FanDuel - WFBC

January 25, 2006

Meet the new boss ... same as the old boss: The Boston Red Sox proudly announce their new general manager to be ... Theo Epstein. Is this the strangest hiring/rehiring in your sports recollection? And will Theo (sans apesuit) be able to prop up the possible collapse of the Coco Crisp/Guillermo Mota trade?

posted by wfrazerjr to baseball at 10:20 AM - 54 comments

Basically Theo got a 90 day vacation! I am glad to see him back. I think he is a good fit for the Red Sox!

posted by daddisamm at 10:26 AM on January 25

I think the Mota issue is a posturing move. They better not give them Manny DelCarmen too.

posted by jerseygirl at 10:45 AM on January 25

Good move for them, they should never have let him leave, but I predict this will end badly. "Theo's back. That's all I care about," pitcher Curt Schilling said Tuesday morning in a radio interview transcribed on www.boston.com. "That's all any of the players care about. I would like to think that he's in more of a situation that he wanted when he left." With the inmates like Schilling running the asylum, John Henry's gonna need every hammer he can get. Nothing's changed since the days of Tom Yawkey with the Keystone Komedy that the Red Sox front office has always been.

posted by sfts2 at 10:58 AM on January 25

Fraze, Great "The Who" Lyric quote. We can NEVER have too many lyric quotes from The Who. Chandler

posted by Wrigley South at 11:03 AM on January 25

Nothing's changed since the days of Tom Yawkey with the Keystone Komedy that the Red Sox front office has always been. Except for three straight playoff appearances and a world series victory, yep, nothing's changed.

posted by justgary at 11:28 AM on January 25

only the greatest rock n roll band of all time T H E W H O for all WHO news... petetownshend.com

posted by no band waggon at 12:00 PM on January 25

Nothing's changed since the days of Tom Yawkey with the Keystone Komedy that the Red Sox front office has always been. Absolutely korrect. Except for everything that has. The lack of racism, the Series wins, the consistent decent performance, the lack of favoritism . . . it must be a Curse that the ownership stays the same even when it changes.

posted by yerfatma at 12:09 PM on January 25

I am relieved to see him back, but this whole situation seems a bit foreboding to me. I have a bad feeling that this will not be a playoff year for the Red Sox. We shall see.

posted by Joey Michaels at 12:34 PM on January 25

Two notes: * Thank you for not blasting me for getting closer to repeating another FPP from 1/24. I figured that Epstein being given back exactly the same job he had before was pretty big and pretty weird news, and that there are enough of you Sox lovers to make it worthwhile; and * I'm a pinball wizard, and yes, there is a twist. I'm a pinball wizard ... but I have wrists like ham hocks. As for the news, I'm glad to see Theo back. I was afraid you people would be pulling a lemming off the new bridge.

posted by wfrazerjr at 01:01 PM on January 25

That bridge is awesome. It looks good in the pictures but a thousand times better in person. I'm also glad Theo is back. Though I wonder if whatever made him leave in a gorrilla suit got resolved and how.

posted by ProSam at 01:55 PM on January 25

A step FORWARD for Red Sox Nation.

posted by Joe88 at 02:01 PM on January 25

hey theo... "and the beards have all grown longer overnight!" looks like your gonna have to start from scatch....

posted by no band waggon at 02:29 PM on January 25

yerfatma, the lack of racism...? lack of favortism? what? The series wins? - didn't you mean the Series WIN. Consistent decent performances...If thats the bar that's set for excellence, I'm thankful they are in the AL East. Wow - three straight playoff appearances. Uh, how about: Getting comepletely embarassed by the Yankees with Arod, the lunacy of firing Grady Little because 'he left Pedro in too long', signing Manny (I know that is arguable), letting Pedro go...to the Mets, no less, letting Johnny Damon go to a same division rival without replacing him. Now, I know that none of these types of bad decisions are neccesarily unique to the Red Sox, and I am sure you can argue each and every one of them. I guess my question is, is it your position that the Red Sox have a long history of front office and ownership excellence? Or is it more accurate to say that the Epstein regime has had some promising but short-lived success, which Luchinno/Henry then blew up, and have now resusitated, but will probably end badly, given the both the asst GM and PLayer Personell Director have both been demoted to make room for him? Is this a recipe for organizational success in your view? My position is this: Historically, the Sox have certainly had much more turmoil and lunacy in their front office than average. My opinion only. Theo brought a level of success and reasonable decision making to the table for 2 years. Not doing what it took to keep Theo happy was more bad management, and now bringing him back, after appointing his successors is well, we'll have to wait and see. I'm wondering if your fandom is overcoming your baseball sense. Almost 90 years without a championship says pretty much all that needs to be said about the history of the Sox front office.

posted by sfts2 at 03:41 PM on January 25

Who lyrics to describe Sox staff this year: Inside Outside Leave me alone Inside Outside Nowhere is home. And on the Series chances for this years Nation: Every year is the same, and I feel it again. Losers, no chance to win Leaves start falling, come down is calling, Loneliness starts sinkin' in

posted by sfts2 at 03:57 PM on January 25

the lack of racism...? lack of favortism? what? "What?" you say? Don't say it's the same as the Tom Yawkey days if you don't know what the Tom Yawkey days were about. the lunacy of firing Grady Little because 'he left Pedro in too long', and the hiring of Francona who in his first year won the World Series with the team. signing Manny And then if they didn't sign him, your argument would be "Letting the Yankees get Manny Ramirez!" He's a pain, he has OCD, he doesn't know if he wants to be traded, stay or have mustard on his sandwich at any given moment, but the team is infinitely better with Ramirez on it, than they are without. Letting Pedro go...to the Mets to the Mets no less No less what? If I recall, the Mets went on a bit of a Blue Jays spending spree last year, no? They wanted to throw a huge long contract at him. Yeah, he's a great pitcher, but he has a health history. Because the Red Sox erred on the side of caution, because they didn't throw a ton of money after him, they're stupid? letting Johnny Damon go to a same division rival without replacing him. Nearly the same argument as Pedro. It sucked to see him go, but if the Red Sox paid the what NYY paid Damon, I'd be royally pissed... especially when Coco Crisp is younger, has put up similar numbers and is a hell of a lot cheaper. You retain talent as much as you humanly can and when it makes sense for the organization. You don't throw good money after big names just to save face. .but will probably end badly, given the both the asst GM and PLayer Personell Director have both been demoted to make room for him? Is this a recipe for organizational success in your view? Every interview Theo and Lucchino jointly did today made it abundantly clear that Theo never left. From the Josh Beckett trade to the Loretta trade, Jed Hoyer and Ben Cherington were pretty much clearing everything with Theo before doing it. Apparently, they stepped up and volunteered to be the GM because there was a need to have a body warming the seat during the offseason. Further, I don't know how many times in the last 10 weeks it was speculated that Epstein was coming back because everyone knew he was still involved and the Lucchino party line was "the light is on for him" - Even at the press conference announcing the two new co-GMs. So putting that out there, wouldn't you presume if you were Jed Hoyer and Ben Cherington, that you knew you weren't long for your new job titles? Who lyrics to describe Sox staff this year: Inside Outside Leave me alone Inside Outside Nowhere is home. And on the Series chances for this years Nation: Every year is the same, and I feel it again. Losers, no chance to win Leaves start falling, come down is calling, Loneliness starts sinkin' in I'm wondering if your hellbent need to slam the Red Sox is clouding your baseball sense. Also, Google Tom Yawkey. It's free. Promise. He stands as one of the most infamous, obnoxious racists and bigots in the game of baseball. That sure clear up your initial queries so you can "discuss" baseball better... unless you just want to keep being a dickhead.

posted by jerseygirl at 04:15 PM on January 25

jerseygirl Don't be an asshat. I'm not going to argue these things that I already said were just my opinion and were ARGUABLE. I guess the fact that the ownership was a an obnoxious racist bolsters the argument that the front office hasn't been challenged for much of its history. (3 AL flags during Yawkey's tenure 33-76) Why not try to address my question rationally rather than blathering on so. Is it your opinion that the Sox have been in the upper echelon of front office from 1976 to now? In my opinion, they haven't. Same with your statement as to how its so obvious that Theo was coming back when he just resigned 2 months before. This is most obviously obvious. It happens all the time, right? And my question about racism and favortism was not because I don't know Yawkey, but rather the completely unfounded and out of context assertion that things were different now. Lastly, you need a lesson in manners, yours are poor.

posted by sfts2 at 04:45 PM on January 25

Yeah letting Pedro go was a huge mistake. So how many rings does he own again?

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 05:05 PM on January 25

Jibba jabba! No seriously, I don't even know what the hell you're saying anymore. I read it twice and the person you called an asshat needs manners and... and all I kept seeing was "OBVIOUSLY OBVIOUS!" I'll be off reading Amy Vanderbilt if you need me.

posted by jerseygirl at 05:14 PM on January 25

Macha, Ken Macha. An even shorter turnaround time and even less reason for the return.

posted by billsaysthis at 05:31 PM on January 25

Getting comepletely embarassed by the Yankees with Arod, the lunacy of firing Grady Little because 'he left Pedro in too long', signing Manny (I know that is arguable), letting Pedro go...to the Mets, no less, letting Johnny Damon go to a same division rival without replacing him. Now, I know that none of these types of bad decisions are neccesarily unique to the Red Sox, and I am sure you can argue each and every one of them. Well of course we could argue every one of them. You just threw everything against the wall and hoped something stuck. Arod? That was a fuck up, although he hasn't exactly resulted in any rings for the yankees so far. Firing Grady? I won't argue the pedro call. I thought it was awful. But regardless, the next year they win the series and you actually think this was a bad move by the front office? Every team should be so lucky. Signing Manny? Possible future hall of famer and amazing numbers. Without him they're still waiting for a series win. Letting pedro go? If his arm is still attached to his body in a couple of years you might be right. To say after one season it was a mistake ignores the reasons pedro wasn't signed. Damon? They might be replacing him now, and only the future will tell if it works out for the yankees. But when your payroll is twice any other teams, you can take those chances. Look, no doubt the off season has been strange for the sox, but you stated that nothing has changed since yawkey and when called upon it you really have no answer except to point at every major decision over the last three years. That's three years that resulted in three playoff appearances, one series win, and coming within two innings from 2 series appearances. Good move for them, they should never have let him leave, but I predict this will end badly. So you think it will end badly, but it's a good move? If it's gonna end badly, wouldn't that be a bad move? I'm wondering if your fandom is overcoming your baseball sense. Almost 90 years without a championship says pretty much all that needs to be said about the history of the Sox front office. Oh please. If you knew ANYTHING about baseball you would know that the 95-05 Yankees for the most part are some of the most respected players out there, curiously devoid of a-holes and slackers. When's the last time you saw a Yank stand around and study a HR like ManRam or Bonds. Doesn't happen. They are pros and classy players, as classy as any in the league and more. Any point you make can be applied to most other teams to a MUCH greater extent. Get a clue, ask ANYONE in MLB what they think of the Club House demeanor and professionalism of the Yankees of the last 10 years. Sound familiar? You're a yankees fan, and not the good kind. It's ok to hate the red sox, but just don't act like you're coming from an unbiased viewpoint, and especially don't accuse others of being blinded by fandom.

posted by justgary at 05:46 PM on January 25

Mighty Theo at the Helm By Gary St. Lawrence, ©2006 (With pulchritudous thanks and acknowledgment to Ernest L. Thayer, ©1888) The outlook had been dismal for the Beantown club that year, The team let go of Theo, with politics the reason clear. And then when Hoyer and Cherington took his place, and Lajoie as well, A pall-like silence struck the Nation, a muttered gasp, "Oh hell!" A straggling few still weathered through winter's dark unrest. The rest clung to that hope which springs eternal in the human breast. They thought, "if only Theo could but get another shot. We'd win another Series, with Theo back in the top spot." But John Henry is no novice, perhaps a fool but not a fake; and the Mighty Theo made it all look like such a piece of cake. So upon that fateful Halloween, in gorilla-suit was spurned; there seemed no chance at all we had of getting Theo to return. But Mike Dee worked several angles, with Werner at his side. And Henry, the oft-despised, had to go along for the ride. After ten long weeks of suffering, we all saw what transpired, With a month before Spring Training, Mighty Theo had been rehired. From five states surrounding Fenway, there rose a lusty yell; it rumbled through the burrows; New Yorkers writhed in Hell; it pounded through the mountains and recoiled in the air; for Theo, mighty Theo, was returning to the chair. There was ease in Theo's manner as he stepped into his place, there was pride in Theo's bearing and a smile lit Theo's face. And when, responding to the cheers, he deftly approached the mike, Not a NESN fan would wonder what the oh-six season would be like. Twelve million eyes were on him via cable, air and dish. Five million fans were giddy, for they'd finally got their wish. Then, while Lucchino gnashed and cursed and cried, defiance flashed in Theo's eye, a smile curled Theo's lip. And now the Beantown papers, known for their bitter charl, had to concede that Theo restored the inspired days of Carl. About the fledgling manager, the news like wildfire spread -- "They left the light on," said Casey. "Boston used its head." From Maine to Arizona, there went up a muffled roar, like the beating of the storm waves on a stern and distant shore. "Beat the evil empire!" shouted folks from near and far, and it's oh so very possible again, since Theo'd set the bar. With a smile of champion charity, great Theo's visage showed; he stilled the negotiation tumult, with confidence he strode. He signaled to the partners, once more he'd be in charge. And the knew they must approve it, his record was that large. "Hail!" cheered ESPN viewers, and SportsTalk echoed "Hail!" And one scornful look from Pesky set the Boston papers pale. Fans on S.O.S.H.-dot-com penned "Yes!" and "Sweet!" and "Hooray!"; for they knew that Theo wouldn't let another World Series slip away. With Damon gone to haircut row, and Pedro now a Met; With talk of Clemens coming back, and Arroyo now a vet; With Varitek wearing that well-deserved "C", and Papi's ever-smile, the return of "that kid from Little League" would set the Sox in style. So, somewhere in this troubled land the sun is shining bright. The band is playing "Tessie", and New England hearts are light. And Sox fans all are laughing, while Yankees fans talk smack; for there is such joy in Beantown - mighty Theo Epstein's back.

posted by Saint714 at 07:28 PM on January 25

"Is this the strangest hiring/rehiring in your sports recollection?" The ghost of Billy Martin says no.

posted by mr_crash_davis at 08:00 PM on January 25

justgary and jerseygirl, Lighten up, I was joking to a large extent with my first comments. The Sox are my second favorite team in pro baseball, yes the Yankees are first. I am not a pro baseball fan at really at all. I live 45 minutes from Yankee stadium and go to maybe 1 game every two years. I'd rather watch minor league ball or college ball or high school or AAU or even little league. Usually, I am too busy coaching baseball and scouting players for my summer team to worry about being a pro ball 'fan.' Bringing Theo back is a good baseball move. I wouldn't expect any team to not do so if faced with the choices that the Sox were. That doesn't mean that I cannot think that it will probably end badly due to politics. What part of this is hard to understand? I also think that firing Grady Little was the most pathetic case of fan-driven scapegoating that I have ever seen in professional sports, outside the the Bill Buckner episode. And yeah, the fact that they then brought in Francona worked out. But they didn't fire him to bring in a new manager. They fired him because he made the RIGHT baseball move, and it didn't work. I guess you think that makes it a good decision. I disagree. One of the things that sports has taught me is that sometimes bad decisions have good consequences and vice versa. I bet when your kids play ball and they hit a high and away 3-0 pitch over the fence you tell them 'great job.' gary, why don't you find some evidence to refute my contention that the 95-05 Yankees organization was filled with players that play the right way. I am pretty confident, could find 20 people in the next two days, all involved with either pro or college ball, or coaches who would agree with this sentiment. Can you find one, even a cheesy blog that contends otherwise. If you think that my statement is the blind raving of a passionate fan, it should be easy. I actually expect you should be able to find someone who disagrees. Extra points if they actually know anything or have any baseball credentials. I am so broken by the fact that you don't think I am the good kind of Yankee fan. This is just heart wrenching. BTW, I'm typing this from a winter baseball workout for hi-potential high school baseball players that I am involved with. What are you doing now? Watching the game? You two are something, substituting personal attacks and opinions for reasoned knowledgeable (or at least civil) discourse because someone might like a different team than you. Grow up.

posted by sfts2 at 08:52 PM on January 25

Lighten up You keep saying this. You don't need to. I'm not taking anything you said seriously. They fired him because he made the RIGHT baseball move, and it didn't work. It was the wrong move. Anyone who followed pedro in his later years knows that at 100 pitches he loses it. He came into the last inning ate 100 pitches. If you bring him out that inning you have to be prepared to take him out. Grady had many chances and didn't. You might want to check out the boston bullpen's era for that playoff series. They were lights out. You're so big on "reasoned knowledgeable" discourse, I promise you that most so called experts would also disagree with you on pedro. But again, this really has nothing to do with the topic. gary, why don't you find some evidence to refute my contention that the 95-05 Yankees organization was filled with players that play the right way. Why? Again, it has nothing to do with this thread. I simply remembered your hardon for the yankee team from that previous thread. The yankees are built in god's image and boston hasn't changed since tom yawkey. That's a black and white world you got there. It's a safe bet, just ask arod. BTW, I'm typing this from a winter baseball workout for hi-potential high school baseball players that I am involved with. What are you doing now? Watching the game? Jesus, this gets so old. Look, your opinion here is worth no more or less than mine. You're actually pulling out "I work with gifted high schoolers" as something to back up your argument? Do I need to pull out my resume now to prove to you I know what I'm talking about? I'm glad you enjoy your work with the kids. I've played with major league players, so forgive me if it means nothing to me. See, I feel dirty even saying that, but I'm got to have as much cred as you (as the kids say). I bet when your kids play ball and they hit a high and away 3-0 pitch over the fence you tell them 'great job.' If they're looking high and away, are not told to take, and can handle the high and away pitch, yep. great job. You two are something, substituting personal attacks and opinions for reasoned knowledgeable (or at least civil) discourse because someone might like a different team than you. You called jerseygirl an asshat, told her she was blathering, and her manners were poor. I took each of your assertions and gave my (uninformed) opinion. I did call you a "bad yankee fan", and if you were offended, I take it back. I'm just an insult machine sometimes. Grow up. More reasoned debate. (by the way, by bad yankee fan I did not mean it as a character flaw. I simply mean that some yankee/redsox fans can discuss their teams almost without bias. You're just not one of them)

posted by justgary at 09:24 PM on January 25

" ... the 95-05 Yankees for the most part are some of the most respected players out there, curiously devoid of a-holes and slackers. When's the last time you saw a Yank stand around and study a HR like ManRam or Bonds. Doesn't happen. They are pros and classy players, as classy as any in the league and more." Uh ... yeah. The way A-Rod slapped that ball out of Arroyo's glove was done with impeccable class. The way he stood around crying victim and pretending to be offended when he was called on his appalling display of poor sportsmanship and play-interference was done with class. The way he got in Varitek's face over a blatantly accurate umpire call was done with class. And then there was that utterly classy move of beating up a groundskeeper and kicking him in the back when he was down on the ground. Uber-classy, that one was. " ... curiously devoid of a-holes?" Pardon me, but it's my considered opinion that Alex Rodriguez is the king of a-holenia. And Yankees fans define their team by him and Jeter (who I'll grant you, has legitimate class compared to A-hole-Rod's faux-class). And just look at all the WS rings A-Rod has been personally responsible for. Staggering.

posted by Saint714 at 11:02 PM on January 25

Jibba jabba! No seriously, I don't even know what the hell you're saying anymore. I read it twice and the person you called an asshat needs manners and... and all I kept seeing was "OBVIOUSLY OBVIOUS!" I'll be off reading Amy Vanderbilt if you need me. Hilarious. by the way, by bad yankee fan I did not mean it as a character flaw Really? And if I called you a bad Red Sox fan, you wouldn't react as though it was a comment on your character? Anyone who is contributing to this sports-geek site probably holds their own fandom in high regard, and would rather hear mother-insults than have someone dress down the way they, uh, fan. I know I would. But I'm a pretty big sports-geek. And Yankees fans define their team by him and Jeter I don't know a single Yankees fan who defines the team with A-Rod in any positive way. Your experience may be different, but it seems to me that Yankees fans are still on the fence about whether A-Rod has earned the stripes on his back, MVP or not. You only have to listen to NY talk radio for three minutes to hear that. Anyone who claims the Yankees in '05 were classy is not paying attention. I respect Giambi's approach to the steroids debacle, but cheaters have to come a long way back to get the title of "classy." Same goes with Sheffield, who also cried a lot about the contract he negotiated himself. The engine of Randy Johnson's plane was still warm before he was smacking cameramen, then he refused to pitch to the club's incumbent All-Star catcher. There ARE plenty of classy players on that club, but if you're going to take them as a group -- not all that classy. It's an insipid argument to make about a professional baseball team in any case. Finally, Saint714, no one has given you your due for that poem. If you are, in fact, the author, well done.

posted by BullpenPro at 11:51 PM on January 25

I am, in fact, the author of "Mighty Theo at the Helm." Wrote it the morning that the "pending announcement" was announced. Again, have to give proper respects and credits to Doctor Thayer for the original. Living in Arizona, the day that the Randy Johnson trade was announced, I said to my dad, "The first time he pulls that prima-dona 'too good for the fans' routine, New Yorkers will crucify him. His slap-the-cameraman nonsense was met with far more patience and acceptance than I expected. As for Giambi, I can't give him too much credit because he only "came clean" after serious and lengthy prodding from his attorneys who convinced him that the authorities had him red-handed in the steroid soup, and that his achievements weren't nearly measurable enough to withstand the media and fan storm if he followed the path of so many of his contemporaries and lied his ass off and denied the allegations. It's probably been said here many times before, but I FIRMLY believe that the home run record should inarguably and singly be returned to Roger Maris. NOBODY has broken 61 au natural, and NOBODY should be given artificially manipulated credit for having done so. Did anyone see Maguire at his Hall of Fame induction? 70 pounds lighter and looking extremely Barney Fife-ish. Yet we're supposed to believe he wasn't injecting? In the words of Richard Pryor, "Niggah, PLEASE!" And I'd have to use words like scumbag, coward, liar, pampered priss and rectal cavity to begin approaching my opinion of A-hole-Rod. What I'm waiting for is to see how red the fans' glare is in Boston if Rocket returns.

posted by Saint714 at 12:39 AM on January 26

oh good the N word got dropped again. Maybe we should... oh I don't know... not use that word. Deal? Ok two amusing things in the jibba jabba... 1. BTW, I'm typing this from a winter baseball workout for hi-potential high school baseball players that I am involved with. What are you doing now? Watching the game? 2. Grow up. The best part? I didn't even know you were a Yankee fan. I just thought you were a regular ill-informed rambling nutter. Ahhhh Christ, that's good stuff.

posted by jerseygirl at 04:51 AM on January 26

I'm typing this from a winter baseball workout for hi-potential high school baseball players that I am involved with. What are you doing now? Watching the game? Working at a real job. Which is to say, "Decide who you are on this board." If you want to bring it like that, do it all the time. This schizo routine where you say something rude, get it back in spades and then act like Queen of the May is already old.

posted by yerfatma at 06:31 AM on January 26

Whatever. I understand about the 100 pitches, with Pedro thing, in my opinion, you go with your best in that situation. I know its arguable, BUT the point was did Grady Little deserve to be fired for it. IN MY OPINION, no. Has the Red Sox front office performed in an above average manner over the last 40+ years? IN MY OPINION, no. They have done a decent job getting players, but it seems things that don't happen elsewhere, happen there, like the Epstein deal. I think the the lack of WS titles provides some evidence of that. A reasoned discussion about the main premise - that the Sox Front Office is/is not a bastion of excellence - has not been attempted by either jerseygirl or justgary. I'm very sorry that you disagree so vehemently and feel so strongly that you have to personally insult people who feel differently than you. I feel very uncomfortable with having these kind of discussions in a public forum. I am sure that most people find it either vaguely entertaining in a car wreck type of way, or completly stupid, pointless, and boring, and I apologize to those that get subjected to it. I'm happy to provide my personal email if you want to continue offline. Just let me know. To those who disagree with my past statement and point to Arod or Giambi to back it up...fine. Go back and read what I wrote. "the 95-05 Yankees for the most part are some of the most respected players out there, curiously devoid of a-holes and slackers" I did not say completely devoid, and I said "for the most part some of the" If you disagree with the substance of my comment, thats great, feel free to refute it. Feel free to hurl personal insults, if that is your style. Otherwise, taking carefully selected parts of a statement is a well-known logical fallacy, and proves nothing. justgary, if you think that its a question of 'can you handle the high and away pitch' then you know very little about baseball or at least hitting one. Finally, it was a GREAT poem and did deserve to be the subject of this thread rather than this stupidness.

posted by sfts2 at 08:26 AM on January 26

Schizo seems to sum it up well.

posted by jerseygirl at 08:39 AM on January 26

I did not say completely devoid I know I'm getting into semantics here, but to me the word "devoid" does not leave any gray area, in the way a word like "lacking" would. To me, your argument sounds a little like you are distinguishing between saying "curiously pregnant" and "completely pregnant." Devoid means a completely empty set, not a "for the most part" empty set. justgary, if you think that its a question of 'can you handle the high and away pitch' then you know very little about baseball or at least hitting one. I really don't think you are making an argument for an empirically correct strategy. I believe that is open to subjective interpretation -- when I was playing, if the count was 3-0 and you weren't given the take sign you had the freedom to swing, but you had better hit something hard -- not necessarily over the fence, but put a good swing on it -- or you were going to get an earful on the bench. That was regardless of the pitch location (though you were going to get abused two-fold if you swung at ball four and tapped it back to the mound). I don't mean to jump to justgary's defense -- he is certainly qualified to do that himself -- but my suspicion is that he knows more about hitting a baseball than you want to give him credit for. I am also not a big fan of the personal attacks this thread has engendered -- I believe most people here would like to think they can express their opinions in this forum without being called a dickhead or an asshat. I WOULD like to draw out more about justgary's experience with MLers, even if he needs a shower afterwards. I just hope he wasn't referring to a fantasy camp.

posted by BullpenPro at 09:02 AM on January 26

I believe most people here would like to think they can express their opinions in this forum without being called a dickhead or an asshat. I think the lesson here is don't be a dickhead, and then no asshats have to call you out on it.

posted by jerseygirl at 09:20 AM on January 26

I think the lesson here is don't be a dickhead, and then no asshats have to call you out on it. Now, see, that's just wrong. You asked that people stop using the "N" word -- and I wholly support and endorse that position -- but if someone grabbed that and started dropping it on you just to piss you off it would, well, probably piss you off. I suggest that I oppose the personal attacks, and you, in essence, used that comment to get in one more, albeit subtler, personal attack. I think the kids call that a flagrant dis.

posted by BullpenPro at 09:36 AM on January 26

No, Bullpen Pro. As the kids say, "Don't go there." You're seemingly educated, so I know you know the full historical and current significance of using the N word as a slur towards someone. I am confident you are well aware of the history of that word. It's miles and miles away from calling an arbitrary , argumentative, taunting person a jerk, a bonehead, a moron, an idiot, a dickhead. No one ever had "dickhead!" screamed at them as they were hung from a tree, beaten with stones, or had a cross set afire on their front lawn. Dickhead was not devised to keep a race of people down. I asked people to stop using the N word because we've very recently had a nice little roundabout on this site being accused of being racist, thinking racist, leaning racist. We don't need to stoke any of the fires with even joking use of the word. I didn't draw anyone into a - subtle or non-subtle - personal attack who wasn't already well positioning himself for an argument and resisting a regular discussion with derisive little chants about the team that, as it soon turned out, is the greatest rival of his favorite team. stfu2 wasn't randomly called a dickhead and baited for an argument. He wriggled himself onto the hook, dangled himself out there and told us all to take a bite.

posted by jerseygirl at 10:00 AM on January 26

Jerseygirl, I am educated, but not that smart. And, as a result, I have apparently not expressed my point very well. I did not mean to compare the use of the "N" word with the use of the word dickhead. Big, big difference there, no question. The comparison I meant to draw was this: I said I didn't like personal attacks, and you used that comment as a springboard to a personal attack. I tried to liken this to someone, such as yourself, making a simple, reasonable request, such as don't use the "N" word (could just as easily have been something less inflamatory like "don't dangle prepositions"), only to have someone deliberately do what you just asked them not to. It wasn't the use of the word dickhead I objected to as much as the in-your-face way you seemed to disregard my objection. You and justgary may have some back story with stfu2 that I am not aware of, but in this thread it seemed to me that all he was doing, initially, was stating his opinion. I didn't agree with his position either, and his "chants" were silly and deserving of derision, but I didn't think he said anything that deserved such personal abuse. For me, there is a big difference between disagreeing with someone' s stated opinion, versus saying that the speaker of that opinion is a dickhead across the board. When the commentary crosses that line, that seems to be when things get out of control. If you feel differently, and think stfu2 deserves everything he got, we can agree to disagree, but I'm asking please don't use my posts as a launching pad for missiles at someone else when I have stated an objection to those very same missiles. If you want to use them against me, fine, but do so at your own risk (I'm rabid -- heh, heh). Your hardline position on the "N" word, again, is totally justifiable and commendable. I promise to abide (not that I needed the request to do so).

posted by BullpenPro at 10:40 AM on January 26

justgary, if you think that its a question of 'can you handle the high and away pitch' then you know very little about baseball or at least hitting one. This is off topic, and bullpenpro basically gave my view point, but I'll bite. Your original comment: I bet when your kids play ball and they hit a high and away 3-0 pitch over the fence you tell them 'great job.' ...is too vague and generic to have a simple answer. Sure, your answer is baseball 101, and since you're dealing with high school players, I can understand that. But it's not the open and shut case you seem to think it is, which means it didn't prove what you thought it did. Since there was no take sign, the hitter could hit away. There's some reason for that. Perhaps the teams best hitter is up. For the hitter most of the battle is won if he knows what pitch is coming and what location. Perhaps the pitcher has a pattern of throwing high and away as a throw away pitch. Perhaps the pitcher will take a little something off the pitch since he believes the hitter is taking. Perhaps the hitter prefers the ball up and outside so he can get his arms extended. So he looks for that pitch, gets it, and crushes it. That's good hitting. That's a thinking hitter that goes by the situation, his instincts, rather than some "3-0 take" rule. When a coach gives a hitter the green light on 3-0, he's doing so because if possible he wants more than a walk. He knows what the hitter is capable of. You'll often hear the coach say to pick out your pitch and drive it. The hitter isn't making sure to swing at a strike. They want their pitch. The look for exactly that pitch (ex. high and outside) and if they don't get it, they take ball four, or even strike one. And that's just touching the tip of the iceburg. So many thoughts and decisions go into the situation you described (which for me is the beauty of baseball) that to give it a simple rule as you did is not giving the complexity of the game credit. On topic, I don't think anyone would say the sox front office hasn't been a mess over the off season. But the current front office also did a lot of wonderful things over the past 3 years. You say you're a yankee fan first, and sox second (which is bizarre) yet you've praised the yankees and said the sox haven't changed since Yawkey, you point to their record over their entire history as a failure, and you pick the 04 sox team, when they finally did win it all, as the most annoying team in history. Exactly what part of the red sox are you a fan of? I just think you've got your fan goggles on. Nothing wrong with that, we all do it sometimes. You just need a support group to help you admit your problem. It's the first step to recovery.

posted by justgary at 11:22 AM on January 26

sfts2 wrote: "I did not say completely devoid, and I said 'for the most part some of the ..." Strange ... I re-read your post word-for-word and the words "for the most part some of the" don't appear anywhere in the post. What ... you studied at the Dick Cheney School of Public Speaking, or something? Make a statement that's recorded and eminently quotable, and then when called on it, deny you said it or claim you said something entirely different? Semantics are one thing, but outright misrepresentation of words is another. Simply own up to your post being the result of over-exhuberant fanboyness. A simple "Sorry folks, I typed before I thought" will suffice. And what ... NOBODY is going to comment about Roger Maris being the only one who genuinely deserves the HR record? Everyone since Maguire has been a chemical fake. Gauntlet dropped.

posted by Saint714 at 11:55 AM on January 26

The Eastwood film or the arcade game?

posted by yerfatma at 12:06 PM on January 26

The point was of my 3-0 pitch comment was NOT to specifically to discuss that but that you seemed to espouse the view that because an action had a positive consequence then it was a smart decision. If Barry Bonds wants to swing at 3-0 thats thats his right as a great hitter, BUT if you are coaching players (including most professional players) or kids, as I alluded to, then the RESULT is less important than the approach that you are taking, just like my point about Grady Little. Swinging at a outside 3-0 pitch is a bad approach and will not pay off in the long term, although in any particular case may result in a good outcome. His approach was sound, you may disagree, but its fairly standard to let HOF pitchers get out of the inning and not yank them, especially if they don't want to come out, and the front office has sent the message throughout the season that Pedro was the man and was untouchable, which if recollection serves was the case IN MY OPINION, during the season in question. I do not believe that it was reason to fire him regardless of what Francona did the following year. Perhaps a little more care in reading what you respond to, would be in order? I think it typifies what my original post was meant to bring up, a slighly lessened degree of baseball acumen than many other organizations. Maybe its not even acumen, mayube they are surrounded by troll fans as well, and want to shut them the fuck up. Your projection onto me of rabid Yankee fandom is ridiculous, and I have stated multiple times herein that it isn't the case, and I think I stated it in the past post that you brought up in this context. The fact that you think it bizarre that I like the Sox as well says more about you than me. I live in New England surround by both Yankee and Sox fans. I'm sorry that doesn't fit into your world-view. I am a baseball/basketball/footbal/hockey enthusiast but not a big pro baseball fan or sports fan in general. Let me put it this way, if I had the choice of going to the Yankee Red Sox ALCS or throwing a baseball around with my sons, or going to watch them or my summer league team play I would do the latter. I'm sure you think that is bizarre too. My Who lyrics were meant to entertain and make some people laugh. I'm sorry you didn't find them funny. Someone said above that they liked who lyrics, and I tried to expand upon that theme with what I thought were surprising appropos and that it might bring some Sox trolls to the surface for some 'good natured' hot stove argument, and boy did it. I guess I expected them to have a sense of humor, or at least, a less rude attitude. Speaking of trolls, constantly taking snippets of what people write and ignoring the overall context and sentiment is insipid troll behavior. Just stop. Saint714 - does the word 'devoid'? exist in what you read? because its the same quote. Just go back and read this posted by justgary at 5:46 PM CST on January 25 and then you will know what is going on. Lastly, in retrospect, I understand that what I thought was good natured, humourous ribbing, might have been misinterpreted by some. I'll admit that I am probably unknown here on this forum. So for that, I apologize. Being called a dickhead without any other provocation than that, is completely out of order and deserved a less restrained response that what I offered.

posted by sfts2 at 12:40 PM on January 26

Behold! The Martyr!

posted by jerseygirl at 12:51 PM on January 26

Sfts2, I think I'm going to bow out of this debate, as we're simply going around and around, and at this point, I'm not sure exactly who you're talking to or about. So to end... Perhaps a little more care in reading what you respond to, would be in order? I would say the same to you, as you completely ignored everything I wrote to try and show that when not given a take signal, swinging at a pitch you're waiting for is in no way bad hitting. And this goes for any hitter given the hit away sign, not just barry bonds. You seem like a very rules type guy. The sox lost the game when pedro was left in too long, but it was the RIGHT thing to do. Player hits a home run on a 3-0 count but it was the WRONG thing to do. Results are one way of deciding if your decision was correct. You seem to throw the whole result out the door. Again, I'm sure it's because you're dealing with high school boys, but your black and white baseball world has little to do with high level baseball. The fact that you think it bizarre that I like the Sox as well says more about you than me. No, it says more about the dictionary. bi·zarre (b?-zär') adj. Strikingly unconventional; odd. Favorite team, yankees, second, red sox. Unconventional, odd, bizarre. Not good or bad, bizarre. How you can even argue that point is, well, bizarre. Lastly, there is not trolling behavior in this thread. No one was more rude to you than you were to them. You called someone an asshat, what did you expect in return? No one is being any more rude than you were to them. No one is trolling. No one is taking this too seriously. Several posters took your previous comments and took them apart piece by piece, the whole comment. Disagree with everyone, but let go of the victim thing. Don't get into the fire and then try to get out by calling everyone a troll.

posted by justgary at 01:04 PM on January 26

This thread brought to you by Lithium. Get on it!

posted by yerfatma at 01:15 PM on January 26

Therapy is expensive. Threads are cheap.

posted by BullpenPro at 01:33 PM on January 26

I disagree BP. And to prove it, I can forward you some wonderful emails from concerned strangers who want to get cheap "^%^%Viagra, Lithium and Prozac^&^&^ out to the public.

posted by jerseygirl at 01:41 PM on January 26

Ah... I'd probably order the wrong thing. Then I'd just be depressed AND unable to go out in public. Thanks for the offer, though.

posted by BullpenPro at 02:09 PM on January 26

Lighten up, I was joking to a large extent with my first comments. stfs if you were just joking then why the hell did you keep on supporting your "jokes" and arguing with jerseygirl and justgary? Oh oops, I guess that is a snippit. Then again, you don't have to read it if you don't want to.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 02:12 PM on January 26

Good. Done.

posted by sfts2 at 03:23 PM on January 26

You called someone an asshat, what did you expect in return? Just wanted to point out that jerseygirl called him a dickhead first. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right? I'm not taking sides in the n-th repetition of Yankee-BoSox bickering, I just want it to end. Can't we have a Sox thread that doesn't turn into this? justgary, jerseygirl, you've both been here a long time and have participated in this kind of thread often. You're worth much more than this. Let the "schizos" sink alone, they're doing a fine job by themselves.

posted by qbert72 at 07:01 PM on January 26

As an author, it's consistently humorous to me when people simply assume that a reading audience will comprehend what was meant to be written, as opposed to what was actually written. For the mathematical among you, here's the equation: "The sky is blue" does not equal "The sky is red." Write what you INTEND your point to be and you won't have to whine about being picked on. Awaiting the "waaah"

posted by Saint714 at 07:07 PM on January 26

Honest and non-provoking question for JerseyGirl: Why is it perfectly acceptable for "N-people" to use the "N-word" in everything from simple conversation to song lyrics? Funny how the N-word isn't offensive if it's raking in MTV revenue or perpetuating cop-killah stereotypes among rappers and movie stars, but it's offensive-to-the-core if it's used by anyone else. Hypocrisy knows no color. It's JUST A WORD. If it's acceptable when spoken by one group, it should be acceptable when spoken by all groups. I'm sick of this racial double-standard that's constantly in play. If I founded the United Caucasian College Fund, people would be calling me a racist and a Nazi. But if I walk into the United Negro College Fund and request college loan funds, I'll be told that I'm disqualified because I'm caucasian. I'd be branded a white supremacist if I tried to support the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Caucasian People), but the other NAACP gets government subsidies and is tax-exempt for the practice of catering to one specific race. HOW IS THAT NOT RACIST? And it's about 90 years too late to try playing the slavery card. Nobody in the last four generations of my family would have even been alive in the time of slavery. Was it a horrible, unfair and sadistic practice? Of course it was. But how long should a race be "entitled" to compensation? I don't see anyone in this country lining up to pay Jewish people for their suffering and death from 60 years ago. So why should people-of-color/blacks/African-Americans (or whatever the current "proper" politically correct term is) be entitled to compensation for something that happened on a FAR smaller scale 120 years ago? As George Carlin said, "Nobody gets upset when Eddie Murphy and Richard Pryor use the "N-word" ... why? Because they're N-word." THERE is your goose and gander.

posted by Saint714 at 07:24 PM on January 26

justgary, jerseygirl, you've both been here a long time and have participated in this kind of thread often. You're worth much more than this. Let the "schizos" sink alone, they're doing a fine job by themselves. qbert, I agree that sometimes I go on too long with members that obviously don't want to debate the points. If I go on for 3 paragraphs about why hitting a 3-0 high and away fastball when given the green light can very well be good baseball, I'd love to get three paragraphs back about why it's not. I didn't get it. I would have loved to debate sfts2 on the topic, but its not possible when he'd rather play the victim. I'm not going to give up on members until I know for sure it's a waste of time. If that results in some irritating threads, so be it (and honestly, this thread is nothing compared to most ny/boston threads.) But your point is well taken.

posted by justgary at 07:41 PM on January 26

I would have loved to have thoughtfully debate stfs2 on this subject. I started to, but I gave up because on a preview of my post, it was abundantly clear one party was interested in slamming and the other was interested in discussing. Your point is understood, qbert, and you're right that I shouldn't have bothered. Gander, by the way, doesn't care about being called an asshat. Saint... let's not. I didn't even read what you posted, just the first and last sentences and... we're not doing this. This isn't Metafiler and or the venue for what you want to discuss. Sorry dude.

posted by jerseygirl at 08:50 PM on January 26

I have to agree about the Roger Maris home run record thing.

posted by ayankeefan at 10:04 PM on January 29

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