The coach is an idiot, there are so many ways around this and he never even tried. I wouldnt want a man like him to be my leader, he is a quitter. I think that is what is wrong with our country, there are stone cold killers in jail that believe in God but we have people walking around saying there shouldnt be prayer at football games, hmmmmm. So anyone know when we are changing the pledge of allegiance and our currency. Is God the new curse word at school now?
The people who keep saying that there is suppose to be a seperation of church and state are the people who want to ban all religions. Not only is that a stupid generalization, but religion is not the beautiful flower bed you seem to think it is: The Crusades Albigensian Crusade, 1208-49 Algeria, 1992- Baha'is, 1848-54 Bosnia, 1992-95 Boxer Rebellion, 1899-1901 Christian Romans, 30-313 CE Croatia, 1991-92 Early Christian doctrinal disputes English Civil War, 1642-46 Holocaust, 1938-45 Huguenot Wars, 1562-1598 India, 1992-2002 India: Suttee & Thugs Indo-Pakistani Partition, 1947 Iran, Islamic Republic, 1979- Iraq, Shiites, 1991-92 Jews, 1348 Jonestown, 1978 Lebanon 1860, 1975-92 Molucca Is., 1999- Mongolia, 1937-39 Northern Ireland, 1974-98 Russian pogroms, 1905-06, 1917-22 St. Bartholemew Massacre, 1572 Shang China, ca. 1300-1050 BCE Shimabara Revolt, Japan 1637-38 Sikh uprising, India, 1984-91 Spanish Inquisition, 1478-1834 Taiping Rebellion, 1850-64 Thirty Years War, 1618-48 Tudor England Vietnam, 1800s Witch Hunts, 1400-1800 Xhosa, 1857 Arab Outbreak, 7th Century CE Arab-Israeli Wars, 1948- Al Qaeda, 1993- Crusades, 1095-1291 Dutch Revolt, 1566-1609 Nigeria, 1990s, 2000s So, if I were going to make an asinine generalization like you did, maybe I'd say something like: "The people who keep saying that organized religions are good and should be a part of the government are the people who like to kill other people if they don't share the same beliefs." But then I would be wrong, as are you. Believe what you want to, but keep it to yourself. My relationship to God is my business, yours is yours, and I'd like to keep it that way.
There are so many ways around the Bill of Rights, huh? You're not much of an American if you think like that.
I think that is what is wrong with our country, there are stone cold killers in jail that believe in God but we have people walking around saying there shouldnt be prayer at football games, hmmmmm. You're right, we're fucked.
The lyrics to Frank Zappa's "Dumb All Over" - check it out - he was right......we are DUMB ALL OVER if we base our laws on religion - that is called FACISISM...and Reagan really got the ball rolling.....followed by poppa Bush......
You know, HATER 187's right. I beseech youuuuuu.
There is a bigger choice in life and the coach did the right thing. I would rather be labeled as a servant of God than a servant of man.
I would rather be labeled as a servant of God than a servant of man. Right, because the two things are mutually exclusive then I guess huh? Besides I thought "To Serve Man" was a cookbook?
I agree that he did the right thing if his religious belief were such that he felt compelled to lead his students in prayer. It just isn't the job for him. However, many people hold religious beliefs that would allow them to both be teachers in public schools and follow those rules and still be a servant of God.
I have not read within this forum, or in actuality ever in my recollection, ever heard anyone posit that the Costitution forbids religion, quite the opposite is true in fact. What the First Amendment to the Constitution states is: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..." Which has been interpreted by courts and precedents over 250 years to include the right to practice no religion, and to fundamentally preclude any branch or representative of any government entity at any level to officially sanction any specific religious practice or pass any law regarding religion. (last phrase is my interpretation) (What about Christmas?) daddisamm, Your second try was also wrong as multiple points of fact. With a full-text copy of the document in question just a Google search string away, why embarrass yourself? Obligatory rhetorical question: Why is it that zealots cannot just hold their religious beliefs to themselves, and stop trying to force everyone to believe as they do? Very little difference between Christian zealots and Islamic zealots. Sheesh. What a way to go through life.
Missed Drallig9399's comments and I could not let them pass. I think, that is pretty much what the school officials were trying to avoid. "If you can't pray with me, get off my team." Succinct.
here's a couple more articles from the local paper.
Very little difference between Christian zealots and Islamic zealots Or the Borg.
snoogans
I like sports and pancakes. A lot.
You know I don't want my coach praying but I sure like the Christmas break we get so we can go to Disneyland(haha). Get real people I don't think they were praying for a win but for safety and it should be led by the kids who want to do it not a coach in a public school. He was right to step down and he should look for a christian school. I do enjoy having my kids pray to themselves at school (my birth kids) or with some friends but I don't want some coach who may not believe the way I do and misleading my kids. If I want a christian education I will send them to a christian school. If I wanted a muslim education, I would send them to a muslim school. I want an education for my kids and the opportunity to play football and still keep their own beliefs. Not some coaches who I may not agree with.
I went to Catholic school where we were compelled to participate in athletics. Maybe my memory is failing, but I can't remember a whole lot of pre-game prayers in ~8 seasons of inter-scholatic competition. I don't have anything constructive to add, it just strikes me as weird.
> here's a couple more articles from the local paper. And now half the team will quit, nice role model. I was somewhat sympathetic before, now 'get the fuck outa here.' I guess 'a moment of reflection' prior to the game is out of the question for all these self-aggrandizing quitters. These comments are fairly whiny and actually pathetic, made even more so by the ridiculous air of moral superiority. What a leader of men. Lets all quit when we have to do something we disagree with, particularly if we can shroud it in some fog of 'principle.' What exactly is the principle that is being stood for here? The right to ignore direction from bosses? The right to ignore the law of the land if your personal beliefs conflict? I wonder if the Constitutional scholars from above could find these in the Bill of Rights...
These comments are fairly whiny and actually pathetic, made even more so by the ridiculous air of moral superiority. that's east brunswick for ya.
Looks like enough precedents are accumulating across different courts that a determined parent could get the issue to the Supremes. Chris2y, what do you think?
We don't know that the students are non-religious. Central New Jersey has significant Hindu and Jewish populations; the students could have been uncomfortable praying to a god of a different faith. He could have encouraged his players to pray privately if they chose to. He could have prayed privately, and the players could pray privately alone or in a group. Good points, helix and sfts2. And I have no problem with those of other faiths praying or not praying as they choose. It just shouldn't stop those who do wish to pray from doing so, and the coach could have easily just told someone else to lead the prayer and joined in afterward. What I'm railing against is the apparent need to erase every little bit of religion tied anywhere to the government. That's the revisionist attitude in my eyes -- well, golly, that guy doesn't believe exactly what I believe, so we'd better shut everybody up! Why does it say "In God We Trust" on our money? Why do we say "one nation, under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance? For some sense of the religious statistics in America, here are some numbers from our friends, the U.S. Census Bureau. Good Lord, but that's a lot of Christians! And they're getting shoved around by (at most) 25% of the population! No wonder they're all Raptured up about the way things are going! But fuck 'em, they're Christians! They're all Bushies! Beat 'em back! Calming down... I have no finishing point here. I'm just not getting how a copy of the Ten Commandments or a small prayer is trampling the American Way underfoot. Someone clue me in.
Actually, I'm kind of behind the times as far as reading these type of cases, but apparently Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe, 530 U.S. 290 (2000), held that a pre-game prayer led by students was unconstitutional...so you know one by a coach or other employee of the district probably won't go over well. I only glanced at it, but it was news to me. I have to keep up on my prayer law I guess? Like I said, I don't know if its onpoint because I only glanced at it briefly.
Why do we say "one nation, under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance? Because some anti-commies thought it would be a good add in the 50s.
Why do we say "one nation, under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance? Didn't we already have this discussion?
The lyrics to Frank Zappa's "Dumb All Over" - check it out - he was right......we are DUMB ALL OVER if we base our laws on religion - that is called FACISISM Actually this is fascism(maybe facisism is something else though): "A philosophy or system of government that is marked by stringent social and economic control, a strong, centralized government usually headed by a dictator, and often a policy of belligerent nationalism." (From The American Heritage Dictionary) Alot of overreacting on this subject but i think that's pretty normal with religion. I'm sure the coach(and other "prayer warriors"/"zealots") beleive Christian rights are being trampled on but it's an awfully silly way to make a stand. You don't need a team, or even a vocal, prayer to practice Christianity. If he wants his players to pray before the game couldn't he just have a moment of silence before the game in which his players could pray or not pray as they saw fit. Why is it that zealots cannot just hold their religious beliefs to themselves, and stop trying to force everyone to believe as they do? Because they wouldn't be zealots if they didn't have zeal. And what's so hard to understand about evangelism? If, as a Christian, you beleive that the only way to heaven is through Christ then it's a natural conclusion to convert as many as possible.
Apparently, the trappings of Christianity (public prayer, visual representations of the ten commandments, etc) are most important than actual Christian behavior for many modern Christians. It continues to devolve into the religion about Christ instead of the religion of Christ. WWJD in this situation? Probably he would stick around with the team and invite his student to pray on their own if they so desired whenever they wanted to. At least from my reading of the Bible.
hey did you guys hear about the football coach who held his players down and let beavers chew on their toes before the game? he was totally in the right- after all did you guys know the Constitution DOESN'T CONTAIN THE EXACT WORDS 'YOU MAY NOT HOLD PEOPLE DOWN AND LET BEAVERS CHEW ON THEIR TOES??' That's how we know the founders were totally cool with it. Also, Jefferson once wrote the word "toes" in a letter, and there's some evidence Washington may have said the word "beavers" at some point in 1786.
Okay, now that was funny. Thanks, drjimmy11.
Franklin, in particular, was a huge fan of beaver.
Funny but misguided. On either side of the fence you have to make an interpretation because "football" appears nowhere in the constitution. But funny nonetheless.
"I believe that I made the right decision," said Borden, a Catholic. "I believe I made a decision based on principle. I believe that's who I am." It is amazing how so many of you can criticize this coach for doing exactly what you seemingly would prefer - take his religion and beliefs out of the school. Maybe to some people, including this coach, there are some things more important than sports. God forbid?! If someone stood up for their principles on something besides their religious beliefs, most of you would probably praise them.
Maybe to some people, including this coach, there are some things more important than sports. God forbid?! He abandoned his team. I'm not so sure this was the best way to stand on his principles.
It is amazing how so many of you can criticize this coach for doing exactly what you seemingly would prefer - take his religion and beliefs out of the school. Not me. My only criticism would be for publicly practicing his religion in school in the first place.
Amen lbb. Pun intended.
And on the seventh day, God created the National Football League. And on the evening after the seventh day God gave man a gift called ABC Monday Night Football. Thank God for football and God bless coach Borden. I bet if he was praying to Satan with the boys no one would care about that.
daddisamm, Your second try was also wrong as multiple points of fact. With a full-text copy of the document in question just a Google search string away, why embarrass yourself? Because I can--
Are you guys telling me that if a coach leads a pregame prayer, that makes him a zealot? Does anybody here even know what this man's spiritual backround is? (other than him being a Catholic) There is alot of assuming going on here.
daddisamm, if he feels so strongly about his religion that he must engage in a public display of it in direct contravention of the law -- and when, upon being told, feels he must quit his job rather than obey the law -- I'd call him a zealot, yes.
I feel bad for the guy and shame on all you liberals that think seperation af church and state means that people are not allowed to pray. It means that the government cannot tell us that we have to be a certain religion. not that we are not allowed to have religion. It is our choice to pay not to pary or worship trees if that is what suits us. I am tired of being told I cannot pray. It isn't like second hand smoke, my pray will not kill you.
I ment my prayer will not kill you.
ryrwhatever, you're right, your prayer will not kill me. And if I dump a bucket of hog guts over your head, that won't kill you either. So, I can do it, right? It beats me why you're so tired of being told you cannot pray, since no one has done that. However, if you can't pray any other way than out loud, in a public school, and leading others in same, then you are indeed SOL in these United States. There are countries out there where prayer in school is not only allowed but mandated; perhaps you'd prefer one of them?
I would rather die believing there is a God, than die believing there isn't and find out there is. Rev. Hank
I doudt they Pray for a win , I would like to believe that they pray that no one gets hurt. Rev_ Hank
If the Pledge of Allegiance is allowed, which for all intents and purposes is a vow to God, hence, a prayer, then why can't a coach pray for his players? Perhaps he was praying that his players emphasize sportsmanship, not victory. And if you believe for a moment that there is a separation of church and state...check out the last couple of elections, and look at the Christian lobbyist groups. I'm not arguing for or against prayer, but to say that you're immediately against ANYTHING without looking at all sides of the issue first is simply ignorant.
LBB- I understand what you are saying. I do have to ask this: Have you ever quit something just on princable(sp)? That in itself doesnt make you bad..or does it?
daddisamm, where did I say anything about this coach's quitting making him a bad person?
If the Pledge of Allegiance is allowed, which for all intents and purposes is a vow to God, The whole business about God in the Pledge of Allegiance has already been explained in this thread, not once but twice. Please read the links, and then if you want to continue using the presence of the word "God" in the Pledge of Allegiance to bolster your position in support of school prayer, go right ahead...but you're standing on a very wobbly leg.
May God Bless each of you non-believers that you may see the error of your ways! I truely mean that! The coach is no quitter, he held the job for 23 years. He was the constant in that football program. I am sure students, teachers, and even principles came and went in that time. You know, it's only been in the last few years that this has become such a huge issue. It makes me all the happier that I have sent my kids to Catholic School. We should get vouchers for school and privatize it so that I can go my way and embrace God in all that I do and those who do not believe may go on non-believing without me distracting or isolating them. Yes, of course prayer is for safety, strength, discipline, etc, not for victory (at least not primarily for victory). One parting thought related to the statements regarding how bad religion is. It is like the saying that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Religion does not kill people, fanatical idiots (likely insane) whom claim to be religious or driven by God, kill people. Noone has ever been stabbed, shot, beaten, frozen, poisoned, strangled, or otherwise physically injured by religion. I know a lot of wonderful people and they are all true men and woman of God (although none of them perfect and none thinhk they are). Some of you just need to expand your circle of associates.
I think if you are going to scream freedom than you need to scream it for everyone. Just because you are in a majority does that make you better? We have these rules to make it equal for everyone and that is what I believe this country is based on.....something like... hmmm.... I don't know.... all men are created equal? What if you believed that the God was out to hurt you why would you want to pray for his protection? I don't personally believe this way but have to make room for the person who does and not force my opinions and beliefs on him in a public school. Teach me how to play football and pray for me silently if you need to.
Here is the thing, and this is something that will be making more and more news in the future, you heard it hear first. Christians, Muslims, Buddist, what ever are going to start suing for their right to pray. There have been so many lawsuits forbidding prayer in public that it is now discrimination against anyone who wants to pray. The constitution does not forbid prayer, it simply states that you are not allowed to force others to follow your religion. Once the constitution starts getting interprited that way watch out all you anti prayer people. The Puritans were run out of their country for beliving the way that they did. When given the oportunity to come to the New World they celebrated their new found freedom, but what did they do, they persecuted people that did not believe the same way that they did. Hence Seperation of State and Religion. The founding Fathers wanted the people to decide how they wanted to worship, if at all, not the government. We are a proud people. We like our freedoms, we like our idividuality, and when someone starts to take those away from us we are not afraid to answer the call to arms. We are in such a wash of political correctness that we are afraid to take a stand on anything. Now the few are going to rise and start doing that, and we will truly have freedom of tyranny, persecution, social injustices, and terror.
Someone must have nailed this thread to the door of the Castle Church or something... Oh well, heresy loves company. Yes, I know...filthy non-believer this and shameful liberal that...
No matter what the outcome of any of this, someone is going to be unhappy. There will always be some faction of people who will be having the freedoms "infringed upon".
To explain something a little further that some people have a hard time grasping. If I choose to pray it is my choice. It is your choice to join or not too. I am not forcing my beliefs on you. I am not hurting you in anyway, you have your rights to what you want to do. Now as far as "And if I dump a bucket of hog guts over your head, that won't kill you either. So, I can do it, right?" that is different. You are forcing me into your activity. Your rights stop where mine start. That is what the Constitution is all about. That is what us Zealots are all about. If we are forcing you to join us in prayer then shame on us, but I have yet to see that happen. However we have been forced out of jobs and into silence because you "heathens" refuse to honor our rights to pray wether out loud, silent, in public, in private, or even in a group. As I said earlier, it is only a matter of time before the lawsuits begin to happen.
We should get vouchers for school and privatize it If you get vouchers, you're not privatizing it. You're appropriating my tax dollars to pay for your kids' private schooling. Opt in, or opt out.
go notre dame, I very much agree with you, and lil_brown_bat, I agree with you as well. Vouchers should not be an option, but as I said before, no one will ever be happy. There will always be a problem with this subject.
If you get vouchers, you're not privatizing it. You're appropriating my tax dollars to pay for your kids' private schooling. Opt in, or opt out. Nope, I would be appropriating "my" tax dollars to pay for my kids private schooling. As it is, everyone keeps saying go private if you want prayer in school. Well, I did. I am not infringing on anyone and no one is infringing on me. However, the way I see it, because I pay for my kids school, I am subsidizing your kid's education with my tax dollars when all I want is to have that grow up in a god filled world, rather than godless, the people are much happier and hopeful (less bitter). Funny thing is aslo, some parents send there non-catholic kids to my kid's catholic school and subject them to theology/religion, etc. because it's the cheapest of the nearby private schools. I will say this. I want God in my life(and my childrens) and in all I do. However, I do not want to hurt/isolate, etc. other people in the process (that would of course be against who I strive to be), so, some solution must be had to suit all parties, it cannot be all one way or the other. Can anyone see how that is unfair???
o.k. - allow me one shame on you! If you give/receive presents on Christmas (Christ Birthday celebration) and then come out to sites like this and blast prayer, religion, etc., then SHAME ON YOU!!!! You have no dignity and no right to have such an opinion until you stand behind it!!!
If I choose to pray it is my choice. It is your choice to join or not too. I am not forcing my beliefs on you. This is the fundamental problem in the support of sponsored prayer. By leading a team prayer, you ARE forcing your beliefs on all those involved. I'm a Christian, and I am sometimes uncomfortable being subjected to mass prayer when it's a religious situation. How do you think any players who avoided the prayer would be treated by the coach and the other majority of players who participated in the prayer? This is not to "blast" prayer, which I do pray privately, but rather a disagreement with forced/sponsored prayer.
I meant that I'm uncomfortable when it's NOT a relegious situation
How do you think any players who avoided the prayer would be treated by the coach and the other majority of players who participated in the prayer? This is not realistic. I think if a player went and told a coach that he was uncomfortable with the prayer and wanted to be excluded, the coach would go out of his way to accomodate him/her, especially in todays society. It's not like we (secular society) are lynching people for not bowing there heads or anything. Coaches play kids based on ability and attitude (grades, etc) and sometimes they let bad attitudes go, but mistreating or not playing them because they are not praying, come on.......I grew up playing organized sports and I coach today, this is not realistic....how can someone call themselves christians if they do not promote acceptance and understanding.......
In retrospect, inhimitrust, including the coach in my comment was unfair, but it had nothing to do with playing time. However, I coach as well, and to say that the coach is not subjecting any "non-participators" to potential issues with their teammates is extremely naive. It still doesn't answer the issue that people, regardless of reason or religious background, should have the reasonable expectation to not be subjected to someone else's eligious beliefs at a football game.
daddisamm, where did I say anything about this coach's quitting making him a bad person? You didnt LBB. I was assuming that by calling him a Zealot, you meant in a negative manner. My limited Vocabulary could not find a better word than "bad" I am sorry. When we hear the word "prayer" many folkstend to think of it in a negative light. That is how I came up with the word "hate"
"Subjecting to" is such a painful sounding thing....It must be terrible for a child to hear an adult praying for there safety and well being to a God they do not believe in. They could just as well be saying I sure hope noone gets hurt. I played football growing up and can never remember not praying before a game, but, that's just me.....also, coach never said repeat after me or else, it was always him praying outloud. We said amen when he finished!!! I would counter that it is naive to think/assume that it's a hyper real danger and every time we pray it's a chance for someone to be hurt by such activity. Kids are subjected to all sorts of real world terrible things, I just don't see how this is one of them. That all being said....I would agree that people (children especially) should not be made to feel isolated and or singled out, although I have never seen this in practical application. The best idea I heard on this board was for a minute of silence. During which one may ponder, pray, focus, whatever. This seems fairly reasonable. For the most part, this seems like overzealous parents superemposing there issues onto them, while most of them could care less one way or the other......
It happens,especially in a team environment - anyone not following team traditions are ridculed. I'm thankful you haven't had to deal with that. I do respect comments like those of inhimitrust. I would doubt that most on this board (I know I speak for myself) are against the good intentions of a simple "prayer". It's just that there's no easy way to keep "please lord, keep all players safe" from expanding into someone's more forceful religious beliefs. I agree, though - intelligent and well-intentioned people should be able to find a way to handle this kind of thing respectfully.
Man this hit 100 faster than a Jeter traded to the Red Sox post would have!
The best idea I heard on this board was for a minute of silence. During which one may ponder, pray, focus, whatever. Hey that was my idea. For the most part, this seems like overzealous parents superemposing there issues onto them Ah... are you talking about yourself? It's ok to be zealous but if you don't make sense or at least think before you type no one will listen to you.... but they may make fun of you. That goes for you to little l.
If you get vouchers, you're not privatizing it. You're appropriating my tax dollars to pay for your kids' private schooling. Opt in, or opt out As opposed to you appropriating my tax dollars for your kids public education? I'm not a voucher hero or anything but that seems a bit hypocritical. If it's worth the same as a public education what can you possibly have against it. sorry, off subject.
For the most part, this seems like overzealous parents superemposing there issues onto them, while most of them could care less one way or the other...... I was not speaking of myself....I meant the board at large, especially the extreme stuff, and I should have said projecting their issues onto their children. Meaning, ask most kids and they could care less, they don't have a well formed religous or non-religious stance and even when they do, it's obviously a reflection of the parents. I just remember as a child athlete appreciating that moment in which the coach(es) wished us well and wished us safe and so forth. It made me feel good, genuinely. O.K., maybe a little bit I am speaking of myself in the projecting statement, but, what other reference do I have, I cannot speak for children, noone knows what they are thinking. :-) You get my point though, we care a lot more than most kids/young adults. Most ridiculing I witnessed in sports was against kids that had inferior talent, not kids that acted different. If your the best kid on the team you can pray to satan and noone would care.
One last thought.....If I coach for 23 years, and during that time I pray before all games over my team, after 23 years you better believe it's my team, and then some know it all decides that what I have been doing for 23 years is suddenly unacceptable by todays PC standards and I want to quit over it. The people who want to call me a quitter or ridicule me for standing up not just for what I believe, but, for "my way", could kiss my ass I would have to say! Also, what the heck are we talking about, it's prayer before FOOTBALL!!!!! Each year, kid's die at practices preparing to play football and kid's die in games. Adults die in games. Simple changes could save some lives, but, we spend our time debating the malice of prayer, which, as of yet has not killed anyone. You don't even have to wear pads and a helmet for protection to do it. It's generally pain free. What we are really debating here is the existence of God and the perception of atheist that my vocal, public belief in God is an infringement on their right not to believe.
There goes my idea for a Spofi debate team.
I'm praying that this thread dies soon.
It is amazing how many swear words enter into the picture by people who are defending prayer in school. Is that the kind of prayer you would offer? I don't see anyone really debating the exsistance of God just that we do need to make it equal for everyone. Not allowing anyone in authority to lead the prayers. If the kids want it so bad they will stand up for it and do it themselves. What kind of education are we giving them if we don't show all men are created equal and believe me kids are like sponges and everything we show them has an direct effect on them. If you want to teach them how to pray than do it at home and when you go to church. This is your responsibiltiy as a parent. Explain to them that if they want to pray for safety before the game that is fine and if they want to pray for the guy who doesn't pray is fine too if it isn't forced on the guy.
I'm praying that this thread dies soon. Yes, but are you leading a group of unwitting students in this prayer?
I dont see anyone FORCING anyone.Prayer is a freedom, and a God given one not man.Anyone can Ch
