas Mavericks because he was known as one of the league's best Sixth Men. I've never taken the "Sixth Man" praise seriously again after that. I think he's too good to have bounced from the Yankees to the Rangers to Nationals, but it's time for him to let go of his insistence on playing second base.

posted by rcade at 07:21 AM on March 21

Geez, bad stuff like that never happened when the franchise was in Montreal.

posted by Amateur at 07:33 AM on March 21

....didn't Soriano refuse to play outfield for his former team? ....didn't he also tell the Nationals he wouldn't play outfield before they traded for him? ....didn't the Nationals already have an all-star 2nd baseman when they traded for a man they knew wasn't going to play outfield? ....didn't the Nationals GM ignore this information before he traded with them and basically said "we'll deal with this later". Well he's dealing with it later. I have a hard time feeling sorry for them. I don't follow the Nationals at all but even I knew that he wasn't playing outfield..why is this a shock?

posted by bdaddy at 08:01 AM on March 21

Everyone who is defending him remember that the next time your boss tells you to do something that is not in your job description and you do it anyway. Not for 10 mil a year either. For 10 mil a year I'd be the friggin' bat boy.

posted by scottypup at 08:44 AM on March 21

Everyone who is defending him remember that the next time your boss tells you to do something that is not in your job description and you do it anyway. Not for 10 mil a year either. For 10 mil a year I'd be the friggin' bat boy. I don't know about you, but if my boss asked me to start answering telephones at the front desk, I would't do it. Especially if I knew that once I did that for a few years I'd have a hard time making the money I do now at another job, should I ever choose to leave.

posted by bdaddy at 08:47 AM on March 21

Bdaddy makes a good point. It isn't like Soriano has said that he wanted to move to the outfield. He has made it clear that he doesn't want to, that he wants to play second base. Does that make him self centered? Pretty much. But I think that this entire thing is Washington's fault for failing to foresee the problem that would arise when they tried to make him do something he had said he wouldn't do.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 09:01 AM on March 21

Ijust hope the Cubs trade for him.

posted by Underdog at 09:04 AM on March 21

Geez, bad stuff like that never happened when the franchise was in Montreal. Actually, just one really bad thing happened to them. But I think any franchise would take Soriano, the lost relief pitching, the 35 errors, and RFK Stadium over Jeffrey Loria.

posted by DrJohnEvans at 09:06 AM on March 21

I'm sure Marlin fans aren't looking at Loria today as they did a few years ago. I hope the fans in Oklahoma, Texas, and Nevada learn from history.

posted by ?! at 09:13 AM on March 21

I don't know about you, but if my boss asked me to start answering telephones at the front desk, I would't do it. And I'm sure you would eventually find another job. No one knows what kind of money he would make and besides he's already making 10 mil a year so it is nothing but ego anyway. When you get into that kind of money it has nothing to do with "providing for his family" or any of the things you and I and folks in the real world deal with. It is all about inflated ego's.

posted by scottypup at 09:22 AM on March 21

The Nationals are going to put him on the disqualified list.

posted by jerseygirl at 09:39 AM on March 21

No one knows what kind of money he would make and besides he's already making 10 mil a year so it is nothing but ego anyway. When you get into that kind of money it has nothing to do with "providing for his family" or any of the things you and I and folks in the real world deal with. It is all about inflated ego's. And I respond to this with the same comment I always do when people who are bitter about how much athletes make start complaining..... Couldn't a woman working 2 jobs living in the projects say the same thing about you? If you make $40k/year, couldn't she say that you asking for $45/year raise has nothing to do with providing for your family as she's doing it making $10k? Couldn't she also accuse you of trying to inflate your ego? It's all about perspective. Economics 101 teaches you, you spend what you make. If someone has $10 million, he's got bills for the year that cost him that. He's not driving a yugo...he's not living in a duplex. Could he live in a 1 bedroom apartment? Of course. Would he? Of course not. Would you live in that same efficiency in the projects that that woman does? Athletes have a very short time (most anyways) to get as absolutely much money as they can. They have employers that can afford to give them that. It would be irresponsible of them to not get every penny they can, just as it would be for you not to get as much as you can at your job.

posted by bdaddy at 10:02 AM on March 21

And I'm sure you would eventually find another job. There's no comparison between a regular job and Soriano's situation, because he isn't free to quit the Nationals and join another team. They can even stick him on the DQ list and push back his opportunity for free agency next year. When he was traded, Soriano made no secret of the fact that he wouldn't switch positions. "It's the problem of the team. They know they have Vidro and they [have me] at second base, too. That's not my problem. That's not Vidro's problem. That's the team's problem." He's getting screwed here, and I can't fault him too much for sticking to his original position (in both senses of the term), though I think he should consider playing in the outfield.

posted by rcade at 10:18 AM on March 21

Couldn't a woman working 2 jobs living in the projects say the same thing about you? If you make $40k/year, couldn't she say that you asking for $45/year raise has nothing to do with providing for your family as she's doing it making $10k? And I respond to this with the same comment I always do... The salary/quality of life ratio is not a straight line. The difference between $10K and $45K in these terms is HUGE. The difference between $45K and $100K is big, but not as big. Somewhere between $100K and $10mil, there has to be a serious plateau in terms of quality of life. If Soriano makes his $10mil, he never has to make another dollar the rest of his life and he and generations of his lineage can live very nicely just off the interest. You can't say that about $10K, $45K or even $100K. My conclusion, then: Soriano is a selfish prima donna whose petulance will hurt, not help, his career.

posted by BullpenPro at 10:23 AM on March 21

Bullpenpro your whole point hinges on your, "serious plateau in terms of quality of life" which I don't think exists and I think you would have a tough time proving.

posted by tron7 at 10:40 AM on March 21

I am not complaining or whining in any way about what athletes make. They are welcome to anything the owners want to pay them. What I do have a problem with is a prima donna cry baby making several mil a year and saying it isn't enough. There is absolutely no economic reason for someone to need more money other than greed and ego. So and so just signed for 12 mil a year..i have to go try and redo my conttract for 15 mil. It is all ego's.

posted by scottypup at 10:42 AM on March 21

Bullpenpro your whole point hinges on your, "serious plateau in terms of quality of life" which I don't think exists and I think you would have a tough time proving. Tron7 do you seriously believe that someone making say 15 mil a year has that much better a life than someone making 2 mil? It is very much expotential. 15k is a ton more than 12k a year. 15 mil is negligible compared to 12 mil.

posted by scottypup at 10:44 AM on March 21

ok let me get this right. He's scheduled to make ten million dollars playing baseball, staying in the finest hotels, eating at the best resturants, living a golden life as I see it. So he's upset that he won't be playing his position of choice, yet the National's take him because they believe in his skills and feel that even in Left he'll benefit the TEAM. Sorry, Soriano your a pussy to ninth degree, prima donna doesn't even come close. You play a game for a living asshole.

posted by km2262 at 10:46 AM on March 21

everett, actually no, I didn't claim to know his motives, I speculated that he might be getting crappy advice from his pals, maybe its his agent, maybe he's getting bad advice from the alien parasite that lives at the base of his spine. If you read my comment as a claim to know what's going inside his head then sorry but you're beyond ignorant and are just plain on stupid. Whatever Soriano's reasoning for this incredibly stupid decision, he's creating a bad rep for himself that will soon eclipse whatever positives he could bring to a team unless he gets his head out of his ass and goes to take his position. Last I checked, the manager decides who plays where, right? Not the players? Sit his dumb ass down, don't pay him and let him stew until he starts playing properly again. I do think I would have liked to see Frank Robinson's face when Alfonso told him no though.

posted by fenriq at 11:05 AM on March 21

Tron7 do you seriously believe that someone making say 15 mil a year has that much better a life than someone making 2 mil? Were talking quality of life here and not happiness so yes. Your making seven times more money at 15 million than at 2 million. I think it would be a pretty dramatic change in what you could spend. It is very much expotential. 15k is a ton more than 12k a year. 15 mil is negligible compared to 12 mil. And this part I just don't get.

posted by tron7 at 11:19 AM on March 21

Tron7 you obviously do not know what quality of life means. Once all your needs are met then quality of life does not change that much. Does being able to afford a new Hummer every year improve your quality of life compared to only buying one every other year. Get real. The difference in income once you get to a certain level does not affect your quality of life. Double your income from 20k to 40 k a year it makes a huge difference. Double if from 5 mil to 10 mil..it does not. No matter that you fail to understand it most people agree that when athletes start whining about not making enough money or not getting exactly what they want it is nothing but ego and childishness talking.

posted by scottypup at 11:30 AM on March 21

There's a monstrous difference between $12K a year and $15K a year, there's not so much day-to-day difference in $2 million and $10 million. Yes, there will be a difference later but you aren't gonna starve at $2 million a year. Remember Chris Rock's bit on pre-nuptuals? On preview, what scottypup said.

posted by fenriq at 11:39 AM on March 21

Who says that there isn't much of a quality of life difference between 5 mil and 10 mil? What are you basing this on?

posted by bperk at 11:47 AM on March 21

Here is another take on the Soriano story: As a left fielder, with his batting numbers, he's really not all that special. If he is going to be slotted as an outfielder and continue to bat as he currently does (not a guarantee, given the change in ballparks), he will not be making superstar money in the future. If he stayed as a 2B, he'd be making significantly more. His future earnings are almost definitely hindered by moving to left field. One more point: if Washington tries to trade Soriano, they will almost assuredly be eating some of his contract, probably in the range of $5mil/year. So Bowden has gone and traded for a player without consulting with him about the position he is to play, and will probably have to trade him and lose $5mil in the process. clap clap clap Bravo!

posted by grum@work at 11:49 AM on March 21

For anyone still interested in the story, here is a Washington Post article from Sunday discussing the Soriano problem and more details on the trade. on preview: Texas didn't allow Bowden access to Soriano.

posted by tron7 at 11:52 AM on March 21

About this "quality of life" debate and earning millions of dollars. People should remember that most of these athletes will not be earning "millions of dollars" for a very long time. Injuries, decline of skill and age limitations usually mean only a 3 to 5 year span in which to have a large contract (and only for the superstars). Don't forget to figure in the fact that when they stop earning the money, they'll probably be in their mid-30s. That means as much as 40 to 50 more years of living without their usual income. The "$10million lifestyle" probably dips down to the "$2million lifestyle", and the "$2million lifestyle" drops down into the "$400,000 lifestyle" (assuming they don't blow their money). It may not seem like a hardship, but most people don't have to worry about a big change in spending habits until they are in their 60s. on preview: Texas didn't allow Bowden access to Soriano. Then Bowden's an even bigger idiot than I thought.

posted by grum@work at 11:54 AM on March 21

Reading the Washington Post article, it sure sounds as if the Nats made a major miscalculation. They were seriously betting on their persuasive skills. I really don't fault Soriano for this. He couldn't have been more clear about his intentions.

posted by bperk at 12:02 PM on March 21

when athletes start whining about not making enough money or not getting exactly what they want it is nothing but ego and childishness talking Don't you people work? Isn't whining about not being paid enough and about how So-and-So who you keep covering for are making twice as you are the exact way everyone spends their time in the workplace?

posted by qbert72 at 12:11 PM on March 21

Yes.

posted by jerseygirl at 12:27 PM on March 21

All the talk on espn radio is that Soriano is afraid of fly balls. He doesn't want to look stupid. Not sure how accurate that is, but interesting.

posted by tron7 at 12:39 PM on March 21

Don't you people work? Isn't whining about not being paid enough and about how So-and-So who you keep covering for are making twice as you are the exact way everyone spends their time in the workplace? exactly. The people that are complaining are jealous of the income these athletes make and are venting their frustrations about it...not taking into any consideration (or having absolute no understanding) about how the exact same situation can be applied to them by someone making less than they do. As I said, its all about perspective. The last time I had this argument on this forum, the guy basically got out if it by saying he never has, nor will ever ask for a raise from his employers. That's very nobel of him, but also very foolish. I have no idea about basebally, but the average NFL career is less than 4 years. So they have a limited amount of time to make as much money as they can, before they end up back in the real world. Anyone who can't understand why they wouldn't fight and scrape for even a nickel of that doesn't understand human nature. And anyone that doesn't understand that lifestyles adapt to your income, doesn't understand economics 101.

posted by bdaddy at 12:57 PM on March 21

Once all your needs are met then quality of life does not change that much. Does being able to afford a new Hummer every year improve your quality of life compared to only buying one every other year. Get real. So who judges that quality of life? To that woman in the projects the fact that you own a car at all doesn't improve your quality of life, as she gets by fine without one. So should you give your car up because she judges it to be not necessary to her vision of quality of life? No? Then why the hell should Soriano do the same because his idea of having a summer home in the Hamptons doesn't match your vision of quality of life?

posted by bdaddy at 01:00 PM on March 21

Those of you saying he is overrated and would only be an "average hitter compared to other outfielders" are obviously not seeing the same stats I am: 36/30 with 102 r's and 104 rbi's. Average? Granted, his numbers may be a little inflated due to hitting at The Ballpark, and having a slew of decent hitters around him, but remember that he is only 30 years old, hit in the number 2 spot much of last year, and plays every day. Average indeed. He is not a pure hack at 2B, I believe many of his gaffe's can be attributed to trying to hard, and I think he would be better off out of Washington.

posted by mjkredliner at 01:35 PM on March 21

Last I checked, the manager decides who plays where, right? Not the players? Since when? The star players in baseball who willingly accept new positions, like A-Rod, are rare. This was going to be a contract year for Soriano, so there's also a career consideration in his desire to stay at second.

posted by rcade at 01:56 PM on March 21

36/30 with 102 r's and 104 rbi's. Average? Take a look at OF by OPS last year and look where he'd rank.

posted by yerfatma at 02:15 PM on March 21

star players in baseball who willingly accept new positions, like A-Rod, are rare. Agreed. Barry Larkin would not budge from shortstop, even after age had slowed him down. He wouldn't move to second base let alone left field. Why don't they move Soriano to short?

posted by tselson at 02:25 PM on March 21

Soriano would be a nightmare at short, his arm isn't strong enough.

posted by everett at 02:29 PM on March 21

I can't exactly toss petrol onto this fire, but if the Nats are interested in a 40 yr old left fielder that can't hit his weight and is as slow as time, I know one that they can have for half the money as Soriano and I (I mean he) won't make a peep.

posted by THX-1138 at 02:46 PM on March 21

What about Vidro? I have a feeling, that to an All-Star second basemen, being asked to move to left field is like asking a French chef to work the fry station at Burger King. If Soriano's arm is so weak, why the hell would they put him in the outfield?

posted by tselson at 02:49 PM on March 21

To that woman in the projects the fact that you own a car at all doesn't improve your quality of life, as she gets by fine without one. Do you know this woman? She "gets by fine without one?" Maybe if she lives in the middle of a city, but if she lives anywhere in Connecticut she would give her eye teeth for a car. Public transportation does not suddenly appear for every person who can't afford a car. The last time I had this argument on this forum, the guy basically got out if it by saying he never has, nor will ever ask for a raise from his employers. That's very nobel of him, but also very foolish. Maybe the guy just wanted to move on to something else. I'm willing to prove your point, though. You pay me $10 million this year, and let's see if I can't a) make it last a dozen lifetimes and b) take it without desperately grasping for more. Just one year. I'm 38 -- retirement age for most athletes. Let's see if I can do it. It's just one year's salary. As tired as you seem to be about the whining about what professional athletes make, I am just as tired of hearing people making excuses for athletes with this very lame "lifestyles adapt to income" argument. In the same breath you state a known fact that athletes have a short window within which to make their millions, then say that their lifestyle is bound to become more extravagant than the regular person's because they make so much money. So, do they make enough money to last the rest of their lives or don't they? You basically just said that athletes will "fight and scrape for even a nickel" so they can keep their "summer home in the Hamptons." Your argument is so ridiculous, it's no wonder people say crazy things to get out of it. As for Soriano, I actually don't care if he's making $10 million or $10K. He signed a contract to be a player on a team sport. He has an obligation to do what is in the best interest of the team. Don't give me that "he gave the Nationals fair warning" garbage. He was wrong before the trade to suggest he wouldn't move, and he's wrong now. Moving to the outfield in a contract year doesn't make him an outfielder -- it makes him a player with position flexibility for a new club, and that has a lot more value than a whiny prima donna. The star players in baseball who willingly accept new positions, like A-Rod, are rare. Huh? Albert Pujols, Miguel Cabrera, Craig Biggio, Adam Dunn, Darin Erstad, Edgardo Alfonzo, Michael Young, Chipper Jones, even Jeff freakin' Kent, (going back) Robin Yount, Cal Ripken, Pete Rose, Rod Carew, Edgar Martinez, Yogi Berra, Hank Greenberg, Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth... In closing, if Soriano doesn't want his job, there are probably only 365,000 people who will swap places with him. He's afraid of fly balls? The way he plays defense, I'd say he's afraid of the ball, period. He's lucky he's in the position he's in, and if he doesn't come around my guess is he's going to discover how lucky he WAS.

posted by BullpenPro at 03:04 PM on March 21

And that's why they call him Bullpenpro. (My phone hasn't rung yet, Nats)

posted by THX-1138 at 03:10 PM on March 21

Soriano would be a nightmare at short, his arm isn't strong enough. so let's put him in the outfield and make him a piethrower who's a gamble on a popfly? the whole situation was screwed from the start. as for the quality of life debate, i think i'd have to go bdaddy ftw. your commemorative windbreaker is in the mail.

posted by ninjavshippo at 03:10 PM on March 21

Soriano is afraid of fly balls. He doesn't want to look stupid That honestly wouldn't surprise me. Settling under a fly ball is entirely different from using instinct and reflex in the infield. After a wonderful little league career at shortstop and third base, my playing days were over when (later in life) the softball team stuck me in left. That position was totally foreign to me and it made me look silly.

posted by tselson at 03:16 PM on March 21

I caught more fly balls with my head then with my glove...and the Nats haven't called me yet...

posted by wingnut4life at 03:22 PM on March 21

"I just hope they can fix the situation," outfielder Jose Guillen said. "That's up to the people upstairs and Soriano. I think everybody's a grown-up man here." It is to laugh! I never thought I would be saying another professional athlete made Terrell Owens look mature. At least T.O. whines only after he plays.

posted by L.N. Smithee at 03:23 PM on March 21

As for Soriano, I actually don't care if he's making $10 million or $10K. He signed a contract to be a player on a team sport. He has an obligation to do what is in the best interest of the team. Don't give me that "he gave the Nationals fair warning" garbage. He was wrong before the trade to suggest he wouldn't move, and he's wrong now. Moving to the outfield in a contract year doesn't make him an outfielder -- it makes him a player with position flexibility for a new club, and that has a lot more value than a whiny prima donna. Soriano's primary obligation is to himself and doing what is right for his career. I find it hard to believe that I would do something different. If at my job, they suddenly wanted to completely shift my position such that it would, in my opinion, decrease my future career opportunities, I would fight it as well. It is your opinion that it would help his career, not his own. I definitely don't buy this obligation to do what is in the best interest of the team stuff. That "obligation" is not without his limits. And, the limit is when what is in the best obligation of the team sharply diverges from what is in one's personal or business interests.

posted by bperk at 03:28 PM on March 21

You pay me $10 million this year, and let's see if I can't a) make it last a dozen lifetimes and b) take it without desperately grasping for more. But, athletes are not really living the same life you are and why should they be? They are in a much more profitable line of business than most of us. It isn't really the amount of money, it is the share of the money that matters and compared to their colleagues. If everyone around you was making more for less, you would want more too -- even if you had plenty of money. CEOs do not compare themselves to the employees working under them to see if they have a good compensation package, they compare themselves to other CEOs. And minimum wage workers probably think I am ridiculous for complaining about MMAs or 529 plans. But, we aren't all working with the same realities.

posted by bperk at 03:41 PM on March 21

Good Post bperk. I agree. With the nature of free agency in baseball if you worry about what the team wants over what you want, you're screwing yourself and your ability to improve your earning capacity. Ask the manager if he wants to get paid the same but be the first base coach instead. He'll say "hell no Im a better manager and I would be hurting my ability to make more $$ in the future"

posted by Underdog at 03:43 PM on March 21

So how is not taking the field going to be good for your career? I don't know about other people, but professional athletes are priveleged to play a game for a living and make the kind of living that so few can enjoy. I make great money at my job, and the reason I have advanced is because of something called work ethic. Stop complaining about changing positions on a playing field. Work harder to become a better left fielder. We're talking about practice. Wealth and lifestyle have no bearing in my book to how hard you work.

posted by THX-1138 at 03:44 PM on March 21

Other than: work harder-enjoy more wealth and a better lifestyle

posted by THX-1138 at 03:46 PM on March 21

So how is not taking the field going to be good for your career? He's gonna get traded thats how & hes gonna get to play 2nd which is what he wants & hes gonna still be considered a great hitting second baseman rather than a poor fielding, weak armed left fielder who doesnt deserve the big $ cuz he's not a great hitting outfielder.

posted by Underdog at 03:55 PM on March 21

outfielder Jose Guillen said . . . "I think everybody's a grown-up man here." Just pulling that out.

posted by yerfatma at 04:19 PM on March 21

And minimum wage workers probably think I am ridiculous for complaining about MMAs or 529 plans. But, we aren't all working with the same realities. exactly. That is entirely my point. From someone elses perspective your salary is extravagant and you wanting more would be considered egotistical and greedy.

posted by bdaddy at 04:20 PM on March 21

You basically just said that athletes will "fight and scrape for even a nickel" so they can keep their "summer home in the Hamptons." absolutely. Just like you would fight and scrape for any nickel so you can keep your new toyota corolla (when in fact a used pinto would get you to and from anywhere you want). Is that new toyota necessary for "quality of life"? To that woman in the projects the fact that you own a car at all doesn't improve your quality of life, as she gets by fine without one. Do you know this woman? She "gets by fine without one?" Maybe if she lives in the middle of a city, but if she lives anywhere in Connecticut she would give her eye teeth for a car. Public transportation does not suddenly appear for every person who can't afford a car. Did you even grasp the point I was trying to make? You start questioning where this mythical woman lives, so the point obviously escaped you.

posted by bdaddy at 04:27 PM on March 21

I don't understand why all of you are making this a money issue. The fact of the matter is that the guy wants to be a second baseman is a second baseman and when they traded for him they knew that he is a second baseman. I personally am a machinsist by trade and if I was told after I hired into a company that they wanted me to be a janitor instead it wouldn't matter if they gave me more money to do that job I would tell them no. If they didn't like that no then they could fire me. I can tell you from expierience on this issue because this situation has happened to me that I would be eligible for unemployment if they did fire me. So what I am getting at is the guy is getting the shaft. He is going to have to sit out a season and not get paid at all for it and he doesn't have the option to quit and go to another team. If you ask me I don't care how much money is involved he is getting a raw deal and I commend him for sticking to his convictions and standing up for himself. That is a quality that made this country great and is rapidly dissapearring. Any one of you that would let your company push you around deserve to have subpar jobs and that is probably why most of you hate your jobs and take out your frustations online against people that went out and found their dream job. He has his dream job so why shouldn't he fight to keep it? If you would like to debate this issue personally with me which is by no means a money issue but a convictions issue you can look me up on myspace.com and find my profile and send me a message.

posted by chavez0101 at 04:28 PM on March 21

So Soriano must be refreshed of the contract he signed? Or the Nats are trying to get rid of him already? Please someone tell me what the HELL is going on? My opinion is just PLAY BALL, your an athlete play any position you want, if you suck at it, im sure the coach will bench you. then at least your becoming a mill$man at the game while everybody is mad at the coach.Or coach puts you where you play best.(RIGHT?)Look at the players of baseball that would love to make it to the SHOW. and could or would play wher ever they were told. And yes I would and have took a different occupation for more money.

posted by wvu1fan at 05:20 PM on March 21

My, its like CNN Money in here.

posted by jerseygirl at 05:29 PM on March 21

How many teams with money are going to want to trade for a guy who doesn't want to take the field because he doesn't like the position? If I was a GM, (which I'm not) I would look at Soriano as someone who wasn't confident in his skills defensively, a whiner, petulant, self-absorbed, and not worth the $'s. But certainly not unique.

posted by THX-1138 at 05:42 PM on March 21

P.S. GO EER'S

posted by wvu1fan at 05:44 PM on March 21

Huh? Albert Pujols, Miguel Cabrera, Craig Biggio, Adam Dunn, Darin Erstad, Edgardo Alfonzo, Michael Young, Chipper Jones, even Jeff freakin' Kent, (going back) Robin Yount, Cal Ripken, Pete Rose, Rod Carew, Edgar Martinez, Yogi Berra, Hank Greenberg, Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth... Not to nitpick, but I think the Braves traded the consensus top third base prospect in baseball (Andy Marte) because Chipper insisted on staying at 3B and the Braves acquiesced due (among other things) to Chipper having reworked his contract to try to help the Braves keep Furcal. I know he did go to the OF for a while, but he has been clear about wanting to play 3B (my totally unsubstantiated guess is that it's because he's got a better Hall of Fame case as a 3B). So instead of having a good hitting prospect with excellent defense at the hot corner for low $$ the next several years, the Braves are stuck with Chipper, who should be playing in the OF or at 1B and will have subpar offense (relative to Chipper) from at least one of the positions that he could otherwise play. How many teams with money are going to want to trade for a guy who doesn't want to take the field because he doesn't like the position? A bunch of teams that can get him for 50 cents on the dollar, that's who.

posted by holden at 06:17 PM on March 21

I reiterate: If a bunch of teams can get him for 50 cents on the dollar, how does that help his career? And his attitude will not go unnoticed by the good GM's. Maybe the Cowboys. OOPS, wrong thread.

posted by THX-1138 at 06:27 PM on March 21

I reiterate: If a bunch of teams can get him for 50 cents on the dollar, how does that help his career? THX-1138 -- I was referring to your original question about who would trade for Soriano. Whether his action helps his career once he becomes a free agent is a totally different question with a totally different answer.

posted by holden at 06:32 PM on March 21

chavez0101: I personally am a machinsist by trade and if I was told after I hired into a company that they wanted me to be a janitor instead it wouldn't matter if they gave me more money to do that job I would tell them no. If they didn't like that no then they could fire me. Your analogy is absurd. If you were hired to be a machinist, and they asked you to be a janitor, your bosses would be too stupid to work for. No smart businessperson pays machinist wages for a janitor! Nobody is asking Soriano to clean toilets. He is being paid more than an financial district full of after-hours janitors is paid every day to catch fly balls in-between hitting .300 with 30 HRs. In other words, they are asking him to be a B-A-L-L-P-L-A-Y-E-R. If he can't cut it out there, the Nationals will have to consider letting him (or Vidro) go, and as for his contract year business, he should spend more time worrying about looking like a crybaby not taking his position. He's damaged his reputation by doing that more than he would have if he had just stunk in left field.

posted by L.N. Smithee at 07:01 PM on March 21

No, Holden, I see your point. I guess what I was getting at in round-a-bout way was that he is ultimately hurting his career by trying to impose his will on his team. Frankly, to me it's not a question of finance, it's a question of character. And I still believe he is making himself very hard to market. Woe to his agent.

posted by THX-1138 at 07:04 PM on March 21

Just wait 'til the Player's Association gets into this...

posted by wolfdad at 07:08 PM on March 21

No smart businessperson pays machinist wages for a janitor! And yet they signed Royce Clayton when they already had Cristian Guzman. You don't know Jim Bowden do you?

posted by lilnemo at 07:13 PM on March 21

Let's see if I got this correct. Soriano has been a major league second baseman for 5 years and has been an all star the last 4 of those years. As an all-star 2nd baseman due to become a free agent next year, he'll become one of the highest paid ballplayers. As an outfielder, he'll be an average hitter and not particularly sought after as a free agent. Somehow, his sticking to his guns is an incorrect move? I suppose that if Michael Vick got traded, and his new boss decided that he wanted Vick to be a linebacker, you folks obviously think Vick should be a good little boy and play linebacker, or defensive end, or whatever wacko move some idiot boss wants him to do.

posted by drevl at 07:32 PM on March 21

And yet they signed Royce Clayton when they already had Cristian Guzman. Considering the putresence that was Guzman last year, not necessarily a bad move. It also appears that Guzman may end up missing the season with a shoulder injury.

posted by holden at 08:10 PM on March 21

Soriano and others like him have enough fans supporting them that they can get away with this. Athletes are nothing more than a part of the entertainment industry, like movie stars, and if people did not go to the show they put on and the teams started seeing a drop in attendance maybe the owners would wake up and show them the door.

posted by joromu at 08:24 PM on March 21

I agree...with all of you.

posted by ayankeefan at 08:47 PM on March 21

And yet they signed Royce Clayton when they already had Cristian Guzman. In Bowden's defense, it is easy to forget that you have Cristian Guzman. Wow, this thread has gone berzerk. My last post got taken to task, but I don't want to take up that many more column inches (or work minutes -- I do some of that, too). THX and Mr. Smithee got the bulk of my view in, but I'll add this:. Soriano isn't being asked to take tickets or sell hot dogs -- left field is a "parallel" move that would obviously be in the best interests of the team. But please note, before you start to argue the "parallelity" of the move, that more importantly, Soriano's job is one that is enjoyed by very few and coveted by thousands, if not millions. It is a privilege that some people would sell their soul for -- and not just the impoverished Dominican kids that look up to Soriano (or used to), but people who ended up with pretty good jobs -- George Will, Stephen King, Billy Crystal... I could go on and on. I would personally give my right arm right up to the tattered rotator cuff to suffer the indignity of being asked to play left field for the Nationals. It's not like those other jobs, it's not like any other job anywhere, and by virtue of being on this site you should recognize that. Alfonso Soriano can take his uppercut-swinging-bad-ball-chasing-groundball-dropping-doubleplay-bumbling-fly-ball-fearing-Frank-Robinson-vexing-big-buck-seeking-ego-inflating petulance and his ten million dollars and go screw.

posted by BullpenPro at 08:55 PM on March 21

From what I've heard and read, Soriano is a good guy. For example, when he was traded from the Yankees to the Rangers for A-Rod, he didn't pout. He went out and played the same as he did in New York. What I don't get is why the Nationals traded from him when they already had Vidro. It probably doesn't make any sense to Soriano either. The Nationals knew his position a long time before the season started. So I have to question the organization's management and business skils. The organization is getting what it paid for and deserves every bit of it.

posted by forrestv at 09:11 PM on March 21

It is a privilege that some people would sell their soul for -- One difference between Soriano and you or me, Bullpen. He is an All-Star Second Baseman. He doesn't need to sell his soul to play left f-n field for the Nationals.

posted by tselson at 09:49 PM on March 21

And yet they signed Royce Clayton when they already had Cristian Guzman. In Bowden's defense, it is easy to forget that you have Cristian Guzman. "I seem to have misplaced my large mound of dog poop. I should go out and purchase another large mound of dog poop. That will be a good idea." Does Bowden pick up these players because he wants to make the OTHER players on the team look better in comparison? I'm glad the Expos/Nationals got out of Montreal before Bowden came on board. It's quite possible they'd have ended up with negative fans in the stands (ushers and vendors would leave in the middle of the games).

posted by grum@work at 10:45 PM on March 21

What part of this has to do with MLB, the union, and job assignments as a labor relations issue? Remember MLB owns the Nats, and given the example of Loria in Montreal and now in FLA***, it is clearly not above MLB to engage in some pretty shady stuff to take care of business. MLB knows that there's this ongoing problem with players not taking orders from management in an area that has clearly been collectively bargained (i.e., who plays where). BUT - in the past few years, it's clear that there have been many very difficult cases of players 'insisting' on not changing positions. To Selig and the owners, this is a huge problem. How to deal with this? The Braves don't want to force the issue with Chipper, because there's a real owner there with real money and a real chance to win again. Same goes for the rest - except the Nats. So, lickety-split Soriano is a National, which makes NO sense even if you assume (and you'd be smart to assume) that Vidro gets hurt before the end of July. And now MLB can play out its power game against the union and put a star on the disqualified list. The union will then grieve it and the whole thing can play out like any labor relations issue. As far as that goes, if Soriano had a leg to stand on, he'd have heard from his union rep that the rule in almost all job assignment cases is to "work now, grieve later". (*** Loria and Samson are clearly 'fixers' for the league who go into struggling franchises, strip them of any remaining value for a large fee, take the heat from the locals, and move on.)

posted by mikelbyl at 11:34 PM on March 21

drevl: As an outfielder, he'll be an average hitter and not particularly sought after as a free agent. Somehow, his sticking to his guns is an incorrect move? Really good hitters don't let their defensive struggles effect their performance at the plate. A prime example: Soriano himself, who is an All-Star because of his bat, not his glove. He has committed more errors at the 2B position than any other player since his rookie season. Seems you have even less faith in his ability to cope than even he has.

posted by L.N. Smithee at 01:26 AM on March 22

Oh wow, and how do really good hitters accomplish this mental feat? Oh right, by being really good hitters. If you're going to try to convert all of us, step it up from mere tautologies, please.

posted by yerfatma at 05:37 AM on March 22

goddam, that's a great link

posted by Amateur at 07:40 AM on March 22

Smithee, do you have the foggiest idea what this is about? Soriano is a 280 hitter who can hit 30 plus homers. As second baseman go, that is most impressive. As outfielders go, it's pretty average. Soriano's value as a 2nd baseman is tremendous. His value as an outfielder is so-so. He's smart enough to realize this. You, obviously, are not.

posted by drevl at 08:04 AM on March 22

Does Bowden pick up these players because he wants to make the OTHER players on the team look better in comparison? I'm glad the Expos/Nationals got out of Montreal before Bowden came on board. I hear you, man. At least Omar had some form of competence. Hell, the Expos even played for .500 two years in a row back then, with a non-existent budget. Look who I signed to play for the Washington Baseballs! Hilarious as always. Thanks, goddam!

posted by qbert72 at 08:15 AM on March 22

Soriano's value as a 2nd baseman is tremendous. His value as an outfielder is so-so. He's smart enough to realize this. You, obviously, are not. Count me among the dummies. I said this before, but I know how much yerfatma likes a good redundancy from us tautologists who repeat ourselves, so here goes: Moving from 2B to OF doesn't make Soriano an outfielder. It makes him a 2B/OF, which improves his position flexibility, and his value in the market. Teams that want his 40/40 potential in the outfield (which I think is better than the "average" tag everyone keeps hanging on it) are going to be bidding against teams that want him to play 2B (which he could still do). Playing the outfield doesn't detract from but actually expands his marketability. Having said that, it occurs to me after mulling this over that Soriano does have a financial motive for refusing to play the outfield that is so obvious I'm thumping my head. Soriano quite likely wants to force Washington into trading him so he doesn't have to play out his contract year in Yellowstone Park (I mean, RFK Stadium) in the Nationals lineup. 18 HR and 75 RBIs are not going to draw attention like the 30/100 numbers he was likely to put up in Texas. I don't think the outfield has anything to do with it -- this is a simple power play to force Bowden to ship him. Soriano doesn't have a fear of fly balls, he has a fear of sub-10 million dollar contracts. If his plan works, I hope some karmic justice lands him in San Diego. And count me among the hard laughers at goddam's post. That is great.

posted by BullpenPro at 08:55 AM on March 22

Teams that want his 40/40 potential in the outfield (which I think is better than the "average" tag everyone keeps hanging on it) He was #6 among MLB 2B by OPS last year. That would have made him #23 among outfielders. Certainly better than average, but probably not deserving of huge paydays as he ages.

posted by yerfatma at 09:16 AM on March 22

From yerfatma's second link, you can see that Carlos Lee plays left field, has slightly lower numbers than Soriano, and was earning $8M last year. Maybe the premium for a good bat at second base is not as high as we think. That, and Chase Utley is going to break the bank if he keeps it up.

posted by qbert72 at 09:37 AM on March 22

That would have made him #23 among outfielders. Yeah, but among OFs he would have been 3rd in home runs, 7th in stolen bases, and 9th in RBI's. His OPS is hurt by the fact that he has no plate discipline, but he is a bad ball hitter in the vein of a Vladimir Guerrero (Don't get me wrong -- he is no Vlad, just a similar style. I can't believe I am defending this guy -- I can't stand him.) Those numbers get you onto the All-Star teams and get the big contracts in December.

posted by BullpenPro at 09:41 AM on March 22

Moving from 2B to OF doesn't make Soriano an outfielder. It makes him a 2B/OF, which improves his position flexibility, and his value in the market. Usually, but not always, when a player gets moved out of his position it's a sign of deminished capability. That is an image that Soriano would like to delay until after he signs his first free agency deal. Once he signs that long-term, hundred million dollar deal, he will gladly play left at Yankee Stadium. Yesterday, bullpenpro listed a few players who have changed positions during their career. Two that I am very familiar with are two of my favorite Yankees - Mantle and Berra. Is bullpenpro telling me that Mantle's value went UP when he switched to 1st base? Or that Yogi's value went UP when he moved to left? If so, I will gladly "Count him among the dummies" as he suggested above.

posted by drevl at 09:49 AM on March 22

Is bullpenpro telling me that Mantle's value went UP when he switched to 1st base? Or that Yogi's value went UP when he moved to left? Uh, no. I think that was my point. The argument was made that star players rarely take it on the chin and accept a move that benefits the team more than the player. I retorted that Mantle and Berra were among a long list of players who have done just that, making Soriano's obstinance that much more unpalatable. And, if Soriano had kept his trap shut and just moved to the outfield, no one would have blinked. There is no shame in taking a back seat to an incumbent All-Star second baseman like Jose Vidro. It's not like they were deferring to Miguel Cairo. And nobody has ever suggested that Soriano's skills have "diminished." He is, was, and probably will always be a terrible second baseman. You can't have diminishing skills where you didn't have any skills to begin with.

posted by BullpenPro at 09:59 AM on March 22

BP, nicely put. You just converted me. I now think it will be good for Soriano to play left this year. That way, he'll have one year of practice there before he signs to play left for the Yanks.

posted by drevl at 10:09 AM on March 22

incumbent All-Star second baseman like Jose Vidro. Speaking of diminished skills, Vidro is hardly an all-star anymore.

posted by tron7 at 10:11 AM on March 22

This just in, Soriano to play left field today.

posted by tron7 at 10:19 AM on March 22

Speaking of diminished skills, Vidro is hardly an all-star anymore. I hope that is the prevailing theory among the other owners when my fantasy league draft rolls around.

posted by BullpenPro at 10:24 AM on March 22

I hope that is the prevailing theory among the other owners when my fantasy league draft rolls around. Make sure you get a good backup.

posted by tron7 at 10:36 AM on March 22

Soriano, who on Monday refused to take the field for a game against the Dodgers at Space Coast Stadium in Viera, Fla., told MLB.com on Tuesday that he would think it over about playing and he would talk it over with his agent and wife. Soriano: I really think I should play left field. I just like playing baseball, and I think I'd be pretty good. Agent: Don't you fucking cave on me! If you give in now, you'll be costing me at least $100,000 in agent fees on your next contract! Wife: I didn't marry some pansy-ass outfielder who just stands around for hours on end. I married a dynamic second baseman. If you switch, you can consider yourself "cut off"! Soriano: But if I don't play, I don't get paid a penny. None of us will get any money. No agent fees, no fur coats, nothing. Agent: Uhh... Wife: Umm...okay, I guess it's fine. Agent: Yah, I guess so. But wait a day and make it look like it was a real struggle but you are "doing it for the team".

posted by grum@work at 11:11 AM on March 22

^ SportsFilter. The drinks are expensive, but the comedy is frrrree.

posted by BullpenPro at 11:27 AM on March 22

I didn't marry some pansy-ass outfielder who just stands around for hours on end. Man, Rachel gave me the same line back in grade eight. I quit little league soon afterwards.

posted by DrJohnEvans at 11:46 AM on March 22

Man, Rachel gave me the same line back in grade eight. I quit little league soon afterwards. Which begs the question: what were you doing playing Little League when you were in the eighth grade?

posted by BullpenPro at 11:50 AM on March 22

Bp, I think he was pitching for the Bronx in the LLWS. (DrJohn a.k.a. Danny Almonte)

posted by tselson at 12:11 PM on March 22

There is no chance that the Yankees sign him to play left - they resigned Matsui this offseason, in what might be the least-reported news in all of baseball. (Noone seems to have noticed).

posted by Bernreuther at 12:18 PM on March 22

Which begs the question: what were you doing playing Little League when you were in the eighth grade? Ever hear of Doogie Howser, punk? Where do you think they got the inspiration? Look no further than DrJohn.

posted by jerseygirl at 12:22 PM on March 22

Begging the question.

posted by yerfatma at 12:50 PM on March 22

they resigned Matsui this offseason, in what might be the least-reported news in all of baseball. From this year's Baseball Prospectus:

After the season, Matsui got a four-year, $52 million deal - a deal worthy of one of the top players in the game. Unfortunately, he isn't one; he's in the second tier, and his greatest asset isn't his bat, it's his durability. The Yankees could have cause to regret the contract's length before it's done. Matsui's skill set - some average, some power, some patience, some defense, but not an excess of any of them - is such that a small decline in any department is going to call the whole package into question. Matsui's RBI totals are the byproduct of the sheer number of runners he sees: he batted with 519 runners on base, most in the majors, and he saw the third-most runners in both 2003 and 2004.
Zing!

posted by qbert72 at 12:55 PM on March 22

<derail magnitude="total"> Now I'm trying to remember how the Windsor North Little League was set up. Age 7: T-ball Ages 8–9: Minor house league Ages 10–11: Major house league Age 12: Junior interleague team Age 13: Senior interleague team Age 14: DrJohnEvans quits because he was never really all that good (Googling for curiousity: Holy crap! Turns out we won the 1977 provincial championship—and were named the International Order Of Goats?!) </derail>

posted by DrJohnEvans at 01:09 PM on March 22

Begging the question. That's a picky one. If people use it enough, it becomes correct. Such as using the phrase, "It's me." Congrats, Dr., you must be very proud. It's like winning all over again!

posted by bperk at 01:13 PM on March 22

That's a picky one. If people use it enough, it becomes correct. Such as using the phrase, "It's me." That's one school of thought, Descriptivism. I go back and forth between the two, but the idea that usage creates meaning is a broken one; see DFW for a better defense of why than I could ever give (just skip the intro graf, which is supposed to recreate the look of the print article's lead in).

posted by yerfatma at 01:24 PM on March 22

Begging the question. I am well aware of that definition. However, the fact that this expression exists in logic does not necessarily preclude the use of these three words in this succession to mean something else. In this case, the phrase says the same thing as "Which brings forth a pressing desire to make the following inquiry." Only it's shorter and less tedious.

posted by BullpenPro at 01:26 PM on March 22

On review: after briefly skimming your link, yerfatma, I stand by my comment. I have not changed the meaning of any of the individual words to get my point across. I am not using the expression in a colloquial fashion, I intend for the words to mean what they say.

posted by BullpenPro at 01:37 PM on March 22

Whatever happened to the good ol' "I gotta ask yer"?

posted by DrJohnEvans at 01:38 PM on March 22

Whatever happened to the good ol' "I gotta ask yer"? Smart aleck. If I had just revealed that I may have inadvertently belonged to an "International Order of Goats," I think I might stand over in the corner and not draw too much attention to myself. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

posted by BullpenPro at 01:46 PM on March 22

That's one school of thought, Descriptivism. I go back and forth between the two dunderhead/not dunderhead, definitely dunderhead, well, maybe not.

posted by tselson at 02:17 PM on March 22

Did anybody mention Barry Bonds in this thread? Just me? AMAZING!!

posted by Desert Dog at 02:20 PM on March 22

From this year's Baseball Prospectus: DAMN YOU! DAMN YOU TO HELL!!! *CURLS BACK INTO FETAL POSITION AND SUCKS ON THUMB*

posted by wingnut4life at 02:28 PM on March 22

Whatever happened to the good ol' "I gotta ask yer"? And the old standby "Sup wit 'dat?" or perhaps "WTF?"

posted by jerseygirl at 02:36 PM on March 22

We're apparently replacing them with existing phrases that have other meanings. In the interest of clarity. DOUBLE++GOOD

posted by yerfatma at 03:21 PM on March 22

Having read nary a word of this thread......SELL FISH!!!

posted by garfield at 03:28 PM on March 22

We're apparently replacing them with existing phrases that have other meanings. In the interest of clarity. By "replacing," do you mean that we are moving them back to their former place, or that something new is being put in their place as a substitute? You know, just in the interest of clarity.

posted by BullpenPro at 03:49 PM on March 22

Grum@work you must be a psychic because Soriano has agreed to play outfield.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 04:03 PM on March 22

Re: Yerfatma's link It begs the question ... who gives a fuck?

posted by wfrazerjr at 04:06 PM on March 22

It begs the question ... who gives a fuck? Just say, "it begs FOR the question" and everything will be fine. Your gramatical reputation will be saved! Which begs for the question, is grammar a sport?

posted by tselson at 04:32 PM on March 22

It begs the question ... who gives a fuck? That's a perfectly acceptable position, but one that leaves you little room to complain the next time we have a member join whose comments look like the IMs of an overwrought 12 year-old bulimic.

posted by yerfatma at 04:49 PM on March 22

I think there's a bit of a difference between "it begs the question" and "even i no tha reel trooth about TO", but point taken.

posted by wfrazerjr at 05:31 PM on March 22

In breaking news, Washington Nationals second baseman Alfonso Soriano has finally agreed to a move to the outfield after clarifying his concerns. Soriano will play left field everywhere except San Francisco, where he said he fears being stuck by discarded syringes.

posted by wfrazerjr at 05:38 PM on March 22

So its news that he won't play but isn't worth a post now that he's changed his mind and will play left field?

posted by fenriq at 06:47 PM on March 22

So its news that he won't play but isn't worth a post now that he's changed his mind and will play left field? Fenriq, we try to keep updates to stories in the original thread, especially when the update is just a day or two later. If we don't it can lead to 4 threads on the same story as it develops. No big deal. I deleted one of my own post yesterday ;)

posted by justgary at 01:22 AM on March 23

drevl: Smithee, do you have the foggiest idea what this is about? Soriano is a 280 hitter who can hit 30 plus homers. As second baseman go, that is most impressive. As outfielders go, it's pretty average. Soriano's value as a 2nd baseman is tremendous. His value as an outfielder is so-so. He's smart enough to realize this. You, obviously, are not. Uh huh. In fact, Soriano's value as a 2nd baseman is SO frigging "tremendous," the Nationals traded for him even though they've got a .300 hitter at 2B who is a defensive standout in Jose Vidro. OOPS! The Nats don't want Soriano to play 2B, they want him in the outfield. Why? Because frankly, he sucks as an infielder. The Yankees know that, the Rangers know it, the Nationals know it, and so does the rest of the league. To wit: In 1999, The Yankees Chuck Knoblauch committed 26 errors. Knoblauch booted 15 in 2000. In 2001, tapped Soriano to replace Knoblauch at 2B, and put Knoblauch in right field. What an improvement Soriano was defensively; he only had four MORE errors in the 2001 campaign. 'But he's a kid, he'll learn the position, he'll get better.' OOPS! 23 errors in 2002. But he showed progress in 2003, committing 19 errors again, just like in 2001. And away from the plate, things didn't get better with a change of scenery in Arlington. If Soriano has a lick of sense, he will, to paraphrase Clint Eastwood, be a man and learn his limitations. Gary Sheffield, who admitted that he was so stung by criticism of his horrendous play at shortstop in his first couple of seasons in Milwaukee he purposely committed errors out of spite, played himself out of the infield for the last time in 1993. But instead of sulking, he sucked it up and became an All-Star outfielder. Soriano the second baseman's value is "tremendous?" Get real. Like I said, the league knows his glove's not good enough to be an starting infielder, and deep down, Soriano knows it too. IMHO, staying in the dugout rather than going into left field was a last act of desperation to maintain his self-image as a Major League second bagger. Well, he just ain't. And by earning his money, shutting his mouth, and taking his new position, he's taken the first step toward maturity -- or as close to that as a young man being paid eight figures to play a boy's game can get.

posted by L.N. Smithee at 10:14 PM on March 23

justgary, gotcha, different conventions from all the different 'Filters. Thanks for the explanation.

posted by fenriq at 02:46 AM on March 24

BP, nicely put. You just converted me. I now think it will be good for Soriano to play left this year. That way, he'll have one year of practice there before he signs to play left for the Yanks. posted by drevl at 10:09 AM CST on March 22 smithee, you're about a day and a half late with your lecture. I was converted by bullpenpro yesterday.

posted by drevl at 08:07 AM on March 24

Hi!

posted by 7 at 12:54 PM on March 27

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