FanDuel - WFBC

December 14, 2005

Great article. The fact of the matter is that white guys do play a different style of game. Jason Williams is the only white guy I can think of who played a self-consciously black style of game. The Barry brothers come close.

posted by vito90 at 01:28 PM on December 14

Bird's anger at being guarded by white guys cracks me up. One point I liked in this article was how intangible qualities like leadership are doled out more often on white athletes. I'd say the same about other sports, but Derek Jeter has the biggest intangibles in the world. Maybe he got them from his mom.

posted by rcade at 01:40 PM on December 14

Because they all look alike?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:50 PM on December 14

On the flip side, of course, is how few black players get compared with Larry Bird. I mean, would it have been the height of inappropriate comparison for Carmelo Anthony to be compared to Larry Bird? Or Shawn Marion? They seemed more similar than, say, Eric Montross. Or maybe that's the same side. Shit, all this race talk is making me tired. On the flip, flip side is the black guys complaining that if Bird was black, he'd be just another player. Yeah, uh, not quite.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:51 PM on December 14

Jason Williams is the only white guy I can think of who played a self-consciously black style of game Rex Chapman...

posted by MeatSaber at 02:05 PM on December 14

When did the NBA get a white player?

posted by JIM W. at 02:08 PM on December 14

Its a good article. I just we could look at this without the race card.

posted by daddisamm at 02:10 PM on December 14

Weedy, I can see the Carmelo-Bird comparison.....but Shawn Marion and Bird?? Are you kidding me? There's a reason they call the guy The Matrix, and it's not 'cause his game reminds one of a white Keanu....

posted by smithers at 02:26 PM on December 14

It's really kind of the same in every sport. You never see a white receiver compared to Jerry Rice or a white running back compared to Jerome Bettis (I know, I know. What white running backs? It's in college, too). I think people feel funny or uncomfortable making comparisons of people when they are a different color, like they're going to get complaints about it from various civil rights groups or something.

posted by dyams at 02:34 PM on December 14

Writers shouldn't feed into making the comparisons in the first place. When they write the stories, just be all-inclusive. And if coaches would be all-inclusive in their decisions to pick talent based on everything BUT race, then the comparisons would be more broadly based. John Riggins was one of the best running back in NFL history, and he ran, to me, like Jim Brown did: if he couldn't juke you, he ran you over. Lance Allworth was one of the best wide receivers ever, and he was white. Mentioning their race isn't necessary, though. They were just great.

posted by tadley86 at 02:56 PM on December 14

smithers - yes - Marion is a weak comparison - I was just grasping for rebouding forwards who can hit the three. There just aren't many of them (and one of them is Antoine Walker - but that comparison seems even weaker, though the numbers bear out better).

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 03:03 PM on December 14

Lance Allworth was one of the best wide receivers ever Don't forget Congressman Largent.

posted by willthrill72 at 03:50 PM on December 14

Does anyone remember reading an article from one of the NBA advanced statistical analysis sites that went through a bunch of players (they couldn't make comparisons to players who were around before 1970 I think) on the NBA's All-Time 50 and broke down the comparisons with present players? If I recall correctly, Dirk and Pierce are actually the closest thing to Larry Legend right now.

posted by panoptican at 04:10 PM on December 14

The silly ones are when they make comparisons between two players of different races, and have to remind us of that fact. For example: Josh Gibson - the black Babe Ruth

posted by grum@work at 04:10 PM on December 14

Writers shouldn't feed into making the comparisons in the first place. I so want to agree with this but then SpoFi would be a much lonelier place. Really, comparisons to any of the greats (i.e. Jordan, Bird, Magic, Rice, Bettis, etc.), from any sport, is just flat-out silly. Great players are going to come and go. Each one unique and incomparable to any past, present, or future player. Everyone will have a different view of the players and memories of how they played. I, for one, think Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever but will get into discussions *ahem*shouting matches*ahem* with others disputing this universally known truth. Anyway, end of rant, continue with your regularly scheduled program.

posted by redsnare at 04:13 PM on December 14

i.e. Jordan, Bird, Magic, Rice, Bettis, etc.), One of these people just don't belong. Hint- no its not the white guy. Bettis, great? Good yes but great?

posted by Lunger24 at 04:28 PM on December 14

Rex Chapman... If this is a reference to Rex's supposed dating preferences, well played. If not, that's ok too. As for white wide receivers, where's the love for Tom Wadell?

posted by yerfatma at 04:40 PM on December 14

There is only 1 Larry Legend! He was a great NBA baller. He made many of brothers angry(myself included) @ the Celtics all those years. Comparing these new White NBA counterparts is like comparing water to oil it just don 't mix

posted by MICHIGANDER at 05:37 PM on December 14

Bettis, great? Good yes but great? Bettis is more than good, and any comparison to him should be welcomed by other players. 13,581 yards and 87 touchdowns in his career? That's damn good. My point was any hard-running white back that may be in college (or the pros, as hard to believe as that is) will be compared to Moose Johnson, not Jerome Bettis.

posted by dyams at 05:41 PM on December 14

i suppose eduardo najera would be the mexican larry bird.

posted by ninjavshippo at 05:54 PM on December 14

Why does every white basketball player get compared to Larry Legend? because if sportswriters knew how to have an original idea or write well, they would be real journalists? Seriously, "White Men Cant Jump" is a funny movie but that was like 20 years ago now. Lots of white players can run, jump, dribble behind their back, and lots of black guys are slow and unathletic.

posted by drjimmy11 at 06:36 PM on December 14

and Reggie Miller was pretty clearly the closest thing to another Laryr Bird in recent history.

posted by drjimmy11 at 06:40 PM on December 14

Reggie Miller is pretty far from being close to Bird. Bird was a multi-dimensional talent. He could rebound, pass, handle the ball and defend. Miller clearly served one purpose, to put the ball in the basket.

posted by panoptican at 06:48 PM on December 14

Personally, I think Paul Pierce is a really good comparison, better than Dirk even given the difference in defensive ability between the two. Plus Pierce has always had that knack for making really screwy looking shots.

posted by panoptican at 06:49 PM on December 14

Reggie Miller was miles from The Larry. No way. Paul Pierce is much closer (one of the best rebounding guards in the game now), but still further from Larry than he is from Miller. Kevin Garnett would be a better comparison for me; though they have different games and Garnett is bigger, they can shoot, rebound and pass.

posted by yerfatma at 07:12 PM on December 14

Ok fellas, i agree with alot of the comments so far,but the one thats a little off is "jason williams playing black".Is it because he attempts a "fancy" pass instead of your standard "john stockton" bounce pass? I'll let some of you younger guys in on a secret. there were 2 guys that played the exact style of a jason williams/magic johnson(look off passing, no look passing,behind the back "street ball" type moves). Their names were "pistol" pete maravich and bob cousey*(not sure of exact spelling). Why is the "showboat" game or the "street" game referred to as black? Is it because of the Globe trotters? Pete and Bob(both white) were doing their thing before the Globe trotters were. Now, much respect to the early rucker park ballers, sure they gave birth to the hole "street ball" game. But they were not televised. White america didnt see alot of rucker ballers on TV(or the Globe trotters for that matter).But they did see "pistol" and cousey. they were doing their "moves" before carrying was "allowed". It wasnt until iceman, connie hawkins, dr J took the game "above" the rim that this style of playing was referred to as "black". Jason williams(white choclate) cant get above the rim,he plays just like Pistol pete,yet his style is "black". thats alittle odd to me. i think larry bird was the best forward to play the game.Remeber his remarkable "no look" passes? But if i labeled larry bird as playing black there would probably be a congressional hearing to prove he played "white". To me(if i were forced into labeling a color)I think bill russel and wes (un-seld haha)the guy from the bullets played "whiter" than pistol and cousey. So are these labels correct? I cant think of any other sport that labels playing styles by race (color). if they did it would sound something like this: hey barry sanders "jukes" black. Wayne gretzky "deeks" really white. Hey i think kirby puckett swung "white" like cal ripkin and pete rose, thats why they got alot of hits, but mark mcguire swung "black" like sammy sosa and hank aaron, thats why he got alot of home runs. no wait, the babe and roger M. were white. Did they swing "black"? I think mike schmidt was the only "white guy" who swung "white" and still got a lot of home runs. what the hell? Thank God that labeling playing styles by race is limited to basketball. I have a new question. if players are labeled a race when they play, is it limited to white and black?if so, what the hell label does yao ming get? if it was up to me,i'd just go back to middle school labels: do they suck? or do they not suck? its much easier this way.

posted by RZA at 07:17 PM on December 14

I was thinking Reggie in terms of being a great clutch shooter, great free throw shooter, and not particularly athletic, to put it kindly. In today's game, you could say McGrady maybe, although he is more of a guard and far far too athletic for it to be a good comparison.

posted by drjimmy11 at 07:36 PM on December 14

Also redsnane you,re correct... NO ONE EVER will be as good as Jordan... Whatv ever color..

posted by maclmn at 07:53 PM on December 14

posted by yerfatma at 07:54 PM on December 14

I hate when people make comparasons with other players. Each player has his own style. Dont put the pressure on the young guys so early, they are going to break down, exspecally with all of that jordan comparison

posted by NickNoodle at 07:55 PM on December 14

Aw come on yerfatma, this thread is going better than most race-related threads I've read here (as long as you ignore maclmn).

posted by panoptican at 08:28 PM on December 14

Two things. When you read the word 'race' in these articles, substitute the word 'culture' and you'll get much closer to the truth. I know a lot of people that are uncomfortable with 'blacks', but have no problem with people who happen to be black, asian, hispanic, etc. Its strange how some people go to a great deal of trouble to define themselves in a certain way, thats out of the mainstream, and then cry racism, when people don't want to be around it or respect it. Bill Cosby was right in some ways I think. Anecdotaly, my son was the only white kid on his HS team. He had a 'white' game for a 6'4 225 lb kid. Defense, rebounding, hi% jump shot, not a great ballhandler or leaper. He quit because he did not find it fun to be around the culture of his team mates on the floor. He remained close with a couple off the floor. He would really get pissed with playground antics, showboating, going for the spectacular dunk through traffic rather than hitting the open man,turning the ballover with needless fancy dribbling. Needless to say, his team did not win that much. When I asked him why he didn't want to play any more as a junior, he just said, its not fun and I don't want to be around that type of atmosphere. I'm not sure if you can generalize from this, but I think that is a microcosm about why many white middle class suburban kids do not play basketball any more.

posted by sfts2 at 10:34 PM on December 14

Also redsnane you,re correct... NO ONE EVER will be as good as Jordan... Whatv ever color.. Oh sure there will be. Maybe not next year, maybe not in ten years, but there's no reason why someone can't be as good or better than jordan in the future.

posted by justgary at 10:39 PM on December 14

Holy hell,i guess somebody didnt read what i wrote about pistol pete and bob cousey. they started show boating in the league.but isee that "some" people will think its the way "blacks" play because they say so. i guess "someone" will say thats why a "white guy" is leading the league in assts. I would say he passes because he cant finish and finish pretty. Its so damn funny when people knock something they cant do. i know(not personally) alot of people that are uncomfortable with blacks too, they're called the KKK. hey sfts2, i would sugguest locating some footage of pistol pete maravich* or bob cousey for your son to watch. they were some of the first to bring "play ground antics" and "showboating" as you called it to the league. Your son should have no problem with their "culture". they are both white. may i also sugguest that your son work on his ballhandling some. it doesnt matter the position or how big you are. ming/hakeem the dream/magic johnson/ all have/had great hands and ball control(wether in the post or otherwise). Also what if your son misses a scholarship because he has trouble with a teams culture. If he went pro he would have to get use to a different culture like yao ming/vlade divac and the rest of the international players. thank God larry legend was tought not to let that sort of thing bother him. Also your son may end up at college or a corperate job were he might have to get along with people that are different. he doesnt need to "conform" he just needs to "transform" with the renewing of his mind. remember, accepting something doesnt mean its acceptable it just teaches us patience. we also dont need to fear things we dont understand,but we should understand the things we fear. p.s.its funny you say "white game" then say:defense(NBA defensive 1st team all black)rebounding(leading rebounder in nba black)hi% jump shooting(ray allen black)not a great ballhandler(mutombo/manute bol/ben wallace/black/black/black)leaper. therefore the things you mention cannot be labeled as a "white game".

posted by RZA at 11:50 PM on December 14

RZA - "Holy hell,i guess somebody didnt read what i wrote about pistol pete and bob cousey." There are three possibilities: 1) What you wrote was so fucking sloppy with typographical and grammatical errors of one sort or another that nobody made it past the first paragraph. 2) Everybody who deciphered what you wrote agreed with alot of what you said so there was not much need for those people to respond. 3) All of the above. i answer #3

posted by vito90 at 01:02 AM on December 15

Vito, i didnt know you were going to grade my post ass goon. as i pointed out in previous threads, straighten out your errors before you point out someone elses. Vito: What you wrote was so fucking sloppy with typographical and grammatical errors of one sort or another that nobody made it past the first paragraph. this is hands down a run on sentence you substitute teacher. this nulifies your entire post. next time add to the topic. further the discussion(if you have that ability). there is enough pointless argument on this website. next time i'll try to keep within a barney reading level or a dora and boots format.

posted by RZA at 04:17 AM on December 15

Closest comparables to Larry Bird, based on career numbers (lower number = closer stats): .00 Larry Bird 23 10 6 .37 Grant Hill 22 8 6 .55 Elgin Baylor 23 10 4 .55 Chris Webber 21 10 4 .58 Kevin Garnett 21 12 5 .61 Charles Barkley 23 12 4 .66 Tracy McGrady 24 7 5 .68 Clyde Drexler 20 7 6 .71 Antoine Walker 18 9 4 .71 Karl Malone 27 11 4 .72 Julius Erving 23 8 4 .73 Scottie Pippen 18 7 6 .73 Paul Pierce 25 7 4 .74 Marques Johnson 20 8 4 .75 Brad Daugherty 20 10 4 .76 Billy Cunningham 20 9 4 .77 Shareef AbdurRahim 21 9 3 Grant Hill's the only particularly good match; and his game currently doesn't resemble his own career rates. Dirk (1.03) is #40, right between 'Nique and Jordan.

posted by mike goodman at 04:47 AM on December 15

RZA, stop trying to fight everyone. You clearly have no idea what a run-on sentence is (what do you think you're indicating with the bold?). You might try listening instead of yelling. I think vito's right: you make some decent points but tend to undercut yourself in the presentation of your points.

posted by yerfatma at 06:12 AM on December 15

this is hands down a run on sentence you substitute teacher. His comment wasn't a run-on sentence, though it could have used a few commas. You make some interesting points, but the lack of a space after punctuation and all the quote marks for "emphasis" make your comments difficult to read. (Putting quote marks around a word implies doubt -- for instance: Michael Jackson is an "excellent" babysitter.) You can deride us as substitute teachers for saying that, but I think you'd find it more enjoyable here if people read your comments instead of skipping over them.

posted by rcade at 06:55 AM on December 15

ass goon ? ? ? yerfatma: Is there any way that same picture can be attached to practically 3/4 of the posts/threads recently?

posted by dyams at 07:16 AM on December 15

There should be no comparisons to Larry Bird on Stats alone. What made him great was that he was an Beast in the clutch.. His Confidence and Cockiness was only matched by Micheal Jordan and Magic Johnson. During his time they often put Julius Erving in his class.. I don't think so.. (I'm black and from Philly). Find me somebody in this NBA now who you would want in the clutch over Larry Legend.. I challenge you.. He was a great Ball Player.. Period.. PS the next larry legend is adam morrison (at least that is what the media says)

posted by BrokeBrother at 07:29 AM on December 15

RZA, Yeah...right. You obviously have only watched basketball on TV, and have not raised any kids where they get exposed to the culture found in AAU, HS, or collegiate basketball and other sports. I've coached rec and low level travel basketball for about 12 years. I'm not an expert on the game or sociology for that matter. But I have been around it. What about you? The culture I am talking about is not 'black' culture, its 'street basketball' culture. Maybe its close to 'hip-hop' culture. I don't know. Its imprecise, but I know it when I see it, and I don't read about it, I see it on a playground or in a gym. Its funny how some will imply racism to someone they know nothing about behind the shield of a computer screen, when they would never have the courage to do so face to face. FYI, my son plays college baseball with many black and hispanic players, lives with a black teammate, hung out with his black HS basketball teammates even after stopping playing basketball. Save your sanctimonious pontificating. Go buy a red rubber nose. Back to intelligent discourse. Not too many championships in Mike Goodman's list. Baylor, Pippen, Dr. J off top of my head. I'd bet Bird had more (3) than all the rest combined x-Pippen. Talking about Jordan, I dunno whether he will always be the best of all-time or even really if he is, having never seen Russell, or O or some of the others play. But in Phil Jackson's book, he talks about the day after he won the 5th championship (I think), that he was in the gym and he shot 1000 jumpshots. I've always used this example to my kids and the kids I coach to illustrate what it takes to be a champion. That man's basketball skills are one thing, but his life skills are even better.

posted by sfts2 at 07:45 AM on December 15

Was trying to think like who's game today reminds me most of Bird's as I remember it...maybe Tracy MacGrady? Grant Hill when he's healthy? (see stats above) Not Webber or Garnett...

posted by sfts2 at 07:55 AM on December 15

Baylor retired early in the '72 season and was not playing in the Lakers title that year. Erving won 3 rings, 2 in the ABA. Cunningham also copped. One thing that was said about Larry Bird was that as much as he loved to win, he hated to lose. Think about it: everyone loves to win, more-or-less equally. Others really don't accept losing as an acceptable option. Jordan was like that, just as strongly. This is what rubs off on teammates, more than skills or work ethic. It's hard to imagine anyone better than Jordan, at both ends of the floor, who elevates his game in the playoffs Every Single Year. A couple of questions about this forum: -- What is it that is 'filtered' here? Apparently not people who mostly want to dig at others who post. -- I'm just realizing I'm the only one who uses a 'real' name. Have I made a big mistake in so doing?

posted by mike goodman at 08:07 AM on December 15

Mr. goodman. The only reason we know that is your real name is because U just told us.. I don't see what that has to do with anything..

posted by BrokeBrother at 08:11 AM on December 15

In general, the greatest players tend to be the most unique. And they are the same guys who don't seem to be 'pure' point guards (Magic), SG (Jordan), etc. Bird had SF skills, but rebounded better than PF-C McHale. Karl Malone (PF) passed better than any other F on his teams. The best forwards aren't strictly PF or SF, but just F; the best guards can be SG or PG. When Jordan played point, he WAS the best PG. He was also the best SF. Some of the best centers are assigned as PF (especially these days). In olden times, your best big man was your center. The closest resembler I found to Kevin Garnett's MVP season was Wilt Chamberlain in 1968. Of course, his numbers have to be scaled down from a milieu of 115-point games with 65 rebounds per team.

posted by mike goodman at 08:20 AM on December 15

Hey mike, most people on this site use their real name. You've got BrokeBrother (that's Mr.Brother), yerfatma, rcade,sfts2, and yours truly, Desert Dog. Well actually, my real name isn't 'Desert' Dog. It's Dessert Dog. But Desert Dog sounds more sports oriented. You can call me K9.

posted by Desert Dog at 10:07 AM on December 15

It's the internet Mike, people who use their real name are in the extreme minority. I don't see how it could be a mistake though, unless you suffer from paranoia. As to what's filtered, in theory, it's sports news, articles and sites of interest. Not users really. We like to think that we're a little bit more intelligent than the average sports site and actually that's true to some extent. There's a lot of good discussion that goes on (and hell, if you'd post more... there would be even more good discussion). But you can't really do anything about the idiots who post here. Sports forums seem to attract those sorts.

posted by panoptican at 11:30 AM on December 15

No one will ever be quite like Larry Bird. He had a heart and a game at a level like Jordan. He could be considered the best if he had the athleticism also. He couldn't jump, he wasn't fast, he was just good. T-MAC is very athletic. KG is also, and he's practically a center. Paul Pierce is very athletic, but he isn't even close to Bird as far as skill goes. He needs to come a little closer to a title before his talents can be compared. Adam Morrison does play like Bird in that he is good, a scorer, and white. That's all though.

posted by Snikastyle at 12:07 PM on December 15

Grant Hill HA HA HA hahhahhhahhhahha! Ok, I'm done. No wait. Hahhahahhahahhahhahahhaha! really, there is more to the game than stats. There is more to being a basketball player than being born with a silver spoon in your mouth, scoring the softest 20 points in league history for a few years, then getting hurt often enough to let people invent a fiction that you used to be a great player.

posted by drjimmy11 at 01:11 PM on December 15

lunger24 re: Bettis - I was merely listing those players mentioned earlier in the thread, although, I'd be hard-pressed to argue Bettis is NOT a great player.

posted by redsnare at 01:47 PM on December 15

Jimmy, that was my first thought at that list also. "Grant Hill? C'mon, that's fucking sacreligious!"

posted by wfrazerjr at 03:49 PM on December 15

Its funny how some will imply racism to someone they know nothing about behind the shield of a computer screen, when they would never have the courage to do so face to face Man your just a hypocrite. You know about my culture because you see it when you coach a grade school/ collegiate level basketball team? Does the previous comment you made inply that i wouldnt be man enough to speak my opinion to someone i dont know personally? Is that your way of saying that you would kick my ass or something otherwise ralted to it if we met in person? Well i wont feed into this to much, but i'll tell what we can do. i'll agree to post my picture on this thread(provided someone gives me the html string to do it) and you post your picture. then we'll take a survey to see who everyone thinks would be afraid to speak their opinion out from behind the confines of a pc based on appearence only. Or you can just continue to talk a good game. Yeah...right. You obviously have only watched basketball on TV, and have not raised any kids where they get exposed to the culture found in AAU, HS, or collegiate basketball and other sports.What about you? I lived in sheffield park(low income housing project), elkton MD for 25 years. Then i lived on 5th street in Wilmington DE. I'm of mixed race (itialian,black). I'm a fraud/ID theft investigator for a large bank in downtown Wilmington. I volunteer at Abundant Life Worship Center as the Athletic Director for after school programs. I aslo speak at juvenille detention centers in Baltimore MD. I received a partial schollarship to attend the university of MD(eastern shore) along with a very good friend of mine Larry Webster(defensive tackle for the the Balt. Ravens the year they won the superbowl/he also played for the Miami Dolphins the year shula broke the all time wins record/he's 1 of the guys who carried shula of the field) who attended Elkton high as well. i have 5 step-children all black ages 15-26 3 of which are all-state in football, basketball and baseball respectively. My wife graduated from Virginia Union University with a masters in early childhood education. She now heads up marketing for the entire east coast division of the Girl scouts of America. "I obviously only know about basketball or hiphop culture from TV'? I am hiphop culture. My children are hiphop cutlure. what are you so afraid of? Stop thinking we all act like Ron artest. We are not going to get you. We dont want or need to snatch your purse or rob a convienence store. The only advice i was giving your son, was to not be intimidated by any culture or person, like larry bird, pete maravich,jerry west,billy cunningham, and most of all steve nash. You think he wants to quit because he might get traded to the sixers and have to get along with AI and Cwebb? You should be teaching your son and the kids you coach how to deal with things such as this. But it stands to reason that you obviously have some short comings in this area yourself. I only pray your son can break loose from the generational curse that plagues you today. I pray your son will be so motavational to others that they will want to be like him instead of people like ron artest and such. Maybe your son is the one thats suppose to lead other young men that dont have a father as involved in their lifes as his is. But how can he if you tell him its okay to quit because you "dont really like or understand the culture either". The Bible states that we should not return evil for evil, rather overcome evil with good. Good luck ps. my appologies for spelling or grammatical errors.

posted by RZA at 07:46 PM on December 15

yerfatma, your kiiling me man. why do you take each post so personal? I'm not even addressing you in it. yelling???? These are typed words man. You're like the abused puppy that ducks his head and hides when someone tries to pet him? And as far as fighting 'everyone" goes. I didnt know that disagreeing with people was fighting. You spofi veterans kill me. The only time i've addressed you or rcade was after i was addressed. Like you two are the posting police. Comment about the topic or move on. You 2 are like 2 critics that try to bait people you disagree with into arguements. For example scroll up. rcade you said it best in another thread, if you dont like whats typed,dont read it. yerfatma, in another thread you offered your opinion to me when i was debating something with someone else. Do you actually think by harrassing me the way you do, that you'll scare me away? Are you that much of a control freak? If you see my name at the bottom of a post just skip it man. Im not forcing you to read my opinion. if this is the only communication you have in life then im sorry about that,but damn, i cant take it anymore. you talk about me "fighting people", then you follow me from thread to thread, jumping in and giving your 2 cents. relax man you'll live longer. Then popping in on threads and posting a picture of a train wreck. If thats your opinion, you're entilted. But dont be hypocritical and say that im fighting,when you're obviously trying to insight a confrontation. i'll make a deal with you, you dont address me and i wont address you. Are you mature enough to agree with that? or are you going to continue crying and complaining every damn time we have differnet views or i present myself some what aggressively in a manner that you dont approve of? Im not trying to score points or win favor from any other people who read this. i dont need a shout out/pat on the back or any other thumbs up from my buddies here to make me feel good about myself. if thats why you're here , good luck to you. I'll save you some time before you respond: you're the man, you're cool,you really told him,great comeback,you're witty.

posted by RZA at 08:58 PM on December 15

seems like there is possible haterade on offer here. The comment about the son not digging the team he was on - i dunno, i took that as not being into a "me first" culture that the team had. if the team won't pass the ball to the open man then their priorities might be a little wonky. and that environment may be poison for a kid that just wants to play and enjoy the game without thinking he's building up to an NBA career. So my take was that there had not been a condemnation of anybody's culture, not racist. but maybe the way I read it was the way I wanted to read it.

posted by gspm at 09:05 PM on December 15

gspm, Thats obviously exactly what I was talking about. RZA, have another coffee. What I wrote was my way of saying...exactly what I said. I'm not afraid of of you or the 'hip-hop culture' as found in much of the basketball that I've been exposed to. My son wasn't intimidated either, and he wasn't unexposed to this culture either. He was immersed in it for 4 or 5 years. He came to understand it quite well. He made a choice to a) play a sport that he had passion for - baseball, b) get a negative influence out of his life. All in all, it was very positive move for him, and a choice that he evaluated and made at age 16. You talk about teaching him to deal with it, he did, he made a decision to get it out of his life. Simple.

posted by sfts2 at 09:44 PM on December 15

Well, maybe some people are just average players. but lets get something straight, if you are saying that the culture you were referring to was a "me first" culture(as gspm indicated) why call it a streetball culture? if these young kids in school grow up on the street, then thats were they grow up. lets get something else straight, when you use phrases like "exposed to", and "immersed in" you shouldnt wonder why people take that the wrong way. you act like it ruined you and him as well, or it would have ruined you and him aswell. Michael Jordan was one of the greatest players. He shot more than anyone on his team. Larry Bird would jack up 3's at any point he wanted to. Do you think their "me-first" influence would have been bad on your son? You remark that your son got away from it. Its sounds to me like the compitition got a little tougher. We have some guys on the team my stepson is on that basically ride the pine. And im sure that they would say something negative about the team if they quit aswell. Nobody likes to admit that they couldnt compete and they got tired of coming off the bench. the funny thing you admit is that your son continued to hang around his black and hispanic friends after leaving the team. A persons culture/personality stays with them. those boys didnt stop being street ballers when they got home. So its safe to stay that the culture didnt negativly influence him at all. Those boys are the same off the court as they are on it, just like AI, jermaine o'neal, stephon marburry. So, i think we can draw the conclussion as to why your son "got it out of his life", but kept hanging around the 'culture". Hey,everybody cant be a starter. Im sure he'll do better at baseball. He doesnt have to hope the pitcher throws the ball to him. Its a requirment for the sport. PS. i never advised him to deal with it, rather to rise above it,but i can see why you wouldnt want him to do anything like that.

posted by RZA at 12:14 AM on December 16

Have you read anything I wrote? I have said, word to the effect of 'I don't know how to describe it or what to call it." Then you question why I call it 'streetball culture.' I have said 'He was the leading rebounder and high scorer for his team.' Then you talk about how he 'can't be a starter.' You show a remarkable lack of reading comprehension. It sounds to me like you don't have a fucking clue. I mean, really, read my post if you are going to respond...or else don't. My point in the original post (again, please read slowly) was that he stopped playing hs basketball because he didn't want to be on the floor with kids who played that kind of style, AND that he continued to hang around with a number of them. And that I think (but am not sure) that this is why you see a lot less suburban kids trying to play basketball at a higher level. Its not a black/white thing. The comment about 'white' game was in quotes. You are the jerk who turned this into a personal tirade against the 'racism' you think I display. You talk about 'being' the hip-hop culture. Call your wife 'bitch' or 'ho'? Use street slang all the time in your work at the bank? You seem like you ARE part of this culture, you don't consider your words, take the time to express yourself in proper language or proper grammar, and try to verbally intimidate me and others, and in fact intrepreted a very clear statement as a precursor to violence. Boy, I'm glad your counseling kids and working in a 'Christian' youth org...in Washington, and not near me. Christian, right. In your opinion it sounds to me like you think I should raise my kids to want to be around this type of behavior, and that they have bad character because they experienced it, evaluated it, and rejected it. Thanks, I think I'll pass. PS. 'You should be teaching your son and the kids you coach how to deal with things such as this.' Read your own fucking posts.

posted by sfts2 at 06:48 AM on December 16

Have you read anything I wrote? I have said, words to the effect of 'I don't know how to describe it or what to call it." Then you question why I call it 'streetball culture.' I have said 'He was the leading rebounder and high scorer for his team.' Then you talk about how he 'can't be a starter.' You show a remarkable lack of reading comprehension. It sounds to me like you don't have a fucking clue. I mean, really, read my post if you are going to respond...or else don't. My point in the original post (again, please read slowly) was that he stopped playing hs basketball because he didn't want to be on the floor with kids who played that kind of style, AND that he continued to hang around with a number of them. And that I think (but am not sure) that this is why you see a lot less suburban kids trying to play basketball at a higher level. Its not a black/white thing. The comment about 'white' game was in quotes. You are the jerk who turned this into a personal tirade against the 'racism' you think I display. You talk about 'being' the hip-hop culture. Call your wife 'bitch' or 'ho'? Use street slang all the time in your work at the bank? You seem like you ARE part of this culture, you don't consider your words, take the time to express yourself in proper language or proper grammar, and try to verbally intimidate me and others, and in fact intrepreted a very clear statement as a precursor to violence. Boy, I'm glad your counseling kids and working in a 'Christian' youth org...in Washington, and not near me. Christian, right. In your opinion it sounds to me like you think I should raise my kids to want to be around this type of behavior, and that they have bad character because they experienced it, evaluated it, and rejected it. Thanks, I think I'll pass. PS. 'You should be teaching your son and the kids you coach how to deal with things such as this.' Read your own fucking posts.

posted by sfts2 at 06:49 AM on December 16

yerfatma, in another thread you offered your opinion to me when i was debating something with someone else . . . Do you actually think by harrassing me the way you do, that you'll scare me away? Are you that much of a control freak? Here's the thing: I'm going to provide you with my opinion regardless. There are no private chat rooms here, so suck it up. As to harassing you, I think you're a valuable poster, so I'd prefer you didn't burn out turning every thread into a fistfight. But read that as me be controlling, that's ok with me. Now go to your room.

posted by yerfatma at 07:16 AM on December 16

.."we can draw the conclussion"... Is someone beating his head on the wall?

posted by mike goodman at 09:35 AM on December 16

SftS, Thank you for affirming what i was trying to say. "do you call your wife bitch or a ho" Thats the exact type of thinking i was trying to get you to admit. you have proved my point. Im sure you're happy now that your son is not around black young men that all call thier mothers bitch or ho. To lump hiphop culture in with a few rappers that call groupies bitch or ho is exactly what some of white suburban parents think of our culture. All they see or know is eminem music because thats what their teenagers turn to instead of forming a decent relationship with their parents. Do you think russel simmons, or the members of destinys child call their wife or mothers bitches and ho's? You are a narrow minded racist bigot and you just proved it. i will no longer try to explain anything to you. You have proven your narrow mindedness for the last time. You spin things the way your boy Bill o'reily does. To ask if i call my wife a bitch just because thats all you chose to notice about an entire culture proves your lack of understanding. i feel the sorriest for your son. First you say he left the game because he didnt want to be a part of the culture. Then some one offers you a way out of what you really meant, so you take it, "yea i meant a me first culture". Then you offer this bs "do you call your wife bitch or ho"? I can only imagine what your son hides from you. you have no ides how embarrased he is when he brings his friends around you. You are why he quit the team, you useless weak man. you talk out of pure fear. fear of something you dont understand and never will. You remark that i dont comprehend what you say. Thats the first thing you said right this entire conversation. I will never understand a man like you. Something comes along that you dont understand ,so you knock it. You catagorize everything you fear into 1 generalized lump. The sad thing is, your the exact parent that i have to make excuses for day in and day out. I try to teach kids just like yours how to deal with people such as yourself. You are out of touch with reality today. You have no idea the things your son is doing or the things that he is apart of. Its time to stop being judgmental, prejudice and narrow minded. Spend some time with your kid man. He is the true victim. Its funny to see people like you grasp at straws when someone like me pulls their card. The truth of the matter is, you are the one who will address this from behind a pc, and not have the guts to discuss it in person. No wonder you made the comment that you made. You were talking about yourself. Why do you think your son turns to his friends and not you. All you care about is what you know. Your the one that wanted him off that team. He quit to make you happy. Parenst like you ruin their kids. You hold them back from their true potential. You only want them to succeed at what you think they should. The sad thing is, you have to hear this from someone on the internet that hardly knows you. Grow up, stop being afraid. The most terrible thing about a person like you is, you know you really feel this way, but you're afraid to come out and say it. you'll beat around the bush, but you wont out right admit it. Again due to fear. You want to be politically correct, but its killing you. If you're a real man, just admit it. You're predjudice. I'd have more respect for you if you would stand up and say it. but a man like you never will. keep on beating around the bush man. You'll go far in life. The sad thing is, you'll do it alone.

posted by RZA at 01:43 PM on December 16

yerfatma, i too think you're are a valuable poster. However, if we disagree, lets just agree to disagree. I obviously didnt come to a forum based website to have private discusions. It just seems that you dont want anyone taking personal shots except yourself. Stick to the topic. For example, "stop yelling" has nothing to do with the thread. I was responding to someone. It wasnt a generlized comment about the thread or directed to you in anyway. You dont have to read it man unless they pay you to keep some kind of order or something. If you dont want to read what i have written, i wont be offended, just move on. You say you wont move on, you're going to "give" me your opinion regardless right (your words). Well if you feel that way, so do i. AGAIN, lets agree or disagree then move on. When you carry a personal arguement, disagreement, or a down right disliking of someone from thread to thread, it tends to ruin post after post and people dont want to read that BS. So, i wont bash everything you write or make unsolicited personal comments to you at all. If you feel the need to do that to me, then i'll just get use to it or ignore it.

posted by RZA at 01:58 PM on December 16

Fair enough.

posted by yerfatma at 02:54 PM on December 16

SFTS, just one last thing (you're getting exposed all the way around) How the hell was your son the leading scorer and leading rebounder of his team? That can only mean 1 thing. Your son gets the rebound, dribbles down court, then shoots. How the hell can you or he say the other players dont pass the ball. If he was leading the team in assists you would have mentioned it. So we must assume that someone else led the team in assists. Yet you say his teamates played with a me first culture. It sounds to me like he didnt get the ball because he was the one that wouldnt pass it. How can you lead a team in scoring and not have people pass the ball to you? Answer: He was a gunner, a me first player. So with that proven, there is only one other reason he left, and the answer is YOU. I would love to see you explain this one without making yourself look like anymore of an ass. I know a lot of people that are uncomfortable with 'blacks', Im sure you do. All your friends, yourself included. He would really get pissed with playground antics, showboating, going for the spectacular dunk through traffic rather than hitting the open man,turning the ballover with needless fancy dribbling. Needless to say, his team did not win that much. When I asked him why he didn't want to play any more as a junior, he just said, its not fun and I don't want to be around that type of atmosphere. I'm not sure if you can generalize from this, but I think that is a microcosm about why many white middle class suburban kids do not play basketball any more. Implying that all black kids play that way. And implying that teams with all black kids dont win that much. thats why Middle class white kids dont play anymore? What planet are you from you complete idiot. How can anyone agree with this racist clown. As if a team with 5 clones of your son would have been undefeated. Your telling lies about something. Which is it? You're not sure if "we" can generalize from this? We dont have to, thats what you are doing. Again your white middle american teenage boys are running around calling themselves nigga and listening to eminem and jay-z music with their pants around their ankles. I've come to the conclussion that you're a pointless joke. Respond as much as you want. Do what you have to do to make yourself feel better. Im done with you. Save your sanctimonious pontificating. Go buy a white sheet. Back to intelligent discourse.

posted by RZA at 08:13 PM on December 16

I think, at one point Larry Bird was being discussed???

posted by Snikastyle at 02:55 AM on December 27

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