FanDuel - WFBC

October 22, 2005

Sox 5, Astros 3: Though some questioned manager Ozzie Guillen's decision to field a bullpen in the World Series, they came up huge in the eighth inning of Game 1, striking out the side with runners at first and third to preserve a narrow White Sox victory on Chicago's South Side.

posted by rcade to baseball at 10:40 PM - 101 comments

Did anyone else see the fan banner celebrating the Sox as the "1919 AL champs" in the ninth inning? That's the Black Sox! I had to go back on Tivo to see if it was a 'Stros fan in disguise, trying to invite bad karma to strike Chicago.

posted by rcade at 10:41 PM on October 22

Yeah, I saw that, too. It was a great game, with the Sox taking leads and the Astros tying but unable to take the lead themselves. The Sox are just a bit better than the Astros. Their bullpen looked good after a long layoff, and Jenks was pretty impressive. The in-game crap from Fox was annoying, especially when they missed Crede's go-ahead home run in the bottom of the 4th. Crede had a huge game, with three nice plays at third. Here's a play-by-play recap.

posted by kirkaracha at 10:57 PM on October 22

Woohoo! 1 down, 4 to go!

posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:06 PM on October 22

Wow!!!! What an 8th inning that was!!!!! Ozzie finally used the bullpen, and in what great manner!!!! Wooohoooo....

posted by zippinglou at 11:19 PM on October 22

1986 or 2005, hang nail or hamstring, somethings don't change for roger (doesn't exactly take a bloody sock for roger to throw in the towel). Of course, he took himself out of the game before taking the loss, so he still has his perfect world series record going, and 20 years from now that's what we'll remember. Better yet he can come back in game 4 and get a lead and stay in the game and his apologists errr fans can point to it and say it proves why he's the greatest pitcher in the history of the game. clemens:I don't know that it really matters," he said. "I'm getting the ball to go out tomorrow to get something done to get this thing started in a positive way for my ballclub and I plan on doing it. That's the bottom line. I don't care how my body feels this time of year. If you need more aspirin, if you need more heat, if you need more ice, this is the time you get it and you don't ask questions." Unless things turn sour. Typical clemens bullshit. Ozzie finally used the bullpen, and in what great manner!!!! Ozzie should have gone to the bullpen at the beginning of the inning. The only reason the game wasn't tied is because berkman's single was hit too hard to score the runner from second. That was luck, not coaching.

posted by justgary at 12:00 AM on October 23

Clemens didn't want to leave the game according to the Astros pitching coach. They pulled him. I loved how Ozzie called for Jenks. Give me tall and wide. I think hereafter, that'll be his nickname.

posted by panoptican at 12:03 AM on October 23

Clemens didn't want to leave the game according to the Astros pitching coach. They pulled him. posted by panoptican Ha, good one. There is no santa claus, nor easter bunny, and clemens doesn't come out if he doesn't want to. I noticed how the astros coach made a point to say roger wanted to stay in. Person next to me: "People won't fall for that, will they?" Me: "you'll be surprised." Again, same as in 86. People are so gullible.

posted by justgary at 12:24 AM on October 23

I never understood the Clemens conspiracy theories. The fact of the matter is he wasn't effective and cold weather is no good for a bum hammy. Is it just me, or was Cotts angry that he was pulled in the eighth?

posted by panoptican at 12:41 AM on October 23

I never understood the Clemens conspiracy theories. The fact of the matter is he wasn't effective and cold weather is no good for a bum hammy. No conspiracy theory needed. We're talking facts. Clemens took himself out in 86. The only person who remembers different is Clemens, and if you've followed his career you'll know roger has a problem with the truth. Tonight, if roger, 7 time cy young winner, wants to stay in, he stays. But you're right. He was ineffective. Espn has him as their 'goat' and rightly so. I've never understood why people praise roger to the roof for any accomplishment but give him every excuse for his failures. Bad hammy? Maybe so, but that's part of the game. It was his choice to put himself out there, and his choice that put 3 on the board in 2 innings.

posted by justgary at 12:49 AM on October 23

Ozzie should have gone to the bullpen at the beginning of the inning. The only reason the game wasn't tied is because berkman's single was hit too hard to score the runner from second. That was luck, not coaching.

Ozzie was prepared, he had his bullpen ready in case a runner got on base, and he had the right people to do the job: The lefty for the lefty hitters and then the "100 mph rookie flame-thrower" to finish the job.

I love how "some" (thankfully few) people are blind at recognizing the great job Ozzie has done all year with this ball-club. In a few more games it wont really matter - He will have a World Series under his belt, the first for the White Sox since 1917.... and maybe who knows, maybe a manager of the year award!

Gotta love the way he plays the game though, good fundamentals, bunt and advance the runners, the perfect (no one expects) sacrifices.... the energy and passion which he transmit to his players in the dogout! It's a thing of beauty! How he "manages" to get the WINS for his team: That to me is COACHING !

posted by zippinglou at 01:39 AM on October 23

Ozzie was prepared, he had his bullpen ready in case a runner got on base, and he had the right people to do the job: The lefty for the lefty hitters and then the "100 mph rookie flame-thrower" to finish the job. You're missing the point, or maybe choosing to ignore it. He brought the right guys in (not rocket science...lefty lefty, righty righty, coaching 101) but it was luck that kept the game from being tied.

posted by justgary at 01:44 AM on October 23

Yeah, pure luck to have 2 pitchers come in and get 3 strike outs! The guy has no idea what he's doing. Just like it was luck when he brought "El Duque" to get the zero on the bases loaded no out situation... or as lucky as winning 99 games in the season and the Pennant... and now being up 1-0 in the WS.... the guy is sooooo lucky! Darn it !!!!!!! And if anyone finds "my point" please give it back, I need it to try to make sense of this "Ozzie" guy and why he leads his team to victories.....

posted by zippinglou at 01:52 AM on October 23

What's with the clemens witch hunt? No conspiracy theory needed. We're talking facts. What facts? Gonna prove he was healthy?

posted by tron7 at 01:52 AM on October 23

Healthy or not, he got "rocketed"..... Guess his manager wasn't as lucky!!!!

posted by zippinglou at 01:54 AM on October 23

You're missing the point, or maybe choosing to ignore it. He brought the right guys in (not rocket science...lefty lefty, righty righty, coaching 101) but it was luck that kept the game from being tied. And you'd crucify him if they scored a run off his "coaching 101" moves too. Witch hunts all around.

posted by tron7 at 01:56 AM on October 23

Zippinglou, either you're ignoring what I'm writing, or you're having problem with your reading. O.K !!!!! All I'm saying is he left the starting pitcher in to start the inning. Gave up a double. Next hitter hit a single which normally drives in the run from second. The ball was hit too hard, however. Luck kept the tying run from coming in. What facts? Gonna prove he was healthy? I'll prove he's healthy when you show where I said he was healthy.

posted by justgary at 01:58 AM on October 23

And you'd crucify him if they scored a run off his "coaching 101" moves too. Witch hunts all around. posted by tron7 Witch hunt? Can't second guess the coach? You do know where you are, correct? Or should we all be like zippinglou and believe the man is god and can do no wrong? And again, where did I crucify him? Get a grip people.

posted by justgary at 02:00 AM on October 23

Zippinglou, either you're ignoring what I'm writing, or you're having problem with your reading. O.K !!!!!

Luck!!!!! What a bunch of bull.... keep thinking that "luck" has anything to do with this and you'll end up making excuses for every situation that doesn't go your way: - Unlucky my guy struck-out with bases loaded and no outs... and the next, and the next..... Unlucky they hit hit those homeruns, only if the center fielder had jumped a few inches higher, or the ball hadn't traveled 2 feet further.... Unlucky that Roger got hurt... Unlucky that we didn't score.........

Now, if you don't see my point.... then you're the one ignoring it, or that can't read! (right back at ya, coach 101)

posted by zippinglou at 02:04 AM on October 23

Zippinglou, I WANT the whitesox to win. You keep bringing up everything except the play I said was luck. Tell me how what I said was lucky wasn't lucky, please. Just that one play. Can you do it?

posted by justgary at 02:07 AM on October 23

justgary has figured it all out: You need "LUCK", not skills to win ball-games.... Next time, hire a Feng Shui architect to design the stadium.... we need all the luck we can get!

posted by zippinglou at 02:08 AM on October 23

Are you going to answer the question?

posted by justgary at 02:09 AM on October 23

"There's no LUCK in baseball" - That's my answer.... and I'm done.... if you don't get it... then fine.... you were right! Satisfied now?

posted by zippinglou at 02:11 AM on October 23

I'll prove he's healthy when you show where I said he was healthy. You didn't answer my question, you said: No conspiracy theory needed. We're talking facts. I said what facts. So what facts?

posted by tron7 at 02:12 AM on October 23

He wants an answer!!! On preview he got his answer. I like Jenks, I don't much care for Roger, Ozzie is cool, and I hope the Chisox win the Series.

posted by jbou at 02:15 AM on October 23

I said what facts. So what facts? I'm guessing at what he meant by 'conspiracy'. I'm guessing he's referring to my comment regarding clemens in 86 when he took himself out of the game. Clemens claims the manager took him out. The manager, and others, claim it was clemens.

posted by justgary at 02:17 AM on October 23

So my question would be 'what conspiracy?'

posted by justgary at 02:19 AM on October 23

Witch hunt? Can't second guess the coach? You do know where you are, correct? Or should we all be like zippinglou and believe the man is god and can do no wrong? And again, where did I crucify him? Get a grip people. And again, where did zippinglou say the man is god? Get a grip gary.

posted by tron7 at 02:19 AM on October 23

So my question would be 'what conspiracy?' The one you put forth earlier. Of course, he took himself out of the game before taking the loss, so he still has his perfect world series record going, and 20 years from now that's what we'll remember.

posted by tron7 at 02:24 AM on October 23

Tron7, I'm just assume you haven't read zippinglou's rantings about ozzie's managing the last two weeks. I said I thought ozzie should have gone to the bullpen earlier, and that going lefty left and righty righty is a no brainer. If you consider that me crucifying the guy, so be it.

posted by justgary at 02:26 AM on October 23

I don't consider that a conspiracy. I never used that word. If you want to believe roger was begging to stay in and his coaches wouldn't allow him to, thats fine. I simply don't.

posted by justgary at 02:28 AM on October 23

JG- Hadn't seen zippi's deifying the past 2 weeks and thought your passing off his coaching moves as luck was a bit much. Crucifying may have been the wrong adjective but give the guy some credit I really don't think this is the best team in baseball yet here they are a game up in the world series.

posted by tron7 at 02:34 AM on October 23

No, no. I didn't mean his coaching moves were luck. My point was he made good coaching moves plus had a little luck (the ball being hit too hard to bring the runner in from second). That's normally what wins games. Playing well, good coaching, a little luck. Wasn't a knock against him.

posted by justgary at 02:38 AM on October 23

I don't consider that a conspiracy. I never used that word. If you want to believe roger was begging to stay in and his coaches wouldn't allow him to, thats fine. I simply don't. I have no reason not to beleive it. And clemens is a drop and drive pitcher where hammy injuries would be problematic.

posted by tron7 at 02:40 AM on October 23

In the interview after the game roger gave no indication that he wanted to stay in the game. I don't question his injury, I question his heart when things go wrong. I don't care how my body feels this time of year. If you need more aspirin, if you need more heat, if you need more ice, this is the time you get it and you don't ask questions. Roger said that, not me. Two innings? Can't back it up I guess.

posted by justgary at 02:50 AM on October 23

I never said Ozzie was GOD, but I'll admit it, I love the way the guy manages his ball club! I would catalog him as being unorthodoxly savvy. He's getting it done!

posted by zippinglou at 04:09 AM on October 23

Ozzie may not be God, but justgary definitely has a little Christ complex going on; notice how he thinks everybody is trying to "crucify" him. Perhaps if he admits Ozzie is a good manager he will break the seventh seal and start the apocalypse? Roger Clemens = Antichrist? White Sox winning the World Series = Rapture?

posted by sic at 04:47 AM on October 23

Guillen outwits Garner in late-inning chess match

posted by sic at 04:49 AM on October 23

C'mon Roger, this is the World Series. What are you going to rest your hamstring for -- till next season when you're retired or until your next start when the Astros are so far out of it that it doesn't mean a damn what you'll do. So pop some pain bills, deaden your thigh. This is the World Series. You pitch like you're in the World Series -- with guts -- not to show that you've been in the game so long you're immune to any passion for the championship or your teammates. So you're a HOF pitcher. Do you want to be remembered as one of the best pitchers to take the mound, or as the biggest chump that played because he always took himself out of big games when things weren't going his way.

posted by roberts at 07:08 AM on October 23

Hey people, where do you guys live posting all night long, wow! Great win for the White Sox. Good pitching, timely hitting, and yes indeed, a little luck. I am a huge White Sox fan and even I know that we have had a little "luck" in every series this post season. It just keeps on rolling. No one can pull the exact string at the exact time every pitch, every at bat, every game. No one. Some managers are closer to perfecting the perfect move at the perfect time than others, but no one is omnipotent. Yes, we Sox fans were lucky Burkman lined that single in the eighth to left, giving Taveris no chance to score from second. And yes, Ozzie should have pulled Contreras to start the eigth. But, Contreras was in the high 70's in pitch count. Tough to pull him then. Having said that, I believe Contreras was left out there just to get Taveris. I believe Contreras gets pulled with one out in the eigth, if everything would have went the way Ozzie expected. Then, of course, he brings in Cotts and makes Burkman bat righty (which in the end didn't make a damn bit of difference), which he thinks is the right move. Go Buerhle!!! Is Roger done? Wow! I don't wish anyone harm, but wow, first Colon in the ALCS, now Roger the Rocket in the WS? Talk about the God's smilin' down on a team. Been this way all post season for us starving Chicago fans. Good luck Sunday Houston!! Great start to a great Series.

posted by Shoalbaby at 07:22 AM on October 23

C'mon Roger, this is the World Series. What are you going to rest your hamstring for -- till next season when you're retired or until your next start when the Astros are so far out of it that it doesn't mean a damn what you'll do. It depends on how bad it is. If a hamstring is injured bad enough, your leg won't work, period: that's a matter of mechanics, not pain. But in that case, you won't be walking back to the dugout, either.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:41 AM on October 23

Has anyone asked Ozzie if he plans to hold to his promise to step down if the Sox win the Series?

posted by ajaffe at 08:58 AM on October 23

We're talking facts. Clemens took himself out in 86. The only person who remembers different is Clemens Source this, please. My understanding is it breaks down into two factions, the McNamara camp and the Clemens camp. I've never seen a definitive answer on Blistergate. Whatever my feelings about Clemens, I have a hard time believing he pulls himself out of playoff games whenever he feels a twinge. The man's still playing at 42. Now that Contreras has gotten over the New York jitters, he's a killer to teams seeing him for the first time (not that he's fun anytime). That first time through the lineup looked painful for the 'Stros.

posted by yerfatma at 09:02 AM on October 23

Has anyone asked Ozzie if he plans to hold to his promise to step down if the Sox win the Series? No way Chicago (the team and the city) will let him step down if the Sox win the series. He's been too big a part of their success.

posted by sic at 09:10 AM on October 23

I don't hang this loss on Clemens. The whole game boils down to the top of the eighth inning -- Houston had runners at first and third with nobody out and Ensberg, Lamb, and Bagwell coming up. Cotts struck out the first two, then Jenks came in and blew Bagwell away with all of those 100 mph fastballs. There was luck in Taveres not scoring from second on a double, but everything after that was great pitching. Anyone else question the decision to start Bags and keep him in to face Jenks, as Gene Wojciechowski does on ESPN? He was visibly in pain with the cuts he was taking. If he had made contact with one of Jenks' fastballs, it would have knocked his arms off.

posted by rcade at 09:13 AM on October 23

Clearly the hamstring has been evident for more than a month. He's not the same pitcher as he was before the all-star break, although he STILL is the Rocket.

posted by Peter1210 at 09:14 AM on October 23

Roger said that, not me. Two innings? Can't back it up I guess. Could it also be that Roger recognize that he was ineffective and that staying in the game would put his team at further risk of falling behind because he's not able to get outs? Injury or not, a true gamer is someone who can put their ego aside if they just don't have it and let the manager get someone in there who might be sharper. Curt was still sharp last year with the bloody sock; if he wasn't, would you have blamed him for pulling himself even though he *could* pitch but chose not to because he was ineffective? You keep mentioning "facts" yet I haven't seen any. We have no idea how bad Roger's injury is (honestly, he doesn't look like the same Roger, which might be injury or just age), we have no definitive answer as to who pulled who (other than what the coach said, of course) but if you want to spin that so that it fits your existing feelings on Roger (keeping in mind that Roger was 23 in 1986; you don't think he has changed, just a bit, in 19 years?) then go ahead. Just stop calling them facts and call them what they are; opinion.

posted by dfleming at 09:30 AM on October 23

I don't think Clemens would take himself out for sucking. He was working up some steam in this game, and had even started to work up some hate. When A.J. Pierzynski annoyed him with a late timeout, he responded a pitch or two later with a chin-high inside fastball. The look on A.J.'s face showed that he got the message.

posted by rcade at 10:17 AM on October 23

Clemens didn't want to leave the game according to the Astros pitching coach. They pulled him. I never understood the Clemens conspiracy theories. The fact of the matter is he wasn't effective and cold weather is no good for a bum hammy. What's with the clemens witch hunt? What facts? Gonna prove he was healthy? I said what facts. So what facts? Could it also be that Roger recognize that he was ineffective and that staying in the game would put his team at further risk of falling behind because he's not able to get outs? Injury or not, a true gamer is someone who can put their ego aside if they just don't have it and let the manager get someone in there who might be sharper. You keep mentioning "facts" yet I haven't seen any. We have no idea how bad Roger's injury is (honestly, he doesn't look like the same Roger, which might be injury or just age), we have no definitive answer as to who pulled who (other than what the coach said, of course) but if you want to spin that so that it fits your existing feelings on Roger (keeping in mind that Roger was 23 in 1986; you don't think he has changed, just a bit, in 19 years?) then go ahead. Just stop calling them facts and call them what they are; opinion. Guys...and some of you already know this...if you're expecting to come to this thread and find justgary giving objective opinions regarding Clemens, you'll be sadly disappointed. He obviously has an axe to grind with Roger and justgary's comments are about as fair and balanced as The Fox News Channel. I'm sure we all know the guy who could never quite make it as an athlete and could only find pleasure in trying to knock the big dog off the pile, not by physical means of course but by running his mouth...gary seems to fit this description to a T. Apparently Roger pissed in his sandbox at some point and gary's never forgiven him. Small people with no character or integrity thrive on the adversities of others and in real life we ignore them like the pests they are, swatting them away and dismissing their claptrap for what it is. Gary revels in his position at the head of the Clemens Whine Line where he somehow finds refuge. To each his own, I suppose. It depends on how bad it is. If a hamstring is injured bad enough, your leg won't work, period: that's a matter of mechanics, not pain. But in that case, you won't be walking back to the dugout, either. I've seen more than a player or two walk off the field with a bad hamstring and not play again for 6-10 weeks, minimum. Are you saying by limping to the dugout and down the steps that Roger's injury isn't serious?

posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 11:02 AM on October 23

I'm sure we all know the guy who could never quite make it as an athlete and could only find pleasure in trying to knock the big dog off the pile, not by physical means of course but by running his mouth... This is such a lame schoolyard insult it should bring shame to the next three generations of your family. I hate it when people play the "frustrated former athlete" card here when an athlete they like is being criticized. It's no better than calling you a jocksniffer because you like Clemens.

posted by rcade at 11:26 AM on October 23

haha all red sox and yankees fans(if they dont lie to themselves) know how Clemens loves to come out of a game early if he is losing,I've seen it for years most prominantly when pitching for the yankees,he's a great pitcher,he's done some amazing things but lets call a duck a duck,Roger doesent like to look bad,He will avoid it at all costs.

posted by at 11:38 AM on October 23

No you haven't. I can't stand Roger Clemens for how he left the Sox (and succeeded), but you cannot back this up with anything from someone who shared a dugout with him.

posted by yerfatma at 11:41 AM on October 23

I said: It depends on how bad it is. If a hamstring is injured bad enough, your leg won't work, period: that's a matter of mechanics, not pain. But in that case, you won't be walking back to the dugout, either. ...and Texan replied (at the end of a tirade directed at justgary): I've seen more than a player or two walk off the field with a bad hamstring and not play again for 6-10 weeks, minimum. Are you saying by limping to the dugout and down the steps that Roger's injury isn't serious? Coach Bobby! Breathe deeply! In, out! In, out! Look, Texan, you're clearly letting the he-said-about-what-he-said-about-what-he did of this thread get to you. I don't blame you -- it's six or seven layers deep at this point, and easy to get lost in, unless (like me) you decide to simply not go there. All I was doing was making a factual observation about hamstring injuries. My comment was in response to roberts, who said: C'mon Roger, this is the World Series. What are you going to rest your hamstring for -- till next season when you're retired or until your next start when the Astros are so far out of it that it doesn't mean a damn what you'll do. My point was that hamstring injuries, which probably don't seem like much to someone who's never had one (I have), can result in much more than a little pain, or even a lot of pain. In the extreme case, the leg's major extensor muscle is substantially damaged, the leg won't work at all, and the person in question can't walk. I never said nor implied that nothing short of this extreme was a "real injury", and you need to take a big step back and stop being so defensive about your hometown hero.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 11:42 AM on October 23

Oh fun, here we go. justgary definitely has a little Christ complex going on; notice how he thinks everybody is trying to "crucify" him. Tron7 used the word 'crucify' sic, not me. Don't let little things like that get in your way. Could it also be that Roger recognize that he was ineffective and that staying in the game would put his team at further risk of falling behind because he's not able to get outs? Injury or not, a true gamer is someone who can put their ego aside if they just don't have it and let the manager get someone in there who might be sharper. You can look at that in many ways. 2 innings? Obviously there's a problem. Maybe he should have put his ego to the side in the first place and come out of the bullpen. Why wait until you give up 3 in two innings to put your ego to the side? we have no definitive answer as to who pulled who (other than what the coach said, of course) but if you want to spin that so that it fits your existing feelings on Roger Again, you really believe that if clemen wants to stay in they pull him? That's insane. Roger wants to stay in, no one takes him out. This point is moot anyway as roger basically said last night he couldn't go any longer. I'll be the first to admit I don't care for the man. Is it possible my feelings taint my opinions? Sure. But no more than others treat roger with kid gloves. If roger comes back and wins game 4 we won't hear the end of it, and the word 'heart' will be used in every paragraph. Well, it goes both ways. Roger had already given up 3 runs last night in two innings. Didn't seem to be limping. By the end of the game he can't walk. Fine, guess it got worse really quickly. Then don't pitch again until you can go past 2 innings roger. No you haven't. I can't stand Roger Clemens for how he left the Sox (and succeeded), but you cannot back this up with anything from someone who shared a dugout with him. Who would say that yerfatma? I doubt anyone would have the guts. Bottom line is injuries are a part of the game. Roger didn't get the job done. If he were in that bad a shape he shouldn't have gone out there and put his team in the hole. It might be time to put his ego to the side and let the young arms go to work. My biased opinion. Roger looked fine. His velocity wasn't bad. He started getting hit, it started getting ugly, roger bailed, and an hour later he can't walk. Whatever. If his hammy is that bad, he should be through for the series. Small people with no character or integrity thrive on the adversities of others and in real life we ignore them like the pests they are, swatting them away and dismissing their claptrap for what it is. Texan lost in ny, are you related to roger or something? Seriously, you don't know anything about me, yet you attack me personally? Because I dare give my opinions on an athlete on a site discussing sports? I would tell you to grow up, but you're a little too old for that. Go outside and get some fresh air, you're losing it.

posted by justgary at 12:20 PM on October 23

If roger comes back and wins game 4 we won't hear the end of it, and the word 'heart' will be used in every paragraph. Well, it goes both ways. Roger had already given up 3 runs last night in two innings. Didn't seem to be limping. By the end of the game he can't walk. Fine, guess it got worse really quickly. Then don't pitch again until you can go past 2 innings roger. Having played sports all my life and subjected myself to quite a few pulls, strains and tears, I know that one of the prevaling things that happens is that once you stop moving, everything tightens and gets worse. You wake up the next morning stiffer than you went to bed. You start limping even after running on a bum leg. The body masks the injury so you can complete the physical thing you are doing. I don't think it's that far fetched that once he sat down for a period of time in the clubhouse, things got worse. Especially in the cold weather. Can you honestly say this isn't likely? If so, you must know a lot more about his injury than I do. He will pitch again if he feels that he is able to provide his team with a performance. Do you not agree that he should do this if he honestly feels he's the best option for his team? Go outside and get some fresh air, you're losing it. I find this statement ironic considering you used something he did 19 years ago to justify his actions now. He's 42, not 23 anymore. Can you concede that his temperment/pitching style have developed over the years?

posted by dfleming at 01:36 PM on October 23

i have been reading everyones comments for a while now, and decided to join in. i am a 15 year old kid from the south side of chicago and a die hard sox fan. there is no doubt that this series is big for both teams and their cities. in regard to the consistant beligerant comments about the white sox (in former posts), it just goes to show the incredible bias towards the east coast. as i peruse the posts throughout the season about the white sox's rise to the top, it strikes me as odd that no one has written a post about this. sorry about the off topic rant.

posted by 15yroldkid at 01:47 PM on October 23

and another thing. it is obvious to me that clemens is not the pitcher he used to be. not only because he has aged quite a bit, but, if you look back to before he moved to the national league, he was getting shelled. he was ready to retire, thinking that he was unable to continue the mark of excellence he was used to. the fact that he was able to be as good as he is in the national league is more proof that the american league is the better one. both hitting and pitvhing wise.

posted by 15yroldkid at 01:52 PM on October 23

Dfleming, we're going to disagree because we basically believe roger is two different people. He will pitch again if he feels that he is able to provide his team with a performance. Do you not agree that he should do this if he honestly feels he's the best option for his team? I think he better be damn sure he can go for more than two innings. If his hamstring is as bad as we're hearing it is, he doesn't need to pitch again. If he does, and gets the same result, will you concede that his ego go in the way or give him yet another pass? When you take the ball to the mound you need to take responsibility for that choice. I find this statement ironic considering you used something he did 19 years ago to justify his actions now. He's 42, not 23 anymore. Can you concede that his temperment/pitching style have developed over the years? I made that statement regarding a member talking about my integrity, among other things. So the irony is lost on me. As far as clemens, maybe he's changed, maybe he hasn't. Would you concede that not everyone changes for the better from 23 to 42? Remember when clemens threw the bat at piazza and claimed he 'thought it was the ball'? That wasn't that long ago. Also Pat Jordan, a respected writer (time mag, si, et) , spent some time with clemens in 2001, something you or I have never done. Here's what he says about clemens: Yeah, hes a total narcissist, but hes alsohes not bright. Its sort of like being with an overgrown child. Hes a hyperactive child, all the time. Im a believer that the reason he works out so hard is to burn off energy. Cause hes like the kid that you have to keep chocolate away from, you know? You know when you have the kid, he cant concentrate on anything and the doctor says, Dont let him eat chocolate? Thats Roger Clemens. Hes nothes not a bad guy, hes just arrested development, I guess. You think you are with an arrogant fourteen year-old kid when youre with him. Youre not with a grown up. Which is, ironically, how I've always felt about clemens.

posted by justgary at 02:02 PM on October 23

That postgame interview with Jenks made him seem like another overgrown kid, too. Flamethrowers are like Peter Pan; they don't have to grow up.

posted by rcade at 02:19 PM on October 23

Has anyone asked Ozzie if he plans to hold to his promise to step down if the Sox win the Series? Ozzie did say this, but by now you should know Ozzie.... He will say whatever it takes to make sure the preassure is off his team and on him.... He drives under preassure, he feeds of this adrenaline.... His comments make no sense most of the time, or do they? Maybe he just loves to play mind games with the tabloids! I also heard him say he could become Mayor of Chicago if he wins! Maybe he will quit baseball to become a politician? NOT !!!!!!!

posted by zippinglou at 02:29 PM on October 23

it is obvious to me that clemens is not the pitcher he used to be. not only because he has aged quite a bit, but, if you look back to before he moved to the national league, he was getting shelled. His ERA+ for his last three seasons in the AL was above league average (barely in 2002 and not in 1999). Please explain your definition of "shelled". I will agree the AL is a tougher league to pitch in, but I don't think that's news to anyone. I don't know how you would determine the better league.

posted by yerfatma at 02:43 PM on October 23

in regard to the consistant beligerant comments about the white sox (in former posts), it just goes to show the incredible bias towards the east coast. 15yearoldkid, I know that they don't teach anything as 20th-century as geography in high school any more, so here's a FYI: the White Sox's opponents aren't from the East Coast, either.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 03:03 PM on October 23

Chicago 41 53' N 87 38' W Boston 42 22' N 71 2' W i was pseaking in generalities. u are right. in the relative world that is not too far east. however in the major league baseball world, thats about as far east as you can go.

posted by 15yroldkid at 03:12 PM on October 23

in regard to the comment about clemens getting shelled, for clemens to have a 4.35 or 3.91 era, is not very good for him. however, if you were to look at the next 2 seasons in houston his era dropped significantly. (2.98 and 1.87). the al is not only a harder place to pitch, but consistantly has better all around players, DH excluded.

posted by 15yroldkid at 03:17 PM on October 23

Chicago 41 53' N 87 38' W Boston 42 22' N 71 2' W Hmm. Looks like your geography is fine, but maybe you could use some help with current events. The White Sox played the Red Sox over two weeks ago, during the American League divisional championship series, which the White Sox won in three straight. This thread is discussing the World Series, currently ongoing, in which the White Sox are facing the Houston Astros -- as I said, not exactly an East Coast team. Perhaps you're talking about some other remarks made in some other thread, but I'm not sure why you'd be commenting on them here.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 03:22 PM on October 23

for clemens to have a 4.35 or 3.91 era, is not very good for him We only know if a player is good based on how they compare relative to other players. You're treating his ERAs as if absolute numbers meant anything. He was better than most pitchers in his league in all of those years. He's been much better than pitchers in the NL* this year. * Again, the beauty of relative measures: regardless of your opinion of the league's strength, he's been better than almost every other pitcher facing the same competition.

posted by yerfatma at 04:01 PM on October 23

Tron7 used the word 'crucify' sic, not me. Don't let little things like that get in your way. Don't worry, sport-fan Jesus, I won't. Not since you enter into persecution mode when more than one person simply disagrees with you. By the way, I've yet to hear you concede a single point even when faced with more compelling arguments. You just keep repeating yourself until you're blue in the face; just read yourself in those ridiculous threads about the dropped third strike in the ALCS, 60% of the posts are from you repeating the same point over and over again: he caught it, he caught it, he caught it. Never once did you admit that as a professional ball player playing in probably the biggest game of his life, the catcher should of just tagged the baserunner regardless. So now you dislike Ozzie Guillen, probably the funnest manager in baseball, and despise Roger Clemens, one of the all-time greatest pitchers, how many times are we gonna hear about it? Oh wait, I already know the answer to that. So much negativity. Don't you enjoy watching baseball? Isn't there anything positive you'd like to comment about? Wasn't the infield grass nicely cut? ps) nobody wants to crucify you, but just out of curiosity, what size cross do you wear?

posted by sic at 04:37 PM on October 23

I havent heard one argument against justgary that was compelling.and not speaking for the man but for myself it seems the reason the man has to keep repeating himself is because a. whoever just cant face the facts B.it's over your head and you just dont get it. To an intelligent person what he says is clear cut,it seems that ignorance and bias seem to be clouding some peoples veiw of the facts.

posted by at 04:49 PM on October 23

Yes, "he caught it" is far over my head --it's also, interestingly enough, under the catcher's glove ;)

posted by sic at 04:54 PM on October 23

Not since you enter into persecution mode when more than one person simply disagrees with you. By the way, I've yet to hear you concede a single point even when faced with more compelling arguments. You just keep repeating yourself until you're blue in the face; just read yourself in those ridiculous threads about the dropped third strike in the ALCS, 60% of the posts are from you repeating the same point over and over again: he caught it, he caught it, he caught it. Aww, still stuck on that thread sic? You have a problem letting things go. You also have a problem with me. That's your problem, not mine. I will post until I'm blue in the face if I desire. If you want to call it sour grapes, or say I'm in persecution mode (where?), or whatever else be my guest. I thought that thread was great, and the discussion went on after you jumping around and calling 'sour grapes'. I'll continue to discuss sports with people I agree and disagree with, but respect, and who don't take it personally. You're not one of those people. So peace. Never once did you admit that as a professional ball player playing in probably the biggest game of his life, the catcher should of just tagged the baserunner regardless. Justgary from that thread: Here's the thing. I agree that the catcher should have thrown to first.I also understand why he didn't. And I feel the fact that he didn't shows more than anything that he caught the ball cleanly. That doesn't mean that the ump and his decision shouldn't be examined. If you don't believe the ump made a mistake for calling the ball trapped (and still he hasn't said why he thought it was trapped) then the ump himself has confirmed that he should have handled the calling differently.

posted by justgary at 05:08 PM on October 23

Oh, give it a rest, sic. To try to return to the subject of the thread...how come no day game today? Why no day games at all during the Series? Doesn't seem right somehow.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 05:29 PM on October 23

Ratings, isn't it?

posted by justgary at 05:32 PM on October 23

Fair enough, lbb. I suspect that day games don't generate the same amount of revenue as night games, even on the weekends, which would explain why there are no night games. And it is a damn shame. On preview: JG, we agree on something, shake?

posted by sic at 05:34 PM on October 23

Clemens is no Schilling. shoeless joe....shoeless joe...shoeless joe............................... GO SOX!!!!!!

posted by budman13 at 05:53 PM on October 23

But wouldn't the ratings be up there for a weekend day game? Oh, probably not as much (and not as much beer would get drunk), but it still enrages me. Seven games and not one day game. Sign of the coming apocalypse, for sure.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 06:15 PM on October 23

Yes. The NFL manages to get asses in seats during day games. College football pulls off the same trick. I have no idea why there are no Series day games (unless it's the competition from football).

posted by yerfatma at 06:42 PM on October 23

does the term "primetime" mean anything to u guys? i dont think the poor bastards at fox are conserned with keeping the rituals of oldschool baseball.

posted by 15yroldkid at 07:38 PM on October 23

i dont think the poor bastards at fox are conserned with keeping the rituals of oldschool baseball. Aint that the truth.

posted by justgary at 08:04 PM on October 23

Did you really type "poor bastards at fox"? Did you actually type that?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:10 PM on October 23

incredibly rich bastards with no moral standards*

posted by 15yroldkid at 08:19 PM on October 23

That postgame interview with Jenks made him seem like another overgrown kid, too. Flamethrowers are like Peter Pan; they don't have to grow up. posted by rcade Jenks actually reminds me of bobby from king of the hill. Even looks like him.

posted by justgary at 09:21 PM on October 23

Jenks actually reminds me of bobby from king of the hill. Even looks like him. good call

posted by tron7 at 11:00 PM on October 23

Where's today's world series thread, what a 9th inning!

posted by tron7 at 11:02 PM on October 23

ohhhhhhhhh man. it is jumpin all over here. people screamin in the streets! incredible.

posted by 15yroldkid at 11:03 PM on October 23

Where's today's world series thread, what a 9th inning! Waitin' on you to start it tron ;)

posted by justgary at 11:06 PM on October 23

Waitin' on you to start it tron ;) Don't know how.

posted by tron7 at 11:10 PM on October 23

That Bobby Hill comparison is hilarious. Never once did you admit that as a professional ball player playing in probably the biggest game of his life, the catcher should of just tagged the baserunner regardless. So in other words, it would have been OK for Gary to repeat himself as long as he agreed with you. I finally got to see that play last night. Wasn't even close -- he caught it. How this gaffe hangs on the catcher, rather than the ump, is a mystery to me.

posted by rcade at 06:56 AM on October 24

rcade, you're completely missing the point on my observations of gary. I was simply pointing out what a weak human being it takes to set their sights on one person and constantly take pot shots, whether that person be George Bush, Bill Cinton, Al Davis, Jerry Jones, Geraldo Rivera or Roger Clemens. And to the matter worse, gary seems to hold a child-like grudge in Roger's case evidenced every time Clemens sneezes. Call me names if that makes you feel better but gary has proven time and again he has no character or even a shred of integrity regarding this matter. As for you, gary, you seem to feel I'm full of emotion and without rational thought on this subject; you couldn't be more wrong. Roger Clemens wouldn't even make my personal top 50 athletes list. My point is that you have no honor when it comes to your Clemens rants because you continually talk in circles without providing credible links as evidence to your diatribes. You seem to have quite the unhealthy obssession with hating Roger and people should know that just because you're one of the founding members of this site, you're not above being called to the carpet when spewing your vile conviction. Keep carrying that hate. It will serve you well.

posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 11:43 AM on October 24

Texan, I think you need to give it a rest -- really. While we take the bark off each other from time to time, there's a difference between a SpoFite making unflattering observations about a public sports figure, and a SpoFite making some very nasty remarks about a fellow SpoFite. justgary's made some immoderate comments about Clemens, but you departed from the realm of sensible responses when you made remarks about his presumed lack of sports prowess -- something about which you know nothing -- as a reason for why he'd post something bad about Clemens, and you're just compounding it now, in spades. "weak human being", "child-like grudge", "he has no character or even a shred of integrity", "you have no honor"...it's time to step way, way back from this, Texan.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 12:14 PM on October 24

lbb, look at the comments again, if you so desire. You will note the word "seems" a couple of times, meaning "to give the impression of being." I don't know whether gary's entire life is comsumed by hate or an allowance to say anything he wants without being challenged. I do know in this case where won't we find "justgary giving objective opinions regarding Clemens" he's not going to get away with it without rebuttal. Come to his defense if you like but I'm not going anywhere, unless of course "the Pantheon" decides they don't want their righteous opinions contested and give me the boot. I've been kicked out of better bars than this shithole:-) That's a joke.

posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 12:34 PM on October 24

..."where we won't"....not "where won't we"...

posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 12:35 PM on October 24

I'm not coming to his defense, Texan, but you're calling him a worthless bag of shit simply for saying mean things about your boy Clemens. Seems a bit much. And since when are opinions supposed to be objective, anyway?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 12:47 PM on October 24

I don't think gary's a worthless bag of shit...never intended for that to be the meaning. And on second thought, my backing away is probably best for all concerned.

posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 12:52 PM on October 24

Roger the Dodger strikes again.

posted by yerfatma at 01:46 PM on October 24

Sportsfilter: Don't take it personally

posted by The_Black_Hand at 02:21 PM on October 24

I don't think you have to worry about taking on a founder of the site, Texan. But when you go as far as to say that he "has no character or even a shred of integrity" regarding Clemens, it's a personal insult far beyond the boundaries of what you know about Gary. Personally, I would only take that kind of abuse from friends who know me well enough to make that judgment. Any stranger who believes I have no character is just making a lucky guess. It ought to be possible to question whether he's being fair about Clemens without reducing him to a smoldering pile of ash.

posted by rcade at 06:57 AM on October 25

Texan, I originally wasn't going to respond to your comments. I've been on the net long enough to learn to ignore personal attacks, they were bizarre enough I'm probably just wasting my time, and since you know nothing about me, they're worthless. But in the interest of future harmony... You seem to have a problem with me bringing up clemens. You react to my name, instead of my comments. The previous clemens thread I said this: With 3 innings of shutout ball? That's a pretty low threshold ya got there. Lackey pitched 5 shutout innings for the angels with 3 days rest. Pretty tame stuff. You responded with: I see you're still hanging on to that bottle of Bitters, gary. Clemens also pitched on 3 days rest...and he's 43 with a bad hammy. He also laid down a sac bunt and had another at bat. If you want to hate the guy, fine, but at least have the cajones to tell the whole story. Cajones? Again, bizarre. To get this out of the way, here's my opinion on clemens. Roger Clemens is a not-so-bright, ego driven, narcissistic, self centered athlete that represents all that is wrong in sports. Great pitcher, best pitcher of all time probably, who if I had one game to win, one battle to enter, would be the last guy I'd go to. Great performer when things are going well, things going bad, clemens can't be depended on. That you find that opinion so offensive is your problem. I'm not the only one who feels that way. If you think my opinion on roger is unique, you're wrong. Yerfatma's link (thanks yerfatma) basically states my case (he works for the globe, better writer than I, but the same opinion on clemens). I'm guessing he's filled with hate also? Did you notice the quote I gave you on clemens from someone who spent time with him? He basically backs up what I said. I'm guessing he's filled with hate also. Look, you can disagree wth me all you want. You're welcome to your opinion, even if you never back it up except for shots at me. But there's plenty to back up my opinion. I could write a chapter on clemens, and others have. LBB told you as much in another thread. Disagree with me, but if you think I dislike clemens without any reason, you're flat out wrong. because you continually talk in circles without providing credible links as evidence to your diatribes. Please point to examples. I've given plenty of examples to support my opinions on clemens. Your support for differing with me is that I'm filled with hate. That's it. Nothing else. Talk in circles? No backing links? Where? When? You tend to speak in big generalities without any specifics. You seem to have quite the unhealthy obssession with hating Roger Unhealthy? I comment on clemens when the topic comes up. and people should know that just because you're one of the founding members of this site, you're not above being called to the carpet What the hell? I comment the same on this site as if I were member 1 or 10,000. Called to the carpet? Again, just a bizarre statement. I do know in this case where won't we find "justgary giving objective opinions regarding Clemens" he's not going to get away with it without rebuttal. Personal attacks are not rebuttal, and that's all you've given. This site is completely made up of opinions. No one is objective. But I'll put my comment history against anyone's. when spewing your vile conviction. Here's what I said about clemens in this thread, an athlete, on a site about sports: He was ineffective. Espn has him as their 'goat' and rightly so. I've never understood why people praise roger to the roof for any accomplishment but give him every excuse for his failures. Bad hammy? Maybe so, but that's part of the game. It was his choice to put himself out there, and his choice that put 3 on the board in 2 innings. I don't question his injury, I question his heart when things go wrong. Can't back it up I guess. Here's what you've said about me, someone who's not the topic of the site, someone you know nothing about: justgary's comments are about as fair and balanced as The Fox News Channel. the guy who could never quite make it as an athlete and could only find pleasure in trying to knock the big dog off the pile not by physical means of course but by running his mouth Small people with no character or integrity thrive on the adversities of others in real life we ignore them like the pests they are, swatting them away dismissing their claptrap for what it is. Gary revels in his position at the head of the Clemens Whine Line where he somehow finds refuge. gary seems to hold a child-like grudge you have no honor quite the unhealthy obssession with hating Roger spewing your vile conviction. Keep carrying that hate. Who is spewing vile conviction? Who's carrying hate? I hope you stay at sportsfilter. I have nothing against you. Until your little rant here I barely recongnized your name as a member of this site. But I'm through with this little grudge of yours. Challenge my opinion of clemens and I'll debate you any time. The rest, I'll just ignore. I've seen more than a player or two walk off the field with a bad hamstring and not play again for 6-10 weeks, minimum. Unless you're roger clemens. Then the 'bad hamstring' that limited you to 2 innings takes 5 days.

posted by justgary at 02:17 AM on October 26

World Series bores me; Clemens enrages me Fraudger Clemens. I mean Roger. Way to go Rocket, you sellout. Add hamstring to the list of excuses, right up there with blisters (1986) and "Dan Duquette hurt my feelings" (1993-1996). Two innings was all you could manage in Game 1? The Astros should have sent Koby Clemens out there. Numb it, tape it, pour gasoline on it and burn it, I don't care. And you better take the ball in Game 5. You don't quit. You want to keep playing, keep earning those millions? You play. And you win. Winners want the ball. You didn't. Then and now. And you think I'm rough on clemens...

posted by justgary at 03:49 AM on October 26

Pretty tough to take take Chris Mannix seriously as a baseball source when he says this Series bores him. Sorry your guys couldn't be there, Chris -- try watching the game instead the logos.

posted by wfrazerjr at 10:41 AM on October 26

Pretty tough to take take Chris Mannix seriously as a baseball source when he says this Series bores him. I'm with you fraz, but the ratings show you're in the minority.

posted by justgary at 12:47 PM on October 26

gary, I was over the top and won't write anything else in an attempt to justify it.

posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 05:15 PM on October 26

Texan, no hard feelings.

posted by justgary at 12:03 AM on October 27

You're not logged in. Please log in or register.