04/16/24
November 02, 2005
Fisher's actual flaw? Artlessness: I know some African-Americans get upset when it is suggested they have some natural advantage with speed, because it implies they didn't really earn their preeminence. I appreciate that, but it cannot justify us -- like DeBerry -- denying what is right before our eyes.
2nded.
posted by garfield at 04:04 PM on November 02, 2005
Judging by previous threads, this one's going to run, and run, and run (pun intended).
posted by owlhouse at 04:37 PM on November 02, 2005
Deford is having a "jimmy the greek moment". Under Dr. Deford's logic , if i lived from 1920 to about 1940 I could not "deny...what is right before our eyes" that Jewish people were the best fighters in america " (they had earned over 25 championships in that time period) or I would assume now that white people are the worlds best swimmers or skaters because, "right before our eyes" we never see a black swimming champion or a black hockey player (rarely). He says in the story that "I myself do not pretend to know why this is so. I am not a physiologist, an anthropologist or a sociologist." No Frank, your a racist!
posted by lawjock at 05:16 PM on November 02, 2005
Give it up. Comparing DeFord's nuanced statement to that of Jimmy the Greek is insulting. Please point out the racist statements DeFord makes. And all the high-level white RBs, CBs and WRs in the NFL.
posted by yerfatma at 06:37 PM on November 02, 2005
or I would assume now that white people are the worlds best swimmers or skaters because, "right before our eyes" we never see a black swimming champion or a black hockey player (rarely). Go to a hockey tryout, go to a swim meet. Check out all those black athletes, right? Your comparisons don't hold water. No Frank, your a racist! He admits that although the fastest athletes tend to be black, he has NO idea why. You take this and scream that he's a racist. It's people like you who are ready to ignorantly yell racist at the first sign of discussion that stops discussion in its tracks.
posted by justgary at 07:20 PM on November 02, 2005
Lawjock, I think your references fail to meet the relevant test. 25 boxing titles in a 20 year span is good but not nearly as indicative as Deford's claim. As for the swimming, hockey and such, well, how many non-whites are active in those sports? Anyway, he's saying that evidence across all sports where speed is a key performance factor shows that, for reasons he cannot explain, black people are simply faster. It's not just the NFL but also the NBA and soccer leagues around the world where this is shown day in and out. Even on the American national squad the two fastest players are Damarcus Beasley and Eddie Johnson, though Landon Donovan could probalby give them a race. Racism is calling out people as bad, in one way or another, based on their skin color. Deford, and those of us agreeing with him here, are doing the opposite.
posted by billsaysthis at 07:20 PM on November 02, 2005
I have yet to be convinced of any inherent genetic advantage related to 'black' people - simply because it's a poor way of describing a very widely differentiated group of people. They're not all from the same place, or share the same evolved advantage because their skin colour is more or less cosmetic - and these advantages that DeFord is attributing to 'black' people seem much more advanced, or more specific to a shared bloodline that has been completely mingled - much like the rest of us. So while I believe that, there is no mistaking some of the realities of what Deford - who is a fanastic writer, SI is lucky to have him - is simply pointing out. Yes, he's absolutely correct - and the cause of which, be it mysteriously genetic, or related to culture, economics and politics he doesn't claim to have the slightest knowledge of. He's damn right about the need to be able to talk about it, too.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:11 PM on November 02, 2005
Show me...Craig James, standard bearer for Caucasian running backs everywhere. Sportin' the old Washington Federals colors, no less. 
Speaking of the USFL, James tacked on another six TDs (rushing and receiving), 884 yards rushing and 342 yards receiving in a brief career with the "Feds," as we lovingly called them back in their salad days.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 09:39 PM on November 02, 2005
Mike Hohensee!
posted by ajaffe at 07:59 AM on November 03, 2005
There are two different theories going on. One is that black athletes at high levels (college and pro) are faster than the white athletes at that level. The second is that black people are faster than white people. While the first one certainly appears to be true, it does not follow that second one is as well. That is the problem with DeBerry's comments and Fisher's support. They are assuming that because the first one is true, then the second one must also be.
posted by bperk at 08:07 AM on November 03, 2005
My senior drill instruter at parris island told us that "dark green privates" could not swim because of some missing bone theory. We went to water safety class and sure enough the black privates sank like a rock. He convinced a lot of people of this and we could not deny "what was right before our eyes". Do whites swim better because of physiology? Do you think it might be they have little acsess to pools in the ghetto? In their backyard? My DI was a war hero and a good marine but he was a red neck from alabama and didnt know better. Jimmy the Greek was a wise guy street hustler who knew point spreads and gambling. Deford is a Princeton Grad. He should know better!
posted by lawjock at 10:16 AM on November 03, 2005
Back to this eh? I'm going to use another poster's example I dont remember who it was or if they were even on this board. In footall almost all of the great QBs are white, college and pro. So if we go by what we see, whites are the best throwers by race, the best readers of defenses by race, and have the best overall FB IQ. Does this really make sense? I dont think so. Most teachers are white and female, does that mean that they are better at it then other classifications? Do you see where I am going with this? If more of the Uber white atheletes wanted to play FB at the skill positions they could, but across the nation they are going into other sports, just like uber black atheletes are shunning the likes of soccer and baseball. I assure you it takes a lot of training to get world class speed. Deion entered college running in the high 4.4s when he left he was running that awesome 4.21. Fast twitch and slow twitch both have to be developed if you want to use them no matter what color you are.
posted by Drallig9399 at 11:54 AM on November 03, 2005
Reversing the equation does not make sense: whites get opportunities to play RB, CB, etc. They've never been looked over due to race.
posted by yerfatma at 12:57 PM on November 03, 2005
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/31/opinion/31mon4.html?incamp=article_popular Three points to begin... -- The above article doesn't make Deford's column seem silly, but it gives you pause before swallowing Frank's thoughts whole. -- Was that BYU-Compton that beat Air Force by 21 points last weekend? -- For the record, there was no real reason to send the guy to the stocks over this and as Mark May said on College Game Day, the positive might be that the Academy might redouble its efforts to get more people of color into the institution. But I wonder if we're squeamish about talking about race, or are we too eager to talk about race? It seems to change often, depending on the level of convenience for the person who's considering the question. When race relations enter the picture in sports, the knee-jerk reaction in most cases is to call it pulling out the "race card". The discourse surrounding TO, Willingham, dress code and the NBA age limit would be fine examples. But funny enough, Fisher DeBerry found a way to not pull the "race card", even though he threw race into an area -- AFA's sudden inability to win games -- where its relevance was debatable, and that's being kind. After all, maybe DeBerry is too old. That's what the Penn State supporters said about Paterno. Maybe the offense is a bit antiquated. That was the old saw in Nebraska when its teams started losing. Only a zillion reasons why football programs lose steam, and other than a lack of good coaching, you thought every excuse had been used. Until now. Citing lack of black athletes for being unsuccessful after 20 years of winning without them, by and large? DeBerry might be artless, but he's damn creative. Whatever. It would be nice to see people be consistent in their reactions to instances when race is invoked on sports.
posted by jackhererra at 01:27 PM on November 03, 2005
Anybody heard of Ryan Brewer, former high school Back of the Year in Ohio? He was a white running back. Ohio State didn't even offer him a scholarship. He went to South Carolina and scored three or four TDS against the Suckeyes in a bowl game. He was kind of small but super fast, just like another Back of the Year who's name escapes me. This guy got a full ride to OSU and I believe has since dropped out. He wasn't as good of a player but he was black. Stereotypes go both ways sometimes. I just don't think OSU thought a white running back could make it.
posted by tselson at 02:01 PM on November 03, 2005
yerfatma, answer my question. If its ok to say blacks run real well, because their black then why cant I say them white boys throw real good since almost all upper level qbs are white? do you really not see how stupid that is. So are blacks more predisposed to crime since we make up such a large percentage of inmates while not making a significant dent in the population? I just had an epiphany, white dudes cant rap 95% of rappers are black. lmfao
posted by Drallig9399 at 02:44 PM on November 03, 2005
do you really not see how stupid that is. The question or the logical flaw in your argument you refuse to address?
posted by yerfatma at 03:40 PM on November 03, 2005
Barry Sanders' choices out of high school -- Oklahoma State, Iowa State and Kansas State (not the decent K-State)? I think he's better than Ryan Brewer. Today. In general, whether programs are big on small, shifty guys depends on who's doing the recruiting. Oklahoma State was a Top 20 program when Sanders was being recruited, the other three suitors were horrible, which means that the quality of the program was meaningless. The philosophy was the determinant. Ohio State's recruiting under Cooper might be completely different than recruiting under Tressel. Secondly, being a state's Player of the Year is a nice laurel, but it's not going to get you a roster spot any more than a Heisman Trophy helped Eric Crouch or Jason White in the NFL draft. I'm not saying that stereotyping doesn't go both ways, and Brewer was definitely overlooked, but it's not like NFL teams looking at a talented white athlete like Matt Jones and saying, "Nah." Like any case of a person trying to attain a goal, conditions are key. Parents, youth mentors, friends play a role, as do recruiters at the next level who see "outside the box". To address yerfatma's comment, it's tough to become Terrell Owens if your parents are shuttling you off to soccer and lacrosse practice. So while a talented white skill player will get his chance to succeed -- Sehorn, Matt Jones, Chrebet, Dwight, etc. -- the pool is shrinking because the race has been lost before it's begun.
posted by jackhererra at 04:08 PM on November 03, 2005
Matt Jones is interesting, if he happened to be black I'm sure someone, somewhere would say, that he wasn't drafted at the position he played in college (qb) because he was black. Since he is white we can't blame race on why he is being transformed into a receiver. Actually, his speed is better than his arm, and since I've seen him outrun entire defenses, I'm kind of starting to wonder if he was black, he may have been touted as the next Mike Vick. Point taken on Brewer perhaps not fitting the OSU mold as a RB . However, from what I remember he dreamed of playing for the Buckeyes and after watching him kill the Bucks that New Years day, I could only conclude that they couldn't spare a scholarship for him because he was something that they perceived as not existing, a good, shifty white running back. Actually, now that I think about it, Matt Jones' speed is "right before our eyes" there is no denying that this white guy can outrun almost anyone, black or white.
posted by tselson at 04:55 PM on November 03, 2005
I don't remember what Jones' workout numbers were, but they were pretty freakish. If Jones also had Vick's arm and the same running style -- though both have the speed -- I'd buy the comparison between the two. Of course, someone like me would wonder (not say) if a black guy like Jones was being transferred because he's black. But once again, we're not talking about equivalent situations. Jones had already performed at other positions, something you can't say for guys like current college stars Vince Young and Troy Smith, or former college stars like Woody Dantzler, Antawn Randle-El or Kordell Stewart. The NAACP didn't exactly show up when Anquan Boldin ended up as a WR in the NFL.
posted by jackhererra at 05:43 PM on November 03, 2005
Mike Vick should not be compared to Matt Jones, I agree. I just remember watching him against the Gators...I thought, tall white quarterback...sack him! Then all of a sudden he was off to the races...he blew by the whole team. I remember saying something along the line of "holy shit...that dude is fast!" Why did I say that? Because he was tall and white, I never thought he could be so fast. Wasn't Boldin the sidekick in the free shoes scandal?? I think he was always a WR?
posted by tselson at 11:06 PM on November 03, 2005
You might be thinking of the Dillard's foolishness with Warrick and Coles, but Boldin wasn't part of that, and he might have been in middle school when the free shoes scandal occured. Two guys don't make a trend, but going back to the idea of conditioning, both Jones and Urlacher (another freak) were guys from smallish towns, which would seem to have two advantages. One, no one really tells you that you're not supposed to be as quick, fast or jump as high as the black guys. Secondly, the sports offerings tend to be slim. So chances are that you can't dodge the top three sports plus track unless you plan on participating in debate all year.
posted by jackhererra at 01:40 AM on November 04, 2005
Yerfatma, I am not going to argue with you. I am black and I will tell you that being black doesnt equal being blessed with speed. The speed really kicks in through DEVELOPMENT. If you dont train the muscles through repeated stimulation then they will not perform. I promise you work ethic in the weightroom and at the track, are better indicators of how fast a kid will be than his skin color. Go across the country this spring and look at the track teams then look at the baseball teams. The kids are just going in different directions, some want to be immobile the whole game and others are trying to perfect their stride in the curve. To anyone posting on this thread if you would know better than to size up atheletes based on their color alone. To all the geeks just posting STFU!
posted by Drallig9399 at 10:47 AM on November 04, 2005
Penn State coach offers his praise for black athletes I promise you work ethic in the weightroom and at the track, are better indicators of how fast a kid will be than his skin color. See, you solved the great mystery. White people are slower than black people because they're lazy. If only white people had a better work ethic the NFL would be filled with white running backs. Thanks!
posted by justgary at 11:11 AM on November 04, 2005
Nice to make his statement out to be something that it wasn't. How about white people aren't constantly reminded that the only way to success is through athletics? There are a million discussions you can have about race that do not require you generalizing and stereotyping an entire race. JoePa merely gives credit to black athletes for success. That is not the same as calling a whole race of people faster than another whole race of people.
posted by bperk at 11:36 AM on November 04, 2005
Bperk, I'm not sure who you're arguing with. I added the link to paterno because it has to do with the discussion. The quote is from drallig, and my interpretation is exactly what he said.
posted by justgary at 02:07 PM on November 04, 2005
I stand corrected again...yes Coles is who I was thinking of. Deion Sanders? I'm pretty sure he was the fastest six year old in the neighborhood, just like he was the fastest twenty year old in college. Like the great Paul Brown always said in regards to drafting..."you can't teach size and you can't teach speed." You can perfect your individual talents through training, but you have to be born with the talent.
posted by tselson at 02:19 PM on November 04, 2005
Bperk, I'm not sure who you're arguing with. I added the link to paterno because it has to do with the discussion. The quote is from drallig, and my interpretation is exactly what he said. Drallig said that working out in a gym and at a track are better indicators of speed than race. So, if you take ten people of different races and they race, then group them into two categories, one by race and one by training, the group that trains & works out will be faster than the group composed of black people. How does your statement follow from that?
posted by bperk at 02:48 PM on November 04, 2005
I promise you work ethic in the weightroom and at the track, are better indicators of how fast a kid will be than his skin color. You take a group of kids sitting on their asses eating burger king vs. a group working out and eating right, sure, it's probably more important than race. Although I'd still argue with you that when it comes to speed it's hard to increase it. Speed is more natural. I can train for the next year and my speed improvements will be minor. Someone who actually has speed could still roll out of bed and smoke me. That said, even if you agree with his statement what does it get you? There are plenty of white football players working out just as hard as black football players. To say that the black players, or teams with black players, are faster than white players because of dedication in the weight room is comical. It might show the difference between two random groups of people, but that wasn't the topic. I don't have the answer, deford doesn't have the answer, and drallig surely doesn't either.
posted by justgary at 03:33 PM on November 04, 2005
I think it is quite possible that all of you are correct. Take a look at NYC or Indiana and see all of the great basketball players that come from there. Then take a look at Florida and Florida has great football players. The reason is not some innate ability to play that particular sport, but the emphasis on the sport. If nearly every kid in Florida plays football, you are going to discover the football talent. If most of the kids in Indiana or NYC play basketball, then you will likely find the kids with talent. The same is true across racial lines. If most black kids try football or some speedy activity, then you are likely to find the black kids with speed. There is a greater focus on athletics as the ticket to a better life in the black community. As a result, more black kids get involved in sports and the ones with talent are identified. That does not mean that there are not tons of Matt Jones-types whose talent or speed were never identified. And, the net result is that the guys with speed are the black athletes.
posted by bperk at 03:50 PM on November 04, 2005
That's an excellent essay. Thanks for the link.