While I undertstand where you are coming from with your comments, Chicobangs. I think its better to offer our prayers and sympathy and leave the matter alone. Each person grieves in his/her own way!.
On a less emotional note, Roger has no reason to retire now- his whole reason the first time was that he wanted his mom alive to see his actual HoF induction (obviously it was a foregone conclusion he would make it). Now? Well jeez, he's second on the K list to only Nolan Ryan, and has an outside but hardly unimaginable chance to reach 400 wins and 5,000 strikeouts. He's 43 years old, but you could never tell that by watching him- his 1.77 ERA is insanely low for this era, and with more run support he'd be cruising to his eighth Cy Young right now. I wouldn't be surprised if he can still put it up when he's 47; I'm sure he's thinking, "I can pitch until I'm Nolan's age...", and why not? If nothing else, I suspect he wants to keep pitching until Randy Johnson retires or is no longer a threat to take his #2 strikeout position. Sure, a lot can change in a couple of years, but he's more like Nolan Ryan in his strength and longevity than anyone I've ever seen. I can't see any reason besides a fluke injury that he'd be unable to pitch another 3 years. We may hate the guy for a variety of reasons, and he may be dumb as a bag of rocks, but I think we can pretty much say that he is simply the greatest pitcher who ever lived. The numbers he finishes with will be staggering. I'm not even joking when I suggest they may have to rename the Cy Young award after him once he finally retires.
Yes - we have been, uh, privledged?, to witness the careers of two of the biggest jerks - but best players - the game has ever seen: Bonds and Clemens. My feeling is Clemens would pitch on a day that his wife died, but it's hardly important what I think. I'd just as soon enjoy watching a total master at the top of his craft show the younguns how it's done. I see no reason that he can't pitch for another few years - but I also want to see his crash year, the year where he loses it and goes 3-8 with a 5.70 ERA and retires mid-season. Petty schadenfreude is fun. too.
but I think we can pretty much say that he is simply the greatest pitcher who ever lived. Whew, that's a tough one to support. I agree that he definitely has to be in the discussion, but I can't immediately say that he's the best of all time. A couple more seasons might make that decision easier, however. Other pitchers in the discussion: (in order of how I rank them) Walter Johnson Pedro Martinez Tom Seaver Cy Young Lefty Grove Pete Alexander Warren Spahn I'd put Clemens between Martinez and Johnson, but Martinez has the potential to catch Clemens after he's passed Johnson. And before anyone says "You forgot [pitcher X]!", I'll just say that I didn't forget Nolan Ryan, Sandy Koufax or Greg Maddux. Ryan - yes, he had a lot of no-hitters, but he also had a lot of walks and his ERA wasn't that great. Koufax - too short of a career to seriously consider as the greatest of all time. Martinez has pitched two more seasons than him and is still going. Maddux - I don't think he's better than Clemens, and they are direct contemporaries. The other ones on the list above (except for Martinez) are from different eras.
Grum, " You forgot Bob Gibson!"
I think Pedro's an upper echelon Hall of Famer - but how can you on one hand dismiss Koufax and take Martinez with the other - I find their careers remarkably similar. Really from 1998 - 2002 Martinez was untouchable - rest of the time, better than average. Like Koufax. Pedro has the better individual years - but his career can't really be compared to Clemens. Clemens right now slots in with the others you mentioned for sure, though. I can only think of two other pitchers that I'd put ahead of him right now - Johnson and Young. Maddux is not as good - but still a top ten.
Grum, " You forgot Bob Gibson!" Okay, that's really funny because I originally had Bob Gibson in my "Player X" list! But I took him out of there because I didn't really think anyone would consider him better than those that I listed above.
I think Pedro's an upper echelon Hall of Famer - but how can you on one hand dismiss Koufax and take Martinez with the other - I find their careers remarkably similar. Really from 1998 - 2002 Martinez was untouchable - rest of the time, better than average. Like Koufax. If you look on the baseball-reference website, they have a stat called "ERA+". This is a measurement of how good the pitcher's ERA was (adjusted for ballpark) compared to the rest of the league. Pedro has 4 seasons over 200 (where 100 is league average). Koufax has 0 seasons. Pedro's career ERA+ (as of 2004) is 167. Koufax's career ERA+ was 131. Pedro also has a better K/9, K/BB and HR/9IP (which is astounding since Koufax pitched all his career on a higher mound AND in one of the most pitcher-friendly parks at that time). Finally, Pedro will end up with a longer career than Koufax, which should definitely be taken into consideration. Don't get me wrong, Koufax is a top 20 pitcher in my mind. But Pedro is, well, just better. He might even be the best someday.
Pedro? Best Ever? High end hall of famer yeah, but I can't put him on the best ever list. Not yet anyway.
Yeah - read the adjusted ERA stuff after I posted - you're right, Pedro's best years are actually statistically better than Koufax's - but damn those strikeout totals are sexy.
Pedro? Best Ever? High end hall of famer yeah, but I can't put him on the best ever list. Not yet anyway. I will admit that if his career ended after this year, he might actually drop a few slots on my "best-ever" listing. I'm just projecting a normal career (with declining stats at the tail end) and ranking him based on that. It's cheating, but he's the only active young(ish) pitcher who isn't (supposed to be) in their full-decline phase that would even qualify for my top 20 list. Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens and Greg Maddux are (supposed to be) at the tail-end of their careers and aren't expected to produce anymore HOF quality seasons. Johnson and Maddux are proving that point...freak-boy Clemens just keeps on chugging and ruining that idea.
He's no punk!. I hate baseball but I will be pulling for the man as he represents Houston, which is my stomping ground. South/West .God bless him! .I can't wait for dem ROCKETS To go to war ! T-mac and dem boys are for real!
