Red Sox: on brink of elimination, the braves bullpen has been exposed, and yankee gloves take the night off.
posted by justgary to baseball at 01:58 AM - 76 comments
You know, I can take the losing. Really, I can. But game one, two hit batters in the first inning. And tonight, a dribbler is the difference between 4-5 and 4-2. It would be nice to make them work for it. Wells pitched a good game and deserved better. He proved he's a big game pitcher again. But I don't get two curve balls in a row to Iguchi. I thought it was trouble the second I saw what it was, and I don't think the fact that it was a "quick-pitch" was enough to call that pitch. Fastball in please.
posted by justgary at 02:28 AM on October 06
I cant imagine how tony graffanino felt after that error. it was costly.
posted by aztlan78 at 03:25 AM on October 06
I think he used the word "crushed".
posted by justgary at 03:35 AM on October 06
Maybe he can ask Buckner what's the best word to use.
posted by Big D Alexander at 05:41 AM on October 06
If Anaheim and the White Sox do win their respective series, AROD and Tony G. should start a clinic for ball players that are psychologically affected by the “Buckner syndrome”.
posted by zippinglou at 05:55 AM on October 06
Maybe he can ask Buckner what's the best word to use. You and that dope Karl Ravetch can explain to me how an error in the middle of a game that leads to a Game 2 loss in an ALDS they were already behind in the year after they won the Series compares to an error on a play that would have clinched the first Sox series in 78 years.
posted by yerfatma at 06:10 AM on October 06
Thanks for a good laugh yerfatma
posted by kokaku at 06:25 AM on October 06
Graffanino more than atoned for his error in the 9th. It's not his fault Damon and Renteria were swinging the bats like Ray Charles at a pinata party against a hard thrower with some control issues.
posted by jerseygirl at 07:20 AM on October 06
The game was already tied when the ball went through Buckner's legs. And even if he fielded it cleanly, I think Mookie would've beaten it out.
posted by ajaffe at 07:22 AM on October 06
Jeez yerfatma, I was just citing the most famous between the legs error of all time. You must be a Red Sox fan to get that offended!
posted by Big D Alexander at 07:31 AM on October 06
Jeez yerfatma, I was just citing the most famous between the legs error of all time. Good news for you. Fox is always looking for talented people to run the intellectual level of their sports programming directly into the ground.
posted by YukonGold at 07:51 AM on October 06
posted by Big D Alexander at 08:06 AM on October 06
The game was already tied when the ball went through Buckner's legs. Good point. It just fires me up that every error committed by a Sox fielder immediately gets compared to one of the worst moments of my childhood. And it's not just me: a Boston Herald writer (Steve Buckley) got into it with another writer who asked Graffanino if his immediate reaction after the gaffe was to wonder if the press box was comparing him to Bucker. Buckley interjected that no one in the press box said that. The other writer responded with an eloquent "Fuck you."
posted by yerfatma at 08:15 AM on October 06
Right or wrong, I think most people who know baseball and were watching that play, thought of Buckner.
posted by mayerkyl at 08:22 AM on October 06
Ok then - wrong. People are idiots. There is no comparison other than the one that makes life seem simple and easy to digest for morons. Every error is compared to Buckner's - and all this talk should have gone out the window after last year.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:31 AM on October 06
It was the most costly error in baseball, how is it supposed to just go out the window? The media loves to replay big errors. You still see from time to time the ball bouncing off Canseco's head for a homerun. Only a moron would believe that Buckner's error will EVER be forgotten.
posted by Big D Alexander at 08:46 AM on October 06
Every error is compared to Buckner's Maybe not every error, but the ones that indirectly result in a key playoff loss are. I think lots of people thought of Buckner when they saw the error, but some people knew better than to acutally say it. On a damage scale of 1 to 10 (Buckner's being a 10), this one was a 3.
posted by mayerkyl at 08:49 AM on October 06
It was the most costly error in baseball, how is it supposed to just go out the window? We all get over it and move on, and stop beating it to death? I know that I haven't exactly been going around for the past 20 years saying, "Ha ha Buckner ha ha."
posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:49 AM on October 06
Yup I heard a few idiots on the Radio mention the "c" word! Is the "Curse" alive and well in Boston?? ;-)
posted by daddisamm at 08:59 AM on October 06
I especially hate the national media and radio markets in other areas for exactly that reason.
posted by jerseygirl at 09:03 AM on October 06
Man, this post and thread illustrate just how little regard the poor WHITE Sox get. Has the team even been mentioned anywhere? Let's see, not in the post, which mentions the Yanks and the Angels as well as the RED Sox, although Zippinglou gives them a cursory mention in his post grouped with the Angels. How about a little love for the Southsiders? If they somehow manage to win the World Series they may be the least regarded team ever to do so.
posted by sic at 09:09 AM on October 06
I especially hate the national media and radio markets in other areas for exactly that reason. Because of the C word, or because of the B name? I think it's inevitable, to a degree, that markets elsewhere are never going to understand your team as well as you do, and are primarily going to represent them as a pastiche of frequently outworn stereotypes. You could wish it were otherwise, but every team gets that.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:10 AM on October 06
On a damage scale of 1 to 10 (Buckner's being a 10), this one was a 3. But Buckner's error isn't a "10". His error turned a tie game into a loss, but it didn't cost them the series as they still had a chance to win in game 7. A "10" level error would be turning a win into a loss and losing the series with no chance of future redemption (Game 7, bottom of the 9th (or later) inning). I'd say that Buckner's error would be more of an 8.5 out of 10. Mariano Rivera's throwing error in the bottom of the 9th in Game 7 of the World Series in 2001 is probably equal in severity to Buckner's because of the timing and end result (win to loss for the series). However, it would have been only the 1st out of the inning, so that's why it's also an 8.5 and not a 10 (in my mind). If they somehow manage to win the World Series they may be the least regarded team ever to do so. The 1997 Florida Marlins say hello.
posted by grum@work at 09:17 AM on October 06
No way. 87 Twins. On the Cardinals front, today is the day we find out if Mark Mulder was worth it.
posted by mbd1 at 09:19 AM on October 06
Good call Grum, I'll go as low as a 9. And Mulder will be worth it.
posted by mayerkyl at 09:25 AM on October 06
Buckner was just one bad actor in the Game Six loss -- I'd blame McNamara, Schiraldi and Stanley just as much (well, I wouldn't blame them -- I'm a Mets fan)... Worst Series-turning error: Don Denkinger, Game Six 1985...
posted by ajaffe at 09:34 AM on October 06
Can I just say that, after listening to the Houston-Atlanta game, John Franco makes a terrible color man on the radio? I forget who was doing the play-by-play, but Franco kept stepping on his flow, making stupid comments, saying he said things he didn't say. I kinda like ESPN bringing veteran ballplayers in the booth for the playoffs, but they need a better audition process. As much as I'm looking forward to the Clemens-Smoltz matchup, I might just skip it so I don't have to listen to such awful coverage.
posted by rocketman at 09:38 AM on October 06
I'm a lifelong Cards fan so back to their front. Mulder has been terrible with day games this year but I do agree with you mayerkyl, he will show his good stuff today. GO CARDS!!
posted by Big D Alexander at 09:53 AM on October 06
I kinda like ESPN bringing veteran ballplayers in the booth for the playoffs, but they need a better audition process. Was Bret Boone in the ESPN or FOX booth when his brother hit that HR two years ago? He was actually quite a good "3rd man" in the booth. Since his playing days seem to be over, someone should try and scoop him up.
posted by grum@work at 09:54 AM on October 06
Piazza's just a sack full of clichés up there... he's got a promising future!
posted by cl at 09:59 AM on October 06
Maybe not every error, but the ones that indirectly result in a key playoff loss are. So you still compare playoff errors to Merkle's Boner around your house?
posted by yerfatma at 10:04 AM on October 06
Was Bret Boone in the ESPN or FOX booth when his brother hit that HR two years ago? I dunno, but it was probably FOX - ESPN only uses 2 guys on the radio (I don't have a television). I seem to remember Rich Aurilia doing a decent job last year. The most embarassing gaffe Franco made yesterday was in the post-game interview with Craig Biggio, and he asked the exact same question the other announcer had asked before him - something about "knowing how to win". Biggio just repeated his answer, and I don't think I heard another word from Franco for the rest of the broadcast.
posted by rocketman at 10:11 AM on October 06
So you still compare playoff errors to Merkle's Boner around your house? That's not quite fair, since Graffanino's error and Buckner's error also looked similar, at least superficially; ball rolls slowly under glove, through legs, run scores. Also, they play for the same franchise. Merkle's Boner belongs to a completely different class of mistake; it's not even an "error" in the scorecard sense. I am pretty sure that if something analogous happens in the 2005 playoffs, somebody on SportsFilter will make the comparison! Mistakes like that are never forgotten. Also, can I say to rocketman, that was a beautiful link.
posted by Amateur at 10:18 AM on October 06
Yes, Boone was on the BOS/NYY series and I thought he handled that moment very well. If I remember correctly McCarver tried to pull him into some form of curse talk and he was very professional. I didn't hear Franco, but I think Piazza is good...way better than Sutcliffe and Boomer. I'd rank Lieter (unmentioned I think) the best of the player analysts though.
posted by YukonGold at 10:20 AM on October 06
What we will see next is Postseason Comeback Magic Part II, or the Chicago White Sox winning their first postseason series since 1917. You're right, sic, this isn't getting nearly enough attention.
posted by dusted at 10:41 AM on October 06
Man, this post and thread illustrate just how little regard the poor WHITE Sox get. Has the team even been mentioned anywhere? Let's see, not in the post... Jesus, give it a rest. I also didn't mention the angels or astros because I secretly hate them also. I'm pretty sure everyone knows who's playing who. You could post about the amazing white sox, but it's easier to complain. How many times have you linked to a white sox story, ever? Oh, that's right, none. If they somehow manage to win the World Series they may be the least regarded team ever to do so. posted by sic And I'm sure you'll be the first to whine. /rant
posted by justgary at 10:44 AM on October 06
Only a moron would believe that Buckner's error will EVER be forgotten. Oh for Christ sake - Graffanino's error happened in the 5th INNING of game 2 of the ALDS. There is no comparison. I don't care how many idiots bring it up as the benchmark for playoff ineptitude - it's wrong and misapplied in this case, as well as in many others. I'm not suggesting it be forgotten, Big Alexander, I'm suggesting it be put into proper context. And no, the wonderful talented people at FOX Sports aren't likely to do that. Let's not regurgitate their inainities and propogate their idiocy. Buckner's error carries (carried) weight because it was seen as indicative of the Curse. The Curse was that the Sox wouldn't win the World Series. Well, guess what. So let's all act like people who know what they're talking about.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 10:48 AM on October 06
I don't care how many idiots bring it up as the benchmark for playoff ineptitude Agreed 100% with you on the "idiots" designation. However, the "idiots" also include somebody at the Boston Globe (I'm not surprised, but some folks might be). On the sports page of boston.com, they have a link to a survey in which they ask the following question: "On a magnitude scale of 1 to 10 (1 being not a big deal and 10 being, well, on par with Bill Buckner's error in '86), how will Tony Graffanino's error last night play in Boston?" The Globe's home-team-flagellation has really reached unattractive levels.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 11:02 AM on October 06
I think Piazza is good...way better than Sutcliffe and Boomer I really wish we didn't have to compare those 3 guys. Let's just say none of them are Vin Scully. Am I the only one who got pissed when Boomer kept repeating the fact that the Chi Sox's 14 runs Tuesday night also happens to be what "2 touchdowns and 2 extra points" are worth? We're watching baseball, Boomer. Playoff baseball, even.
posted by cl at 11:05 AM on October 06
Personally, I enjoyed Joe Morgan telling me - twice - about the Yankees "two hundred thousand dollar" payroll.
posted by drevl at 11:22 AM on October 06
Am I the only one who got pissed when Boomer kept -- Breathing? Talking? Existing? Yes.
posted by jerseygirl at 11:26 AM on October 06
the 87 Twins limped into the playoffs-the Clinched the Division with like a week to go then lost their last 6-7 games or so- Bert B. claims they could have been hung over!
posted by daddisamm at 11:38 AM on October 06
The 91 series had two teams that everybody disregaurded-After all they both game from worse to first! Nobaody wanted that match-up--very bad for the ratings mongers Funny that it turned out to be one of the best series ever!
posted by daddisamm at 11:42 AM on October 06
Am I the only one who got pissed when Boomer kept -- Breathing? Talking? Existing? Yes. posted by jerseygirl at 11:26 AM CST on October 6 Boomer seems like he is trying to call a game with a rag in his mouth --everything seems so-----forced!?
posted by daddisamm at 11:44 AM on October 06
Bert Blyleven gets mentioned in two different threads, by two different users, on the same day -- what are the odds of that?
posted by Amateur at 11:45 AM on October 06
Boomer seems like he is trying to call a game with a rag in his mouth --everything seems so-----forced!? That's not a rag. When he's not trying to work in one of his preplanned terminology "PODSENIK ADVENTURE!" into the game, he's spending equal time kissing everyone's ass.
posted by jerseygirl at 11:51 AM on October 06
Am I the only one who got pissed when Boomer kept -- Breathing? Talking? Existing? Yes. You meant 'No', right?
posted by qbert72 at 12:12 PM on October 06
No, see jerseygirl, there's this umpire with the same name as our third baseman, so that could be good luck. Did you miss it the first game? I'll point it out again during the second. Same name!!!1
posted by justgary at 12:14 PM on October 06
The Globe's home-team-flagellation has really reached unattractive levels. What, you mean just because their football, basketball and hockey leads all hate the team they cover? It's perverse. And don't forget the BostonDirtDogs idiot. Too bad the Globe doesn't let their writers go on WEEI anymore. It might cause an implosion.
posted by yerfatma at 12:19 PM on October 06
Wells pitched a good game and deserved better. He proved he's a big game pitcher again. JustGary, someone seems to disagree wth you.
posted by wfrazerjr at 12:23 PM on October 06
And don't forget the BostonDirtDogs idiot. Steve Silva is a buffoon. He may just hate the team more than CHB.
posted by jerseygirl at 12:45 PM on October 06
The error may not have the same magnitude as the Buckner error, but I'd be lying if I said the first thing that came to my mind wasn't Bill Buckner. It's not a reach. Any time a soft 'n easy grounder rolls under the glove or through the five-hole of a Red Sox infielder during a playoff game -- particularly if it leads to unearned runs that decide the outcome of the game -- then I'd have to be an amnesiac to think of anything other than Bill Buckner. It's perfectly natural.
posted by the red terror at 12:49 PM on October 06
JustGary, someone seems to disagree wth you. Well, I'll just have to disagree with him. Wells could have easily won that game. It wasn't perfectly pitched, but after the first game, and on the road, I'll take it. And he's 42. No, he's not randy johnson, but not many are. If there's no error and the sox go on to win 4-2 he's telling us what a big game pitcher wells is. The error may not have the same magnitude as the Buckner error, but I'd be lying if I said the first thing that came to my mind wasn't Bill Buckner. It's not a reach. I don't know. Buckner's error is sketched on my childhood mind, but it never went through my mind until I read it today. Just such different circumstances, and the sox still had plenty of chances to come from behind.
posted by justgary at 12:55 PM on October 06
You guys really need to let my error go, I have.
posted by BillBuckner at 01:02 PM on October 06
You guys really need to let my error go, I have.
posted by chris2sy at 01:12 PM on October 06
Also, no wonder Buckner was pissy about it when it happened...can you imagine being asked to sign stuff like this (assuming the pic is accurate):
posted by chris2sy at 01:21 PM on October 06
No to change the Subject--but do the Braves really have a bullpen!
posted by daddisamm at 01:33 PM on October 06
posted by cl at 01:53 PM on October 06
there's this umpire with the same name as our third baseman you mean your third baseman Buell Mueller?
posted by goddam at 01:55 PM on October 06
may buckner rot in hell
posted by maclmn at 02:06 PM on October 06
Eternal damnation may be a bit harsh (it's a game!). May Buckner serve a 24 hour detention in hell.
posted by Bill Lumbergh at 02:32 PM on October 06
The White Sox should be lightly regarded. In fact, considerng the last time they went to the World Series, they sold it to the highest bidder, the team should have been disbanded forever.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 02:33 PM on October 06
>>I especially hate the national media and radio markets in other areas for exactly that reason. That error last night made me cringe but no more so than referring to cities as f#ckin' "markets". That sorta madison avenue/salesman/always-be-closing bullsh*t drives me nuts. It's a CITY full of people not a market full of wallets. Ahhh!
posted by JohnSFO at 03:00 PM on October 06
Any chance I could incentivize you to give us your demographic information and a quick pulse check on your thoughts on a few new NBC shows?
posted by yerfatma at 03:55 PM on October 06
Your ideas interest me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. :)
posted by JohnSFO at 04:01 PM on October 06
No, it's market.
posted by jerseygirl at 04:27 PM on October 06
"Any time a soft 'n easy grounder rolls under the glove or through the five-hole of a Red Sox infielder during a playoff game ... then I'd have to be an amnesiac to think of anything other than Bill Buckner." No shit. Everyone else older than 20 needs to stop pretending otherwise. Split the wickets of a BoSox infielder in the playoffs, and "BUCKNER!" immediately jumps to your forebrain. It's not as big a hit, no, but it's certainly reminiscent enough to be able to dance to it.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 07:44 PM on October 06
Then I return to my original point: do you always think of Fred Snodgrass when someone drops a popup? Does Fred Merkle jump to mind when someone forgets to touch a base? Nope. Just Buckner because lazy media types use it as an easy synechoche for an error in the playoffs.
posted by yerfatma at 09:17 PM on October 06
do you always think of Fred Snodgrass when someone drops a popup? Does Fred Merkle jump to mind when someone forgets to touch a base? Absolutely. I had to look up synecdoche, though. OK, I'm being a bit stupid, but I think that there's a big difference, yerfatma. Although I know about those mistakes, I never saw them, and I never will, so I don't have any visual reference. But I watched Buckner make that error. Even if they didn't keep bringing it up, I think I would still make the connection in my mind.
posted by Amateur at 09:59 PM on October 06
Maybe... or could it be that those guys played before any of us were born?
posted by cl at 10:00 PM on October 06
Good link yerfatma. Like I said before, buckner never crossed my mind. Maybe non-fans make the connection better. Or those that mentioned the damn curse every 5 minutes. I'm betting graffanino receives a standing O friday.
posted by justgary at 10:18 PM on October 06
Although I know about those mistakes, I never saw them, and I never will I know. I was being a bit stupid on purpose as well. The fact something was caught on tape shouldn't make . . . I dunno. It just seems like lazy thinking to drop something in an existing, pre-conceived bucket because it looks like something else, as thought Lee Harvey Oswald is a point of reference for what any future assasin must be like. I'm betting graffanino receives a standing O friday. Seems a little unlikely, but I'll try to get it started.
posted by yerfatma at 06:08 AM on October 07
"Everyone else older than 20 needs to stop pretending otherwise." Reading your comment it just dawned on me that I'm getting old much faster than I thought. It was almost 20 years ago that Buckner made his "one for the ages" error, and the memory of it is still fresh in my mind.
posted by the red terror at 09:07 AM on October 07
"Just Buckner because lazy media types use it as an easy synechoche for an error in the playoffs." The second I saw the error, my immediate thought was "Bill Buckner!!" McCarver or Buck said the exact same thing minutes later. That's not laziness -- it's obviousness, and there's nothing wrong with stating the obvious. The Bill Buckner play is one of the most widely recognized and remembered plays in the history of American televised sports. A baseball fan would have to be either a moron or a very small child not to make the connection. Suck it up Bosox fan -- every time one of your infielders boots a routine grounder during a playoff game and that error directly leads to a Red Sox loss, then baseball fans everywhere are going to be thinking about yo' boy Bill Buckner, even if the magnitude is not quite the same. It's not a thought crime ... it's hard-wired into our genes. And lest there be any confusion in future, should a half-pint Yankee infielder come up to Fenway with the post-season sweepstakes on the line and drill a three-run shot over the green monster, sorry, but it's only reasonable to expect that people are going to think & say "Bucky Dent." Again, that's not laziness, it's obviousness.
posted by the red terror at 09:21 AM on October 07
Wouldn't it be Bucky Fu@@ing Dent?
posted by jojomfd1 at 09:27 AM on October 07
there's nothing wrong with stating the obvious The game was on ESPN, not Fox.
posted by yerfatma at 11:36 AM on October 07
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