FanDuel - WFBC

January 17, 2006

Royce Gracie Returns to UFC in May: The dude that held the Ultimate Fighting Championship for its first 3 years defeating dudes twice his size (they didn't have weight classes at the time) is coming back to vie for the welterweight title. The name Gracie is synonymous with the world of mixed martial arts esp. shootfighting, and many are looking forward to his return to the octogon. I know I am. Peace, Chris

posted by chrisly13 to extreme at 01:04 PM - 55 comments

The UFC (and mixed martial arts) is a guilty pleasure of mine. I don't pay to watch it, but when it pops up on free TV, I can't seem to stop watching it. That said, Royce Gracie fights tended to be a bit, well, boring. He got so good at the grappling/choking/submission stuff that it didn't make for good TV. Gracie and his opponent would spend 10 minutes lying on the mat, twisting and turning, trying to get a grip on the other guy's arm/leg/neck, when suddenly there would be a double-tap and the match would be over. It seems (from the stuff I've watched in the past couple of months on SpikeTV and TSN) that they've modified the rules to 3 rounds (instead of one long round), and give the referee the option to stop the fight and make the combatants get off the mat and start again (if they aren't doing anything productive). Would this affect Gracie's ability to compete? I'm not sure. He seems skilled enough that he could adapt, but we'll have to see.

posted by grum@work at 01:40 PM on January 17

Royce was a pretty good striker when he was on his feet, but he always went with his strength which was the grappling. Those sweep kicks to the inside of the knee looked nasty. At 39, this is a risky move. I hope he still has his quickness or he might get bashed. I liked the no weight class format. Remember that Tiger karate guy breaking his hand on the head of the 700 pounder from New Jersey? David and Goliath, man. David and fucking Goliath!

posted by garfield at 02:38 PM on January 17

“There’s only one way to find out,” said Gracie, “and that’s why we’re here.” Would this affect Gracie's ability to compete? I'm not sure. He seems skilled enough that he could adapt, but we'll have to see. posted by grum@work Mr. Grum, your ending remark is the same as Gracie's in the interview. We'll find out come May. I totally agree with you about watching 2 men role around on the ground for 20 minutes. It can be quite boring. The sport evolved from those one round days to its present format for the very reason you mentioned: 'good tv'. However I do miss the concept of one dude fighting not 1, but maybe 3 or 4 dudes with no weight class as Garfield mentioned in one night to win the belt. No pun intented but that was tough man. Peace, Chris

posted by chrisly13 at 03:06 PM on January 17

I think it's great he's coming back but he will lose. Why you may ask? Well he will be fighting the new Gracie of this era. Matt Hughes is as dominate in his sport as Tiger is in his. I just hope Gracie doesn't go and tarnish his name by getting destroyed in the octagon. I also don't think he'll do as well without being able to wear his guie (I don't know if thats how it's spelled, if someone knows you can correct me. It's that white suit he always wore.) and choke people out, which he was notorious for. I do hope it's a good fight though for the money we'll spend to see it. Good luck Gracie I think your gonna need it.

posted by sadsadcubsfan at 03:24 PM on January 17

Remember that Tiger karate guy breaking his hand on the head of the 700 pounder from New Jersey? YES! keith hackney versus manny yarbrough (the pride of Rahway)! that fight was great.

posted by goddam at 04:05 PM on January 17

I enjoy the UFC for free but wouldn't pay for it. The UFC is looking more and more like the WWF and bringing Gracie back is just part of that look. The sport has evolved and the class of athletes is getting better. Matt Hughes is a quality athlete, too well conditioned, too skilled at grappling, submissions and stand up to be beat by Gracie. Gracie's success in the past was because the relatively unskilled tough guys he was fighting were not very good and his skill worked against the inexperienced who did not know how to defend against it. You don't see as many submissions or choke outs now becuase the athletes all have learned how to avoid them. If they get submitted or choked they have made a big mistake. The UFC has basically become dominated by mediocre boxers and excellent wrestlers who study a little Brazilian Ju Jitsu. Matt Hughes should dominate Gracie physically for this reason. The UFC is going for the money which is why the quote "strikers" like Chuck Liddell are the big draw. Boxing is just better to watch from a spectator's viewpoint. Customers want to see knock outs not choke outs. That is what they will pay for. That is why the UFC has changed its rules. If Chuck Liddell is such a great striker why doesn't he go after the boxing cruiser weight title? A white champion in boxing would be worth many millions more than the comparable small money in the UFC. He is considered the dominate striker mainly because he has fairly decent boxing skills where most opponents don't. Unfortunately a Chuck Liddell would get KO'd quickly if he tried to stand up against a Roy Jones Jr. or other boxing champ. All fighting is a based on heart, determination and a physicality which suits the rules of the fight. Matt Hughes has the mental and physical credentials perfectly suited for the rules of the UFC. The more they stand them up the more they will become boxers, the more time they spend on the ground the more they will be college wrestlers. Now its a hybrid between both that favors great wrestlers and mediocre boxers with enough muscle power to cope on the ground. As the rules change the type of fighter that is built to suit them better will become dominate. The UFC of Gracie's day is gone. He will no longer be able to compete effectively.

posted by Atheist at 04:15 PM on January 17

A neighbor of mine when I lived in Redondo Beach, CA was a student of the Gracie school and taught his own classes in his garage. I just hung out with him because he had the best weed. peace out, terrapin chris, please stop signing your posts and comments. We already know it is you because it says "posted by chrisly13 at 3:06 PM CST on January 17, etc, etc.

posted by scully at 04:30 PM on January 17

I pumped gas at a station in North Jersey owned by this guy who trained down in Brazil with the Gracies. He had this b/w picture hanging in the office of himself pinning a younger Gracie. I was rarely late for that gig.

posted by garfield at 04:35 PM on January 17

His come back will be great. He certainly is a legend. Obviously the "rolling around" can get kind of boring. But believe me there's a chess match going on there. All the moves or nonmoves are very calculated. Jiu-Jitsu or "gentle art" (translation) was thought to be the most realistic and efficient form of self defense during its conception in India more than 2000 yrs ago. It made its way thru China and then Japan. In 1914 Japanese Champions Esai Maeda and Inomata, arrived in Brazil to assist the Japanese immigration colony. Gastao Gracie, a scholar and politician of Scottish decent, aided them, and Maeda showed gratitude by teaching secrets of that ancient fighting style to Gastao’s son, Carlos Gracie. Chuck Norris went to Brazil during the mid-late 80's to train with Rickson Gracie and his father The Grand Master of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Helio Gracie. In 88' Chuck Norris was so impressed with the techniques, he invited them to Las Vegas to conduct a seminar. Thats when the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu craze began in the US. Royce Gracie made the Art famous when no holds barred fighting was brought to the US and televised for the first time. He would beat very skilled men twice his size by wrapping himself around his opponent like a Boa constrictor and cutting off their air in 1 way or another. Since then the Art has evolved as all things do. The Gracies have taken defeats as all great fighters do. Matt Hughes is a great competitor and i wouldn't be surprised if he beat Royce. Then again, i wouldn't be surprised if he didn't. Atheist, you make some good points. I wouldn't say Ken Shamrock is an unskilled UFC fighter. I wouldn't say Dan Severn is an unskilled UFC fighter. The fight between Royce and Hughes will be a lot closer than expected. Trust me. I'd take seeing a rear naked choke by Gracie over a Tank Abbott knock-out punch any day. A big guy that punches hard is suppose to knock-out the smaller guy. The smaller guy isn't suppose to be able to win at all. That's what makes Royce's victories more exciting to me anyway.

posted by BlogZilla at 04:47 PM on January 17

Terrapin, i always felt like Chris was my little brother emailing me when I read his posts. His signiture was kinda of funny. Maybe its his trademark.

posted by BlogZilla at 04:52 PM on January 17

BlogZilla, let me guess: that "more than 2000 years ago" history is something they taught you when you signed that black belt contract, right? Most modern martial arts have an unfortunate tendency to invent lengthy, grand, colorful and fictitious histories for themselves, generally referencing either a)Bodidharma, b)paintings of Shaolin monks, c)cave paintings or d)all of the above. Read a book or two by the late great Don Draeger if you want an accurate history of Asian fighting arts.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 04:56 PM on January 17

chris, please stop signing your posts and comments Message received terrapin. I'm new at this and learning as I go along. Thanks for the advice. All the comments so far have been really cool. I wasn't sure what kind of reaction I was gonna get by posting the Gracie article, so I'm thrilled to death about all the posts.

posted by chrisly13 at 05:01 PM on January 17

BlogZilla - All fighting success is dependent on the proper mental state. It is the reason that Mike Tyson once defeated, and opponents began not to fear fighting him lost his dominance. If the fight between Hughes and Gracie is close, it will be because psychologically Gracie is seen as a larger than life legend and well deserved. A big key to Hughes' success will be his ability to face Gracie as just another guy trying to take his title. Youth, an excellent skill set, physical superiority and conditioning should have Hughes winning if he isn't mentally defeated by the Gracie name. The big announcement I was hoping the UFC was goint to make would have been...Mike Tyson is entering the UFC. That kind of bare fisted striking power, hand speed, elusive head movement and physical strength could really liven things up for the UFC. Tyson's success or lack of it could either fastrack their success or destroy their credibility as the ultimate fighting sport. I watched the Chuck Liddell vs. Jeremy Horn fight. Although I respect both men's skills and toughness. They stayed on their feet and it looked like a amateur boxing match. I couldn't help but think that either guy could not have lasted 3 minutes against a good 200+ lb boxer like Holyfield or Tyson.

posted by Atheist at 05:11 PM on January 17

from the sound of it you guys don't know anything about royce or the gracie family and whoever compared matt huges to royce is a complete retard!(sadsadcubsfan) gracie has been fighting his whole life in real fights with know rules and as far as him not wearing gi that will not make any difference and you would know that if you seen rickson,ralph,royler,and any other gracie or any machado brothers fight you would know that it does not matter and one last thing matt huges would not have a title or a job if it was not for royce and the gracie family! if for some small chance the huges wins the fight he still will never be better than royce.

posted by BJJfan at 05:11 PM on January 17

One thing I notice about Martial Arts fans is that they do tend to overexaggerated the skills. They tend to confuse what is humanly possible with feats in Bruce Lee movies or Kung Fu (the TV show). Old Chinese masters aren't kicking ass in the UFC at age 70 and one man does not beat 10 at once, and Cain is not catching arrows from a crossbow with his eyes closed. Gracie is human and at an age where fighters are usually done. The success of older fighters usually undermines the perceived level of the competition.

posted by Atheist at 05:27 PM on January 17

I was thrilled to hear this. Despite the new mixed martial art pedigree of the new generation like Hughes and Liddell (though he is 35), I still would never count out Joyce in any one-on-one fight. Remember Kimo? He must have out-wieghed Gracie by 100 pounds, broke Gracie's collarbone and still had to tap out. God, I loved the old UFC - they had no real idea what they were doing and what the results would be. you'd have violent offenders like Tank Abott (who, according to the UFC practiced the ancient and delicate art of "Pit Fighting" - never did see that class at the Y) versus schooled masters with no weight classes and no idea how to televise it. Results were so often weird, wild and occasionally vastly entertaining.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 06:20 PM on January 17

I ain't going to say any one of these oppinions are right or wrong. But I'll tell you one thing: I sure am going to enjoy watching Royce & Matt get it on a lot more after reading all these thoughts. Keep them coming dudes.

posted by chrisly13 at 06:57 PM on January 17

I'm with Mr. McSmokey on this one. The old UFC was almost psychedelic it was so weird. But it was too gross to be trippy.

posted by fabulon7 at 08:01 PM on January 17

BlogZilla, let me guess: that "more than 2000 years ago" history is something they taught you when you signed that black belt contract, right? I have no such belt, nor do i practice any martial art. I wish I had a blackbelt in any discipline. I do however read. The information provided by me is what i've learned via a few close friends who study the art of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I guess I have the same choice to find it accurate as you have to find American history accurate. If you intended your comment to be funny, then for arguments sake I'll laugh and continue on about the topic. They tend to confuse what is humanly possible with feats in Bruce Lee movies or Kung Fu (the TV show). Very good point, which is why Jiu-Jitsu tends to teach what is practical and what is in the realm of reality. It focuses on defense (another reason why people find Gracie fights boring. Just like in any sport, offense sells tickets, defense wins games)Joint locks, chokes, sweeps and leverage. No haymakers, flying kicks or anything else found in any movie containing Neo, power rangers, ninja turtles, danielson or Mr. Miagi. I don't think Royce will have any trouble if he can't wear his gi. He is well versed in Vale Tudo as well, so it shouldn't be a problem. As far as fighting Hughes, let me remind you of the Shamrock fight that lasted well over the 30 minute time limit. Granted 28 of the minutes was spent with Shamrock in Gracies guard and it wasn't exciting at all. I think Ken is twice as strong as Hughes. Like Royce said, "We'll see"!

posted by BlogZilla at 09:21 PM on January 17

Amen brother Blogzilla.

posted by chrisly13 at 11:18 PM on January 17

Here you go guys I thought you all might dig this. Peace out, Grrlacher........sorry I could'nt help it!!!

posted by Grrrlacher at 02:05 AM on January 18

Niceeee, Grrrlacher. I almost forgot how nasty he is. Hughes may be in trouble. Thanks for the link.

posted by BlogZilla at 06:11 AM on January 18

whoever compared matt huges to royce is a complete retard!(sadsadcubsfan) gracie has been fighting his whole life in real fights Actually I believe that you are the retard BJJFAN, because I did not compare the two but only stated that he is as dominate now as Gracie was back then so get your frickin facts straight chump. If Hughes isn't then I guess you don't watch much UFC.

posted by sadsadcubsfan at 07:51 AM on January 18

whoever compared matt huges to royce is a complete retard!(sadsadcubsfan) gracie has been fighting his whole life in real fights Actually I believe that you are the retard BJJFAN, because I did not compare the two but only stated that he is as dominate now as Gracie was back then so get your frickin facts straight chump. If Hughes isn't then I guess you don't watch much UFC.

posted by sadsadcubsfan at 07:51 AM on January 18

I have no such belt, nor do i practice any martial art. I'll give you the short version, then: that "history" is a load of hooey.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:06 AM on January 18

Whoa, my comment above mentioning weed was my 420th comment on SpoFi. Duuuude, that is so weird.

posted by scully at 12:43 PM on January 18

How is Hughes going to fight him? Hughes is a ground and pound kinda guy but I don't know if you want to take Gracie to the floor. Then again, I've never seen Hughes do much work standup either so I'm guessing they'll rastle. I'd put money on Gracie but it's close.

posted by tron7 at 12:56 PM on January 18

terrapin, you had to plan that, right? Because if you didn't, that's just too funny.

posted by Desert Dog at 02:22 PM on January 18

I swear I didn't.

posted by scully at 05:12 PM on January 18

LilBrownBat, what the hell are you talking about man? I guess my question should be, if you have no iterest in the UFC or Jiu-Jitsu, whats your point? Where did Jiu-Jitsu come from? Let me guess, huggy bear invented all martial arts with his first pimpslap on a ho? Next you'll tell me that Dr. James Naismith didn't invent basketball, and that your almanac of hooey states it was the 3 guys that formed the Harlem Globetrotters. Are you 1 of those guys that ass-ume you know a lot?

posted by BlogZilla at 07:35 PM on January 18

I'm sorry, BlogZilla. I knew I was venturing into dangerous territory when I burst your bubble. At the risk of further inciting your wrath, I'll add that there is also no Easter Bunny.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:25 PM on January 18

After reading atheists' thoughts on the state of mma I have to chime in here. I have trained boxing, thai boxing, bjj, tkd, and greco roman to some extent, and I'm here to tell you that putting roy jones jr. in an mma ring is a great way to showcase exactly why boxing, by itself, doesn't work in mma. Boxers have to worry about hands... that's it. That's all they have to train. Offence, defence... all hands. No leg kicks, no takedowns, no kimuras, no traingles. Just hands. In mma, if you use too much of boxings trademark defensive ducking, diving, head movement, you'll catch a crisp knee to the chin. Overcommit to a ko punch, you'll leave yourself open for leg kicks, takedowns, thai clinches (none of these things are boxers friends). I love and respect boxing, but if mike tyson steps into that octagon and fights like a boxer, fights like his only worry in the world is the other guys hands, you'll see a death in the ring. Goodbye forever Iron Mike. Chuck Liddell is a WORLD CLASS K-1 kickboxer!!! Striking was his only game and he was one of the best. When he first stepped into the world of mma he had to make HUGE adjustments in the way he implemented his strikes. He quickly found himself in alot of trouble when he threw those heavy shots with no strategy on how to deal with getting back out of range. These adjustments lead to his becoming a lhw champ. He understood that this was not just punches and kicks anymore and the cautious, pawing striker you see now is a result of that. Make no mistake, put him back into a ring where all he has to worry about is strikes and you will see a barrage of the deadliest strikes you have ever seen come out of a man. But this is mma, you have to worry about alot of things. This is not boxing. In closing, I believe that if you put mma's best boxers into a boxing ring with boxing's best boxers, the full time boxer i.e. Roy Jones, will likely always win. After all, hands are all they train, which means they are pinpoint accurate and very dangerous with them. Whereas, an mma fighter spends only about 15% to 20% of his training time on hands, because there are many more weapons he has to keep sharp. Conversely, if you put boxings best boxer into an mma ring, there will be absolutely no contest. Like I said before, boxers have only mastered 15% of the trade.

posted by maxotspartan at 11:12 PM on January 18

I'm thinking if Tyson had trained a little in mma, when he was in his prime, he would have been just as dominant in the octagon. Maybe even with just his boxing skills he would be dominant, all it would take is one good punch and it's over. For the most part though I agree with maxotspartan. Boxing and mma are different sports and to say one sport's atheletes are superior is like saying that basketball players are superior to baseball players, which might be true but it doesn't mean that basketball players could crossover and dominate the other sport(just ask michael), they have different skill sets. Boxing and mma is probably a bit of a closer comparison though.

posted by tron7 at 11:29 PM on January 18

LilBrownBat, I read some of your posts on other topics. I discovered you're female and your favorite sport is womens basketball. Enough said. You did burst my bubble though. I just made all that stuff up. I figured I'm new here, so what do I have to lose. What can I say, you're the man!!

posted by BlogZilla at 12:20 AM on January 19

Was going to say something along the lines of what maxospartan said concerning boxing and mma fighters. Oh, and even the Gracies dont believe there was one all knowing person who invented martial arts 2000 years ago.

posted by NHBfan at 03:20 AM on January 19

LilBrownBat, I read some of your posts on other topics. I discovered you're female and your favorite sport is womens basketball. Enough said. Right, that makes me a moron who doesn't know anything about martial arts. Seriously, although I have trained martial arts for a number of years, that by itself doesn't mean that I know anything about martial arts history. It's an unfortunate truth that a lot of styles and schools, particularly in the United States, have taken to inventing ancient and grandiose histories for themselves, which their students tend to swallow hook, line and sinker. I was fortunate to train in two different styles that are pretty frank and honest about their relatively recent origins (and with teachers that call bullshit when they see it), and also to have done some reading from sources that have taken a more critical and scholarly approach (which, after all, is what you need when you're talking about history; otherwise, what you have is called "fiction"). If you'd like, I can recommend some sources on the history of jiu-jitsu that you might enjoy.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:02 PM on January 19

BlogZilla just because someone's favorite sport is women's basketball doesn't mean anything. In fact, if you paid attention to the rest of lbb's profile you would see that she also likes sports most consider to be the "main" sports. Plus, I would have to say from reading her posts that lbb is probably one of the most informed people on this sight.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 01:29 PM on January 19

Oh, and even the Gracies dont believe there was one all knowing person who invented martial arts 2000 years ago My comment; Jiu-Jitsu or "gentle art" (translation) was thought to be the most realistic and efficient form of self defense during its conception in India more than 2000 yrs ago. No mention of an all knowing person. The teaching of the history of Jiu-Jitsu I'm referring to comes directly from a Pedro Sauer seminar. A 6th degree Rickson Gracie black belt. I think I'm more inclined to believe him than a random skeptic at a sports website. If someone can post a credible link to a site that disagrees with this teaching I would gladly take a look at it. I'm sure in 1000 yrs someone will be teaching Bruce Lee's style (or non style) or sharing his teachings and history with others. Im sure in 1000 yrs there will be skeptics that say; I'll give you the short version, then: that "history" is a load of hooey And then the person will have a choice to go on and form their own opinion and that will be the end of it.

posted by BlogZilla at 06:35 PM on January 19

Jiu-Jitsu or "gentle art" (translation) was thought to be the most realistic and efficient form of self defense during its conception in India more than 2000 yrs ago. No mention of an all knowing person. The teaching of the history of Jiu-Jitsu I'm referring to comes directly from a Pedro Sauer seminar. A 6th degree Rickson Gracie black belt. I think I'm more inclined to believe him than a random skeptic at a sports website. If someone can post a credible link to a site that disagrees with this teaching I would gladly take a look at it. I already gave you -- twice -- references to credible sources, in the form of the most respected historian of Asian martial arts who has written in English. Unfortunately, Draeger died before the era of the internet, so most of his work is in that old-fashioned medium, books, rather than on the net. If you want to read his works, for the most part, you'll have to read a book. If reading a book is not for you, you might take a look at this article, which gives exhausting detail about the various jujitsu ryu and their lineages. The "Indian monk"/Bodidharma story is an old martial arts chestnut; no reputable source has shown any connection, in terms of teaching or transfer of skills or knowledge, between the possibly mythical person known as Bodidharma and any subsequent system of martial arts. No one disputes the grappling ability of the Gracies; however, their connection to jujitsu came about through a Japanese immigrant to Brazil. Eleven years (or less) from the time this supposed jujitsu master began teaching him, Carlos Gracie started his own academy. Anyone with any familiarity with traditional Japanese martial arts would be smelling a fishy stink right about now -- you just don't claim the expertise to start your own school and found your own style after a mere eleven years' practice. But be that as it may, Gracie Jujitsu should stand or fall on its own merits, not on some hokey pretend lineage.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:03 AM on January 20

Reference: Mastering JUJITSU by Renzo Gracie, John Danaher. That is where a Gracie disagrees with the Centralized Orgins Theory of martial arts. I.E. One person or group of people or area created a certain type of fighting style. I can add more if you like. I have almost all of the Gracie books. Yes I know most just have differnt covers with same information inside. Signed: Not just some random skeptic.

posted by NHBfan at 05:22 PM on January 20

No one disputes the grappling ability of the Gracies; however, their connection to jujitsu came about through a Japanese immigrant to Brazil Exactly. In 1914, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu champions, Esai Maeda and Inomata, arrived in Brazil to assist the Japanese immigration colony. Gastao Gracie, a scholar and politician of Scottish decent, aided them, and Maeda showed gratitude by teaching secrets of that ancient fighting style to Gastao’s son, Carlos Gracie. Jiu-Jitsu, which translates into "gentle art", shows to be the most efficient in realistic combat. Based on leverages, chokeholds and various sweeps, it combines the effectiveness of training with true knowledge of self-defense. That was my point, obviously they obtained their Jiu-Jitsu doctrine directly from these 2 Japanese grand champions. So they in turn must have obtained the history that they taught from somewhere. Its not as if the Gracies started making up shit. We are talking about well respected individuals here. I doubt Pedro Sauer, Rickson , Helio, Gastao, or Carlos Gracie had any reason to make up or otherwise fabricate any history of something that they held is such high regard. The people I have mentioned here are experts in this Art and I have no reason to question any portion of what they have taught. I am not trying to pass this off as my own teaching. I am merely offering this version of history as taught by Pedro Sauer. You have every right to call it what you will and believe what you want. I will choose to believe what I have learned directly from them. If it offends you that I trust this teaching or that I have chosen to share it here, well that wasn't my intention. But for someone to try to discredit the experts I mentioned, and offer no other versions of the specific birth of Jiu-Jitsu, opting instead to offer an example generalized teaching about all martial arts, well I choose to question that. Im sure you find yourself very knowledgeable on a vast array of subjects here, however when it comes to this particular subject, I'll choose to believe the experts in the field. You admit that the Gracies learned from a Japanese immigrant and I offered the same information. Obviously that is were the history teachings came from. I don't think Esai Maeda and Inomata felt the need to create some hooey as you called it to gain the interest of the Gracies. On the other hand, I'm sure you have came across some hooey from a sensei like the one in the karate kid. However, if you believe 1 teacher inventing some hooey to gain interest in an art means that all of them did, well just this 1 time you happen to be wrong. I'm sure that doesn't happen often in your opinion, but there's a first time for everything.

posted by BlogZilla at 07:22 PM on January 20

NoHoldsBarredfan, I know the work you're referencing by Renzo. I have not read it in its entirety. I'm sure not all will agree with what I have offered. If you have a chance, you should attend a seminar offered by Pedro Sauer. He offers a brief teaching of the history as passed on by Rickson Gracie. I don't think Renzo disagrees with its origins from India though. I also am not sure why we're spending so much time on the topic of history and origins. Trust me, it wasn't some flimflamer offering me some ancient history lesson that got me interested in the teachings of Jiu_JItsu. And it certainly wasn't some fool attempting the following; Most modern martial arts have an unfortunate tendency to invent lengthy, grand, colorful and fictitious histories for themselves, generally referencing either a)Bodidharma, b)paintings of Shaolin monks, c)cave paintings or d)all of the above I wouldn't say Jiu-Jitsu was modern in 1914. In Mr. Sauer's seminar he offered no Bodidharma, paintings, shaolin monks, board breaking, levitation, card tricks, rabbits out of hats, smoke screens, 2 way mirrors, magic pills, or any Tahitian Noni juice. He offered what he believed to be the truth. If any of you consider Pedro Sauer hooey in the world of BJJ, well then I'm certainly not the 1 who needs to reconsider his study materials.

posted by BlogZilla at 07:43 PM on January 20

I wouldn't say Jiu-Jitsu was modern in 1914. You said you'd read links if someone provided them, so why didn't you? In Mr. Sauer's seminar he offered no Bodidharma And what was this "2000 years ago in India" you're talking about, then?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:13 PM on January 20

Listen Joe Fridays sister, ( Just the facts ma'am). This entire ridiculous discussion started from a comment that I offered beginning with; "IT WAS THOUGHT" That's it. Are you going to not let me rest until I say you are right? And that all people in the world should reconsider their studies of any Martial Art because lilbrownbat says its all hooey? My God lady. Do you treat all new members as if they just got out of middle school? I think I'll be heading back to the NFL message boards. I had no idea this message board was locked down by a lady. Here, just for you. ATTENTION: brownbat has exposed the facts I offered from a Pedro Sauer seminar on the history of JJ. Further more, she declares that any form of history of BJJ offered by the Gracies is, in her terms, "hooey". Therefore you should disregard any and all information provided by me. You should understand that brownbat is all knowing and all seeing. She exposed me as a fraud, I will now commit harrycarey if she would only demonstrate how to do it. There is no need to respond about this topic brownbat as I am now dead. On to the next subject, How the atom was split and the history of nuclear energy. Proceed brownbat.

posted by BlogZilla at 10:56 PM on January 20

See, I always thought it was hari kari. Then again, I'm just going on what l_b_b told me.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 11:21 PM on January 20

Funny, I was being a smart ass. But brownbat was suppose to catch that and give me a lexture on samuri warriors and the origin of hari kari. But you beat her to it.

posted by BlogZilla at 01:53 AM on January 21

But brownbat was suppose to catch that and give me a lexture on samuri warriors and the origin of hari kari. Oh, please, get over it. You posted an "IT WAS THOUGHT" that happened to be wrong. I corrected it. You wigged out and got all defensive. You'd think I said something about your mom, for god's sake. Are you going to not let me rest until I say you are right? Pot, kettle, black. You can rest any time you want, bud. It's all up to you.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:25 PM on January 21

BlogZilla if your going to be a dumbass and post stupid shit then your going to get what you deserve. Want this to not happen again? Then don't make crap up.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 06:56 AM on January 22

Back to the original subject. Even though Royce has not been fighting in the US, he has had several fights in Japan. Both with wins and loses. The point there is that he has been fighting top ranked fighter of the likes of Matt Hughes all his life. And I will have to say Royce will win thru patience. Even though Matt is an excellent fighter, I believe he will be the first one to make a mistake trying to prove himself. And that is where Royce’s experience and patience will pay off. The major drawback to Royce is the new rule set since the last time he fought in the UFC. His game takes a little longer to put into play. But I can almost guarantee that he has been practicing using UFC rules. Also the Pride rules that Royce has been fighting under in Japan is similar to UFC.

posted by NHBfan at 12:50 PM on January 22

Yingyang, without reading brownbats post again. You tell me what I made up? Are you just coming to the defence of someone you know? In fact, if you paid attention to the rest of lbb's profile you would see that she also likes sports most consider to be the "main" sports. Plus, I would have to say from reading her posts that lbb is probably one of the most informed people on this sight. Then don't make crap up That's like telling someone they're making up their religion, just because you don't believe in it. Or calling someones religion hooey, because you don't believe in it. What kind of a place is this? I hope you 2 don't represent the entire population here. Just because someone doesn't believe the same thing you do, it doesn't mean it's "hooey" or "crap" or wrong. Its just a different belief. Whats with the argumentative atmosphere here? I have a feeling you have no idea what you're referring to. I think you should form your own opinion on the topic and stop assuming 1 particular person is right just because you look up to that person. Do you have any thoughts on the Hughes Gracie fight? Do you even know who Matt Hughes is? Or are you just here for arguments sake? NHBFan, good point about Royce. He will definitely have more patience than Matt. I also believe Hughes will make the first mistake. Unlike Shamrock, I don't think Hughes will be content to just sit around in Gracies gaurd. He'll try to pass it every chance he gets and he will leave one of his arms open. It will be a good match.

posted by BlogZilla at 03:48 PM on January 22

Has anyone seen if they will change the rules for this fight? I read an article when Gracie went to fight Mark Kerr in Pride. He would only fight if they went without a time limit. He also stated in the article that he will not fight if the is a time limit. If that is the case it would favor Royce big time. As long as Hughes does not knock him out or cut him Royce will wait until Hughes is tired and makes a huge mistake. Royce can fight for hours and hours.

posted by NHBfan at 01:08 PM on January 23

Atheist....you lack any and all knowledge of sports...you're proabaly a jealous weak nerd who watches martial arts every night in a jealous fat rage. Mike Tyson vs Chuck Lidell? Are you kidding...Tyson would come in once and miss wildly with a left hook(infamous)...Lidell being a collegiate champ wrestler would take him down...hit him with 2 elbows ....stand him back up and demolish him. Or kick his head in? Boxing is a sport of the past....corrupted by Don King(you both probably sold your sole to the devil at the same signing) .... THE UFC is the future of fighting... it will exclipse boxing in less than 5 years. Hughes by armbar in the 2nd round....just too much farmboy strength.

posted by moonymitz at 02:43 PM on January 26

Moony, pretty tough talk there partner. But lets be realistic. Sure mike as gotten older an slower, but if you take Mike and Chuck, stick them both in a back alley at age 20. Mike comes out with Chucks ear in his mouth, Chucks teeth in his knuckles and Chucks wallet in his pocket. No Martial Art would ever survive in a brooklyn back alley with iron Mike in his prime with no rules to govern him. Chuck would probably admit that one himself. A young Mike would make Chuck look like exactly what he is, a good wrestler trying to box. The hand speed of ALI and the power of G. Foreman all rolled up into 1. Besides, if what you say is true, where was Chuck when Mike had the titles? 1 Fight against Tyson in his prime would have brought him 10 times the money he is making now. Are you saying Chuck could beat Mike back then, but was to dumb to fight him or something? Thats like saying Michael Jordan could hit a baseball better than Babe Ruth because of his superior basketball skills. Lidell would shoot for a leg and run smack into an uppercut and damn near kill himself. As for your prediction about Hughes- Gracie. You may be right, then again Shamrock has far more "farmboy" strength than Matt and out weighs him by about 40 LBs. And all he could do is sit in Gracies guard for 30 minutes. I guess we'll see.

posted by BlogZilla at 06:38 PM on January 26

I know this thread is old, but I have to comment on a couple things. First, about Mike Tyson: In order for him to win in an MMA competition, he would have to rely solely on landing one KO punch in the less-than-30 seconds it would take for a decent fighter to take him to the ground. And that's exactly what Chuck Liddell, Randy Couture, Matt Hughes, etc, would do. Old or young, Tyson's got one weapon, one chance to end the fight, before it's all over for him. And I really think most fighters in modern UFC have the skills necessary to survive with Tyson (young or old) long enough to take him to the ground. Also, on the history of BJJ: As has been stated, Maeda, a Japanese immigrant in Brazil, taught the Gracies the fundamentals of what would eventually turn into their style of Jiu Jitsu. Maeda, however, was a student of Jigoro Kano, the guy who invented Judo in the late 1800s. See, early Judo actually emphasized a lot more ground work than modern days' "sport" Judo, which is practiced in the Olympics and limits ground time to about 30 seconds for safety. BJJ, therefore, is a modern-day relic of early Judo, before it was watered down and made less effective. The ground work that Kano had applied to Judo was taken fron Fusen Ryu, one of many styles of Japanese martial arts that he had collected while trying to create Judo, which was supposed to be a more effective, modern style.

posted by podslapper at 11:19 AM on February 04

Fact 1: Tyson was a machine who knocked 19 chumps out in 1 rd....because of that...they were chumps w/no defense skills Fact 2: Lidell is a collegiate champ and has kick boxing skills and off balance KO power Sceario: Tyson at 20 vs current Lidell Lidell would likely stay away from the hook...kick once to the leg and one jab to the jaw....over in 1 round - FACT

posted by moonymitz at 03:26 PM on February 15

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