04/18/24
March 06, 2004
What if? As a Bruins fan, I liked the Bobby Orr part better. Good stuff.
posted by yerfatma at 06:02 PM on March 06, 2004
It's an interesting read, but like owl says, it doesn't take into account salaries (and egos). Can Edmonton afford to pay Gretzky, Kurri, Messier, Fuhr, Coffey and the fringe stars (Anderson, Lowe, Tikkanen, Huddy)? Probably not. Especially if hockey doesn't take off in La La Land (and other American markets) and FOX/ESPN don't shell out some big(ger) bucks to broadcast the games in the local markets. It's not a lot of money (compared to NFL/NBA/MLB) but it's still more than what they were getting before Gretzky left. Would Messier continue to play in the shadow of Gretzky? He didn't ascend to the pinnacle of leadership until Gretzky left and he led the Oilers to the cup in 1990. I can't see where he'd settle for second fiddle for any time after that, so I imagine his desire to establish himself (correctly) as a star player might have pushed him out of Edmonton (the same way that Coffey jumped to Pittsburgh). For the record, I've always wondered what a Gretzky-led Oilers team would have done against the Lemieux-led Penguins. If it occurred in 1991, the tail end of the great scoring era, then I think we would have seen some of the greatest playoff hockey games in NHL history. As it was, Lemiuex and the Penguins faced a woefully inadequate opposition each time (North Stars and Blackhawks), not really producing legendary games. On preview: I don't know if modern surgery would have given Orr another 12 years of playing time. Bad knees are bad knees, and they'll eventually fail regardless of how good the previous surgeries have been. I could definitely see where he gets another 5-7 years of quality playing time though, and that would definitely make him a strong contender for greatest ever.
posted by grum@work at 06:06 PM on March 06, 2004
is it a chicken and egg thing? does putting gretzky in LA and bring increased expansion and increased TV money - does that mean more money is paid in salaries than otherwise would have been paid? Or is he moved because salaries were increasing? i mean gretzky never made huge salary $$$ as far as i recall. he was highly paid in relative terms ($3-$4 mil?) for the times but not making 11 million a season. ...and running an oilers v pens matchup through a whatifsports simulation... 87-88 Oilers at the 91-92 Pens - Oilers 9, Pens 5. Not quite a late era Oilers dynasty vs the top of the line Pens but what can you do.
posted by gspm at 06:48 PM on March 06, 2004
Okay, that would have been a HELL of a game to watch. Everything came in bunches in that 2nd period: 4 goals in 2:09, 4 MORE goals in 1:55, 3 MORE goals in 2:16, and then the period closes out with 3 goals in 48 SECONDS. Of course, when I run the sim with Edmonton at home, and you end up with the one of the craziest results I've ever seen. Check out Mark Messier!
posted by grum@work at 09:18 PM on March 06, 2004
Those two sim games place Messier as the more important cog, at least point-wise.
posted by gspm at 11:25 AM on March 07, 2004
Man, sometimes What-If seems eerily real (or maybe I'm just to willing to suspend disbelief due to the way-too-exciting-to-be-real details). I remember simming a Sox-Yanks tily that featured a bench-clearing brawl.
posted by yerfatma at 02:20 PM on March 07, 2004
I liked revised history #4 in this scenario (College Basketball). Gee, imagine that! : ) The whole What-If issue was really interesting.
posted by Sister Havana at 09:19 PM on March 07, 2004
gspm, that whatif site is awesome. thanks.
posted by garfield at 09:39 AM on March 08, 2004
Usually, Kara Yorio is a pretty insightful hockey writer, but I think she's wrong across the board here. Y'all are right about the Oilers not being able to pay for all that talent, and as great as they were, 7 cups is still a tall order. I've never had a "best-player-ever" discussion that didn't involve Orr, even now (he's always been top-three in my mind anyways), so aside from inflated numbers, I don't see what would have been different. (Actually, Sinden would have traded Orr to the Rangers instead of letting him go to the Blackhawks, and he'd have made the difference when the Blueshirts went to the finals in '79. There's your 1940 curse removal.) There would still be a team in L.A. of one kind or another, and southern expansion and American grassroots movements would have still happened. On a different timetable, but still.
posted by chicobangs at 10:27 AM on March 08, 2004
ok - i thought that the gretzky trade was the proverbial straw on the camel's back when it came to salaries. it broke the personal services contract he had with pocklington, which otherwise could have kept his salary down? certainly average salaries began increasing post 1989.
posted by owl at 10:59 AM on March 08, 2004
garfield: it was originally posted in the zombie thread that lurches forward, good old 205. The thread started in March 2002 and I added a comment in July of 2003 and two subsequent comments have late extended the life to November of last year. Though, it must be said, the site certainly seems more comprehensive now than I can remember it being a year ago. Though, seemingly they've removed some features. It used to sim a 7 game series.
posted by gspm at 11:30 AM on March 08, 2004
wonder what would have happened to salaries. good read, thanks.