FanDuel - WFBC

October 16, 2003

Curses!

posted by rcade to baseball at 11:25 PM - 105 comments

Who'd a thunk it... pulled Pedro too late.

posted by swank6 at 11:28 PM on October 16

same old....same old.

posted by oliver_crunk at 11:29 PM on October 16

When Grady Little slapped Pedro's shoulder instead of taking the ball, I was one of millions yelling "what the fuck?" at the TV.

posted by dusted at 11:30 PM on October 16

Wife: That's a really low average that guy (Aaron Boone) has. Why is he playing in the playoffs? Me: That's a really good ques... TV: CRACK! YELL! CHEER! Wife: Nevermind.

posted by grum@work at 11:31 PM on October 16

Warning to the Yankees and the Marlins: DO NOT TAKE 3-RUN LEAD INTO THE 8TH INNING OF A DECIDING GAME! IT'S BAD LUCK!

posted by grum@work at 11:32 PM on October 16

Said it on mefi, I'll say it here... go fish

posted by Ufez Jones at 11:34 PM on October 16

It's even worse luck if the announcer mentions being five outs away from winning.

posted by dirigibleman at 11:34 PM on October 16

I'll start to believe in curses when there is no other reason for a loss. 1.First and third, no outs. Yankees are willing to give up the run. Strike out and double play. And of course it comes back to haunt them. 2.To leave Pedro in when your relief has been top notch is nuts. Grady basically gave it away. On a side note my wife walked in at the beginning of the tenth and I told her I knew how the game would end: a yankee homerun. If a knuckle ball pitcher makes a mistake your in trouble. Great as a starter; when you can't allow a run not so much.

posted by justgary at 11:37 PM on October 16

Theo Epstein should have fired Grady Little in the middle of the eighth inning. After 17 years of hearing about the Clemens-McNamara dispute over getting pulled/asking out, Grady going out like that seems to me an awful lot like an abdication of responsibility. There's absolutely no way Pedro *asks* to come out; it's practically an affront to his manhood. And with Timlin having thrown 9 IP with 0 ER, I just don't get it. (I also don't get intentional walking Ruben Sierra, but that didn't end up hurting them.) Anyway, WOW. What a playoffs.

posted by Mookieproof at 11:44 PM on October 16

You still with us, jerseygirl?

posted by Mookieproof at 11:46 PM on October 16

barely. if i had balls, it would feel like someone kicked me in them right now.

posted by jerseygirl at 11:48 PM on October 16

SpoFi: if i had balls, it would feel like someone kicked me in them right now.

posted by gyc at 11:56 PM on October 16

I knew that would get tagged. I will say though, I'm glad that Clemens got nailed early and pulled. The guy seems like a Grade-A asshole. Let's hope he fails no better in the WS.

posted by Ufez Jones at 12:01 AM on October 17

Let's go Bruins! sigh.

posted by Samsonov14 at 12:07 AM on October 17

Let's hope he fails no better in the WS. Um, that should be fares, but you know. I ran four miles, so I can drink four beers. So i have!

posted by Ufez Jones at 12:09 AM on October 17

Hey, at least the Wolf Pack beat the Cheatahs tonight. Does that count?

posted by NoMich at 12:16 AM on October 17

Sorry, I am just going to swear and rant and call for the death of a human being right now. Don't mind me. Joining Bucky Fucking Dent, Bill Fucking Buckner... Grady Fucking Little. If this guy is in a Red Sox uniform in spring training, I am boycotting baseball. Someone tell his bumblefuck he has the upperhand with his pitcher, please. I tried to stay with him all season long, but he single handedly ruined what was probably the biggest sporting event in New England, ever. This was, in my opinion, worse than losing the fucking World Series. I couldn't believe they tied up the game. I think at that point, I started to wonder if I was watching some flashback reel. I may have had a seizure right about then too. I tried to hold on, I did, but generally I sat on the couch comatosed for a good hour before I decided it was time to pray. I haven't been to church since I did confirmation and am not much of a religious girl, but out of desperation, I kneeled and prayed tonight. "Please god, for Boston. Please just one year for us. Don't let this happen to us again." I just wanted one year. Just one fucking year where we could have some small amount of victory because the fans fucking deserved it and the town fucking deserved it. The Yankees could win for the next 5 years, I just wanted the Red Sox to win for Boston. And I really, really wanted this for my Dad this year. The Red Sox handed that win to the Yankees. It fucking kills me. I wish I could be complimentary to the Yankees bats or the Yankees fielding or pitching, but the truth is, we fucking gave you that game because Grady doesn't have the testicles to take his ace out, even though he looks tired and the very capable pen is ready. Pedro worked out of jams and did a great job, but he had no business being in the game in the 8th. The NYPD should have grabbed Grady on the top step of the dugout, as he was returning from the mound after a check on Pedro, and shot him in the temple and handed the roster to Varitek. Yankee fans, congrats. When calmer heads prevail and I stop crying, I am sure I will find something more complimentary to say to you guys, but for now, just be gracious winners about the W because it was a fucking gift. Oh, and remember your manners and send your thank you notes to : Grady Little, c/o The Boston Red Sox 2 Yawkey Way, Boston MA

posted by jerseygirl at 12:18 AM on October 17

The Red Sox handed that win to the Yankees. Truer words never spoken. I hate it when fans/players say they gave the game away. But I'll make an exception with this one. The yankees should pay Grady a bonus. Radio, tv, internet....no one could believe he left Pedro in. No doubt he should be fired.

posted by justgary at 12:28 AM on October 17

I didn't see the end of the game- I couldn't. Once it went to extra innings, I turned it off. I knew it would play out this way- I am fuming that Grady couldn't just quilt together a simple frickin' win. Your starter gave you 7 amazing innings of 1 run ball. Pat him on the back, and go to your pen- in a game 7, you can't ask for a better gift, and expecting to get a 9 inning gem is just begging to be cursed. It's a simple rule, especially in the playoffs: in the last three innings, if a pitcher starts giving up hits and putting people on, you take him out. I don't care if Walter Johnson is on the mound, you take him out. And both Grady Little and Dusty Baker fucked it up the same exact goddamned way. God damn them both to hell. To see the Cubs, then the Red Sox, both lose heartbreaking come-from-behind game 7s on consecutive days- it's evil. There is a God, and he is evil. In theory, I have to root for the Marlins, because I hate the Yankees. Hate them. But I refuse to watch the World Series, refuse to watch it at all- it's an abomination, as is the Yankees franchise.

posted by hincandenza at 12:36 AM on October 17

Living in Boston, I've found this baseball postseason exciting enough for even a complete baseball non-fan like myself to watch. Now that both the Cubs and the Sox have lost, I have absolutely NO desire to watch the World Series at all... what a shame.

posted by swank6 at 12:46 AM on October 17

As that debacle developed, I cursed that Dusty and Grady should both be shipped to the same insane asylum to play game 7 of a hypothetical World Series over and over again for the rest of their lives. 'Okay it's your turn to win - you left Prior in too long yesterday. I'll leave Martinez in too long today.'

posted by kokaku at 12:57 AM on October 17

Holy. Fucking. Shit. Those are the only words that can be spoken. I can't talk. I had given up by inning 4 and was making my best effort to drink my face off (If I can't remember it, it didn't happen), making friends with some BoSox bartenders. And eventually things turned around. Giambi's 2nd made me cross my fingers again, but even then I was cursing him for making me care again. I had figured a big loss would be easier to take than a close one. Still, I expected the worst. The Sox seemed to have that magic. But I overestimated Grady (I can't wait to see the Sports Guy tear him apart) and the next thing I knew I was best friends with the random people next to me. (The Yankee fans in my company had even left by inning 9, which sucked... I refused to leave my bar spot, despite myurgent need to piss). Anyway, I was just waiting for the inevitable when Posada brought those runs in... I was screaming. By 9, I was just standing there, in awe that the game was still on. What a fitting ending to the season - extras. Figures. So anyway, I expected,especially after Ortiz guessed that nicecurve perfectly, the game to end soon, but Mo (who I pessimisticly didn't trust) went 3. I was tearing handfuls of hair out when he went back out. Anyway, Aaron Boone, my 2nd least favorite Yankee (after Mr. I Only Swing at Balls Soriano) did the absolute last thing I expected him to do... he was the 15th Yankee I would have chosen to hit it out... he hit it out. And much to my surprise, a previously Sox-laden crowd cheered, the Yankees took it, and the Sox fans were gracious. I bought a round of shots for me, some new Sox friends, and the bartender, and proceeded to yell my lungs out. This was unbelievable. I am hammered beyond belief due to 7 full shots after the home run catching up to me, but I am perfectly OK with it. And after all I have said about the Sox fans and not liking them, I can honestly say that I feel the Sox fans' pain and I appreciate them. I fully expected a loss and somehow they pulled it out, and it amazed me. Wow is really all I can say, and I am acually embarassed to say that at one point after the win there was actually a "Red Sox Suck" chant (several minutes out though),which I tried to squash. Anyway, Pedro, in his post game interview, sacked up and took it like a man, and suddenly I hate him a whole lot less. He was mature, humble, and honest. It impressed me. And I'm definitely a believer in the supernatural after that and the Cubs loss.... I am really just blown away. I met a ton of honorable cool Sox fans tonight,and for them and the few here I genuinely feel awful. This was by far the best game I have ever seen, and it is a shame someone had to lose. Hopefully this on-paper lame ass world series can hold even part of a candle to this series. (non fans, I can totally understand your disinterest, the dynasty vs. the team noone cares about... I actually saw a replay of the big renteria hit in 97 the other day and realizedI had never actually seen it before. How pathetic is that? At least Fox will lose money on this.) Once again, wow. I'm actually now rooting for the Bruins just because after that, I can no longer wish anything bad upon Boston Sports fans. Wow. I am going to be so hung over at work tomorrow. I did 7 shots after the game (mostly with very cool Sox fans,bartender included...I ducked some Yankee fan shot rounds so I could drive) Wow. Aaron Fucking Boone will be added to Boston vocabulary, and really, I am still in shock that he of all people did it. How did his brother react on Fox? I was in a loud bar and the sound was off (thankfully) so I didn't hear it. Was it as bad as/worse than Darrell Waltrip in 2001 when Michael won the Daytona 500?

posted by Bernreuther at 01:24 AM on October 17

well, I can't even understand most of what I just said. Sorry. Intelligent discussion to come tomorrow.

posted by Bernreuther at 01:27 AM on October 17

Sunday couldn't come soon enough.

posted by taupe at 01:37 AM on October 17

I have to pipe in here. Nothing original. My grandfather is 85 years old. Grew up in Hyde Park. He and I just knew that this was the year. We live on different coasts, but I know when I call him tomorrow his first words to me will be "Grady Fucking Little." I have not had a fit like this since '86. I am a pretty peaceful guy, but when Yankee run #5 scored, I wanted to punch the wall. Maybe that is getting too worked up over a game - all right, logically, it is getting too worked up over a game - but I could just feel the inevitable unknown Yankee player's homerun sneaking up on us. As soon as the game was tied, that was the only possible outcome. Oh, the pain. The pain.

posted by Joey Michaels at 03:13 AM on October 17

How did his brother react on Fox? I was in a loud bar and the sound was off (thankfully) so I didn't hear it. Was it as bad as/worse than Darrell Waltrip in 2001 when Michael won the Daytona 500? Bret Boone cracked a small smile and had very little to say about the moment -- in keeping with his performance throughout the series. Al Leiter he ain't.

posted by rcade at 06:54 AM on October 17

Actually, I thought that Bret Boone was very good in the both. I can already see ESPN and FOX lining up to sign him the moment he retires from baseball. And when his brother hit the HR, FOX was BEGGING him to make a comment (or shout or cry or clap). But he was smart and didn't give them anything and let his brother have all the glory. Will someone please tell me who to cheer for? Yankees: hate the team, but wouldn't mind seeing Roger Clemens go out on a high note Marlins: hate the owner, but wouldn't mind seeing the Yankees lose to a team with a MUCH lower payroll Ugh. Either of the "cursed" teams would have been a better choice...

posted by grum@work at 07:16 AM on October 17

grum, just root for a series 1/3 as exciting as this one. I can't talk and it was most likely illegal for me to drive to work this morning. Lucky for me, it's free Krispy Kreme day :) you have to wonder, with stuff like this, if a pitching change would have made a difference. Some of those pitches that they hit were actually pretty good (Just like Ortiz drilled a good curve). It was just as if someone had flipped a switch. I'm going to avoid the Sox fans today, I don't know what to say to them. Actually there goes one, scowling at my logo. He's a nice guy too. Damn it, why didn't the Cubs win?

posted by Bernreuther at 07:26 AM on October 17

"This... this... this is stupid" - Aaron Boone.

posted by 86 at 07:28 AM on October 17

And I really wanted a reason to watch the World Series. Sigh. Oh well, it's hockey season!

posted by Succa at 07:59 AM on October 17

I'm sorry Sox fans, I was pulling for your team and your city.

posted by Mike McD at 08:19 AM on October 17

That's the spirit, Succa! I was loving the fact that when the Yankees were getting killed early on, at least I could watch hockey on the other screen. Nothing beats being able to watch playoff baseball, hockey, and football at the same time. Apparently there was basketball last night too, but really, who cares about that...

posted by Bernreuther at 08:19 AM on October 17

What jerseygirl said. And how. Go Fish.

posted by trox at 08:40 AM on October 17

you have to wonder, with stuff like this, if a pitching change would have made a difference. You keep telling yourself that. Really, we shouldn't have to 'wonder' at all. Pedro goes into the 8th holding the yankees to 2 runs. The only time the yankees looked good at the plate was against a tired Pedro. Anyone fresh and they did zilch. After sleeping on it I'm still not quite sure what grady was trying to prove. Pedro clearly out pitched clemens who looked all his 41 years old, and in probably the most hostile environment a pitcher has ever faced. I would have taken Pedro out after the 7th, but if not then surely after the first signs of trouble in the 8th. This was a gift from grady. Any objective fan would see it for what it is, or was. "It's awesome," said Tom Baniani of New City, N.J. "This is the best thing; we will always be the best." Of course, that's my experience with most yankee fans. Yankees: hate the team, but wouldn't mind seeing Roger Clemens go out on a high note But if not he can just have another kid and begin his name with a 'K', you know, in honor of himself! /sarcasm

posted by justgary at 08:41 AM on October 17

OK - they're cursed. Both of 'em. 5 outs away.... Waiter! There's too much corelation in my causality! And I believe I ordered a coincidence! My god - and I thought it was hard being a Leaf fan. Baseball is the ultimate heartbreak sport - cause it all happens with agonising clarity; slowly - right in front of you.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 09:07 AM on October 17

Me, as Little was walking back to the dugout after letting Martinez decide if he could stay in the game: "If they lose this game because of this, Little should be fired before he gets out of the stadium."

posted by jpoulos at 09:10 AM on October 17

If I hear Joe Torre say "this never gets old" one more time, I'm going to go Don Zimmer on him. I'm so glad you aren't bored with success yet, Joe.

posted by rcade at 09:29 AM on October 17

I will never have faith in Grady Little again. What on earth was he thinking...

posted by rosey8810 at 09:31 AM on October 17

Bottom of the 8th, one out, Sox lead 5-2 D Jeter doubled to deep right. [OK, pull Martinez now] B Williams singled to center, D Jeter scored, Sox lead 5-3. [OK, pull him now] H Matsui hit a ground rule double to deep right, B Williams to third [surely you'll pull him after back-to-back-to-back hits, all hard hits to the outfield. Uh, no.] J Posada doubled to center, B Williams and H Matsui scored, tie ball game [OK, now I've seen enough!] Little's not having the stones to yank Martinez ruined a great, redemptive performance by Pedro. He had something to prove after his meltdown in the earlier game, and he had proved it by his performance through the first seven innings. I just saw his postgame comments, and he was really classy to take the blame, but it was Little's fault. Mostly. The Sox had first and third with no outs in the top of the 4th, and a runner on second with one out in the top of the 5th, and couldn't score. A sac fly would've helped. Mike Mussina and Jason Giambi deserve a lot of credit for the win. After the Sox' bats finally woke up in Game 6 I thought the Yankees would not be able to keep them down, and Clemens couldn't. Mussina shut them down. Giambi's two home runs kept the Yankees in the game. I credit the Sox for not folding after they blew the lead. Most teams lay down when Rivera comes in, and they were hitting him. I actually thought they'd have the advantage after getting past him, until Boone came up to bat.

posted by kirkaracha at 09:34 AM on October 17

The NYPD should have grabbed Grady on the top step of the dugout, as he was returning from the mound after a check on Pedro, and shot him in the temple and handed the roster to Varitek. I'm curious as to why you said Varitek. Does he have managment in the plans? They should let him manage next season. Player-Managers back in the day were great. There haven't been any since Pete Rose, right?

posted by Bernreuther at 09:43 AM on October 17

I'm going to go Don Zimmer on him So, has "Don Zimmer" entered the popular lexicon now, a la "pulling a Homer"? Now that the actual event of the Marlins getting to the WS has eased from my mind, I can see how Red Sox/Cubs fans are so heartbroken. We Florida fans had our hearts ripped out of our chests and beaten into the ground with the massive Christmas sale of 97, sponsored by Wayne Huizenga. I'm still just hoping this doesn't happen again this Xmas (but I'm not keeping my hopes up).

posted by bcb2k2 at 09:48 AM on October 17

My, the Yankees fans are strangely silent here...

posted by aacheson at 10:13 AM on October 17

I'm in Florida, but I have trouble empathizing with the Marlins fans of 1997. The team was a bunch of rent-a-players and a rent-a-manager. You weren't supposed to be good enough to win a World Series that early in franchise history (see also Diamondbacks, Arizona). This Marlins team was built through years of fan suffering and is much more sympathetic. If they had snuffed the Braves or Giants instead of the Cubs, they would be the feel-good story of the postseason.

posted by rcade at 10:13 AM on October 17

Mike Mussina and Jason Giambi deserve a lot of credit for the win. After the Sox' bats finally woke up in Game 6 I thought the Yankees would not be able to keep them down, and Clemens couldn't. Mussina shut them down. Giambi's two home runs kept the Yankees in the game. That right there sums up why I despise the Yankees. They've got the best player from the Orioles roster and the best player from the A's roster. Maybe they can't with with talent they've developed but they sure are saavy evaluating all-stars.

posted by Mike McD at 10:15 AM on October 17

I'm a Reds fan. Jack McKeon used to manage the Reds, but he got fired. He just managed the Marlins to a 3 game straight come from behind victory against, winning two games in Wrigley Field, one of which was against Mark Prior, one of the top pitchers in the league. The Reds traded Aaron Boone before the deadline to the Yankees. He wasn't even in Game 6. Didn't have a good average. Then he goes and hits a pennant-winning homerun. Go Reds.

posted by insomnyuk at 10:18 AM on October 17

"Pedro wanted to stay in there,'' Little said, apparently mindful of passengers who wished to remain on the Titanic as it began taking on a bit of water. Great line. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/writers/tom_verducci/10/17/verducci.insider/

posted by msacheson at 11:09 AM on October 17

Oh and I just remembered this. When they were showing the replay of Matsui's double McCarver made a comment to the effect: Of all the managing decisions so far... I think the decision to let Pedro pitch to Matsui is the one most open to second guessing Oh really. You think so doctor? Thanks for the insight Tim ... Where's Deion when you need him.

posted by Mike McD at 11:11 AM on October 17

To see the Cubs, then the Red Sox, both lose heartbreaking come-from-behind game 7s on consecutive days- it's evil. There is a God, and he is evil. And people wonder how they get cursed.

posted by wfrazerjr at 11:11 AM on October 17

I call bullshit on this sentiment from a San Francisco Chronicle sportswriter:

Manager Grady Little will be roasted on the Boston talk shows all winter after his handling of the Boston pitching staff Thursday night. People will be calling for his head, and they just might get it. That's a shame. Little managed with his heart in this Game 7, and too few people understand what that means. Little wasn't blind to the remarkable success of the Red Sox's bullpen lately. He also knew the deeper truth, that you don't replace the game's most genius-like pitcher with someone named Timlin, Embree or Williamson if the genius wants to keep working.
Bullshit. Joe Torre managed with his head and he's going to the World Series. Do you think Roger Clemens wanted to leave the game? He's one of the best pitchers in the history of baseball and it would have been the last game of his career if the Sox had won, and Torre pulled him in the fourth. He did what he had to do to win.

posted by kirkaracha at 11:42 AM on October 17

I've got nothing. I feel like an ass for getting my girlfriend wrapped up in it. I said it was over when he patted Pedro on the ass and she didn't believe me. The thing you're all forgetting is Grady got burned with Lowe in the same manner in Game 5. How many times do you have to touch the stove before you remember it's hot? jerseygirl, the really nice thing about balls is if you punch yourself square in them first thing in the morning, you forget about the pain of the night before (for a while). Plus the day goes uphill from there. I said most of what I can say here.

posted by yerfatma at 12:04 PM on October 17

kirkaracha - I agree. In a game 7, if a pitcher so much as begins to look like he might start thinking about slowing up, he should get out. You're not playing for that game alone, remember. You're playing for the next series.

posted by bcb2k2 at 12:08 PM on October 17

Absofrigginlutely, Kirk. Clemens looked like a little kid whose bicycle was taken away when Torre pulled him so early. Yet he did the right thing and now Clemens gets to end his career in the series while the "game's most genius-like pitcher" doesn't. Bruce Jenkins is clueless.

posted by rcade at 12:35 PM on October 17

Why would people be calling for Grady Little's head? There's obviously nothing in it. Perhaps we can resurrect those cute little "101 Uses for a ..." books here: "101 Uses for Grady Little Empty Skull." 1) Dip bowl. 4) Bowling-ball bag 9) Doorstop (Nope, not enough weight) 16) Toilet-paper cozy. 25) Cigar humidor. 36) Holder for BP pitchers' baseballs 49) And so on. I'm not advocating his death, by the way ... but I'm looking for an illustrator.

posted by wfrazerjr at 12:58 PM on October 17

I'm apparently also looking for a proofreader.

posted by wfrazerjr at 12:58 PM on October 17

Tonight I'm going to clear my head by going to see "Radio: The Grady Little Story". Saw a preview and it looked amazing: INT. - OWNER'S BOX - FENWAY PARK Theo Epstein is livid with rage, barely keeping his temper with John Henry. Grady sits nearby THEO: We can't have him in charge of the team. JOHN HENRY: You take baseball away from that boy and you'll kill him! END SCENE

posted by yerfatma at 01:15 PM on October 17

My, the Yankees fans are strangely silent here... hi. i'm here. just don't have much to say. i'm not going to gloat cause there's nothing to gloat about. the yankees were not up to par this series and, as jerseygirl put it (such an odd name for a sox fan btw:-), the red sox handed the win to them. but, i'm also not going to apologize for being a yankee fan. i was born into it and so shall i remain, whether they win 100 games or lose 100. Bernreuther pretty much summed up a lot of my sentiments. i have a lot of respect for the sox and their fans this year.

posted by goddam at 01:28 PM on October 17

Little managed with his heart in this Game 7, and too few people understand what that means. you don't win baseball games on hunches and cozy little feelings from your heart. not the big games. i don't know why the hell he deviated from the formula that was seemingly getting the job done. now that i've stopped crying, i have made way for phase 3 which is unmitigated rage. the good news is, as of last night, Grady Little technically does not have a job. he'll never survive in this town, it's just better for everyone if he goes.

posted by jerseygirl at 01:35 PM on October 17

I keep checking the sportswire...
and amazingly Grady isn't fired yet.
How long do they intend to wait?

posted by lilnemo at 01:37 PM on October 17

the jg moniker came out of a song. not a horrible upcoming movie. boston born and bred and proud. but, i was in jersey once, i don't remember what exit. i can't manage a smiley for you today though.

posted by jerseygirl at 01:37 PM on October 17

i see, kind of figured it might have something to do with that. the tom waits song that everyone thinks bruce wrote.

posted by goddam at 01:42 PM on October 17

ironically enough, i just got an automated phone poll from wbz tv asking me : 1. how i felt about the loss, 2. if grady should have left pedro in, 3. do i think we have bad luck in post season games 4. should grady little stay the manager 5. if i'll support the team again next year. (very upset, no, yes, no, yes) they too must have heard my whimpering in my office this morning.

posted by jerseygirl at 01:46 PM on October 17

Well I definitely won't be taking time off work now. I was hoping for a Cubs v Red Sox final. Seems to me, as an ignorant Brit, that the Yankees are like the Man Utd of the baseball world. Hence, with what little enthusiasm I can muster I'll be rooting for the Marlins.

posted by squealy at 01:53 PM on October 17

lilnemo, I believe his contract is up, so it's actually a matter of not rehiring him rather than firing him per se. (That's what jerseygirl meant by "technically does not have a job.") Although the signers of this petition don't seem to draw such distinctions...

posted by staggernation at 02:08 PM on October 17

lilnemo: Grady has no contract - it's up for renewal - I suspect you'll hear about his firing when you hear who their next manager is. Guess it makes sense to wait and see who's available. This would've been so much easier to take if the Yanks had beat us outright, but they didn't. Once more a Red Sox team shoots itself in the foot just as the marathon is ending.

posted by kokaku at 02:08 PM on October 17

Yankees are like the Man Utd of the baseball world You got it. They even have a marketing agreement with each other. Now squealy, who's the Sox of the EPL or whatever so I can have another reason to punch myself in the crotch.

posted by yerfatma at 02:17 PM on October 17

Oh you folks won't be happy until the public beheading... Which I hear is tentatively scheduled for mid-November as to not interfere with seasonal shopping.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 02:18 PM on October 17

I keep checking the sportswire... and amazingly Grady isn't fired yet. How long do they intend to wait? Good Lord, lilnemo ... I think you had written a haiku. For two games they whiffed Wakefield's knuckler wafted, but Boone straightened it out. I hear it, Boston Your every breath repeats it Grady Little sucks.

posted by wfrazerjr at 02:19 PM on October 17

MLB has a Playoffs news blackout, so either way I don't think you'll see any stories until after the Yanks win their 27th or the Marlins go home with No. 2. As a (born in Jersey) Yankees fan, I will only say that when the score got tied at 5 I was screaming "It's a whole new ballgame" directly in my wife's face but fortunately she is very loving and simply smiled at me.

posted by billsaysthis at 02:28 PM on October 17

Red Sox Premiership team? Well they've won nothing in living memory, and continually put their long-suffering fans through the heartache of raised hopes and eventual disappointments. They gotta be Birmingham City. ;-)

posted by squealy at 02:29 PM on October 17

Thats creepy, on the EPL Fantasy League setup I selected Birmingham City on a whim.
I think I may need to see a doctor.

posted by lilnemo at 02:33 PM on October 17

Ain't no cure for these Blues, lilnemo.

posted by squealy at 02:42 PM on October 17

Screw that 'nemo: You know we can turn them around. Someone point me at an online jersey store: if Birmingham's looks halfway decent, sign me up. You can't get drama like this anywhere but the opera. And I don't like the opera.

posted by yerfatma at 02:56 PM on October 17

Kevin Millar's thoughts on last night. Tip your cap I love baseball but I hate the phrase tip your cap. It's like working with someone who overuses the word paradigm. After a while you know they're just using it because there's nothing else to really say.

posted by YukonGold at 03:10 PM on October 17

I don't like the phrase either. So every time someone says it, I mentally mangle the phrase so that instead I hear...
Cap your tip
Which is funnier.
Don't look at me like that!

posted by lilnemo at 03:22 PM on October 17

Anyone who still likes Grady can have him.

posted by yerfatma at 04:06 PM on October 17

and we all used to think Mendoza was the embedded Yankee.

posted by jerseygirl at 04:12 PM on October 17

Anyone who still likes Grady can have him. Haha. Too funny. I've always been easy on managers. Its easy to sit on a couch and use hindsight to manage. But I can't remember anytime when it was so clearly the manager who cost his team a trip to the World Series. He just gave it all away. And we watched him do it.

posted by justgary at 04:32 PM on October 17

Here's the Milwaukee area chiming in. I didn't catch the whole game: I was at a friend's for dinner, and got home and turned on the radio at the top of the 8th inning. I said this in MeFi: I'm a Brewers fan, but every year I need to find a team to root for in the playoffs, so I follow the Yankees. That's no foolproof recipe for a championship. Folks, the Yankees look very beatable right now. The ALCS win was very much a gift, and if anything, I bet they're tired. Florida, on the other hand, is probably still giddy about their historically defiant comeback. If the Yankees are going to win, it'll be quickly, but if the Marlins can stay alive, they could take it in 7 games. But I really did want to see a Cubs-BoSox series. God that would have been cool.

posted by rocketman at 04:36 PM on October 17

Regarding Mr. Little: I heard the top half of the eighth, and with it, John and Joe's recap of the disaster the game had been for the Yankees. Then in the bottom half, Pedro started to slip, and I agree: the dude needed to come out of the game. Sure, it's easy for us fans to manage from home, but come on. So obvious. So frickin' obvious. Two innings from the bullpen. Surely Grady figured he could have gotten two innings from his bullpen. Hell, he got a solid ninth and tenth from his bullpen. Such idiocy.

posted by rocketman at 04:39 PM on October 17

Hell, he got a solid ninth and tenth from his bullpen. Such idiocy Exactly. The yankees finally got to an exhausted Pedro. Then nothing off the bullpen until they got an exhausted Wakefield. Inexcusable.

posted by justgary at 04:46 PM on October 17

I'm a Brewers fan, but every year I need to find a team to root for in the playoffs, so I follow the Yankees. That's no foolproof recipe for a championship Uhm, Rocketman, you need to read The Rules For Being a Sportsfan. No likes a sports bigamist or a bandwagon jumper and definitely not a disloylal bandwagon jumping sports bigamist.

posted by Mike McD at 05:34 PM on October 17

I didn't get a sense that Wakefield was exhausted. I just think a knuckleballer is susceptible to the occasional batting practice pitch.

posted by rcade at 06:01 PM on October 17

Did you all get your whinning and complaining out of your system? Because here comes the truth, the Yankees took advantage of what the red sox gave them, and the Sox blew their opportunity to break the game wide open in the 4th with two guys on and no one out. To the putz who said the Yankees win with other team's talent, funny thing is, the Yankees have more homegrown players then the Red Sox do, by far. Blame Grady if you want to, but the truth of the matter is Pedro was still throwing 90 + mile an hour fastballs in the 8th, he jammed Posada, and Jorge fought off the pitch. If Embree had given up the runs you'd be bitching that Grady pulled Pedro too soon. This was a good win, but now it's on to the series and another world championship.

posted by jbou at 09:20 PM on October 17

Who cares if the Yankees got their players from the farm or free agency? Either way they built the team in ways the league rules allow. If you say that the Yankees have more income, and therefore a bigger budget, I would suggest that's because the Yankee fans (directly or indirectly) are willing to pay more for the product. You can't tell me that with only one team in all of New England there aren't just as many potential Red Sox fans since the Yankees have to split their market with the Mets (and the Phillies are only 90 miles away, closer than any other team is to the Sox as well).

posted by billsaysthis at 10:00 PM on October 17

I didn't get a sense that Wakefield was exhausted. The game the night before wakefield tried throwing and gave it a no-go. One night's rest doesn't change an arm all that much. I just think a knuckleballer is susceptible to the occasional batting practice pitch. Yep. That's what I said in my first post in this thread. Perhaps I shouldn't have said wakefield was exhausted, but he certainly wasn't well rested. Add that to the occasional 'batting practice pitch' and you're playing with fire. Long relief? Great. Can't allow a homerun? Not so great. Regardless, to bring wakefield in or not can be argued. Leaving pedro in or not can't. We should have never gotten to the second situation. Blame Grady if you want to, but the truth of the matter is Pedro was still throwing 90 + mile an hour fastballs in the 8th, he jammed Posada, and Jorge fought off the pitch. If Embree had given up the runs you'd be bitching that Grady pulled Pedro too soon. Everyone (not just sox fans) in the baseball world thinks Pedro was left in too long. Even some of the yankees think he was left in too long (I'll give you the link if you want me to), but you think it was a good decision? Hmm, who should I believe. Everyone else or the guy who said it would be Petite and Clemens and lights out. Petite got rocked, clemens didn't make it out of the 4th inning. Guess you were wrong, huh? Why can't you just say you were given the game? Is it really that hard? This was a good win, but now it's on to the series and another world championship. Typical yankee fan. And you wonder why so many people hate the yankees? I've enjoyed the other yankee fans at sportsfilter. They make for good discussion and debate. It's nice to have a place where debate can be separated from blind fan following. Hopefully you'll be the exception.

posted by justgary at 10:32 PM on October 17

typical. I often wonder how the Yankee fans as a whole feel about each other. There seems to be 2 distinct groups, one definitely giving the other a bad name.

posted by jerseygirl at 11:18 PM on October 17

So the Sox lost because Grady left Pedro in too long, and Wakefield was tired? Mussina pitched on little rest and shutdown the Sox, Wells gave up the HR to Ortiz on little rest, if the Yankees had lost five to four we wouldn't be crying because Torre brought Wells in to pitch to Ortiz. Red Sox fans are such babies, you lost, deal with it, and stop your crying. it's too bad you all root for the biggest tease in baseball, if you don't like suffering stop caring about the Sox, but you all chose to suffer so don't get mad at Yankee fans for talking shit because you all talk much shit when the Yankees slip up. The students at Umass had a huge party the year the Yanks lost to the Diamondbacks, hell they rioted, that's right folks I live in the enemy's territory, MA, and I enjoy every red sox's loss a little more because I get to see the suffering fans close up and personal. BTW , I said it was going to be Wells and pettite and lights out, and I admitted I was wrong after game six, but Sox fans never admitt anything they just cry cry cry.

posted by jbou at 12:25 AM on October 18

Red Sox fans are such babies, you lost, deal with it, and stop your crying. We're discussing why the redsox lost. That's not whining. That's the purpose of this website. What part of that don't you understand? 99 percent of the population thinks the game was lost on the decision to leave pedro in. Its not just redsox fans crying as you seem to think. Sports Writers, commentators, explayers, current players. You, with all your baseball knowledge (that's sarcasm--because I think you got zero) can believe otherwise if you wish. if you don't like suffering stop caring about the Sox, That's the difference between me and you. I don't choose my team based on their winning percentage. I'll take crying with redsox fans over being an ass with yankee fans the likes of you anyday. but you all chose to suffer so don't get mad at Yankee fans for talking shit because you all talk much shit when the Yankees slip up. Where? On this board? Where is the trash talk? From me? Where? The students at Umass had a huge party the year the Yanks lost to the Diamondbacks, And we care because? I wasn't there. You're blaming the redsox fans here for that? Hey, I'm sure there are a lot of redsox fans who are assholes. Every team has them. But I haven't seen them here. Yankee assholes on the other hand... but Sox fans never admitt anything they just cry cry cry. Where? When? You say a lot of crap without backing it up. I enjoy every red sox's loss a little more because I get to see the suffering fans close up and personal. That says it all right there. I personally don't care if the yankees win or lose. I just want the sox to win. Really, I know you're trolling. I should have just ignored your ignorant comments the first time. I won't be making that mistake again. You really need to grow up. (good luck in the series. I'd hate for them to lose and then you'd have to pick a new team. that would break my freakin' heart)

posted by justgary at 12:57 AM on October 18

Dude, when she asked you how old you were, you'd have been better off saying you were fourteen or something. Seriously.

posted by taupe at 03:45 AM on October 18

jbou, my special friend, Pedro's batting average against about 100 or so pitches is like .320. Any fucking yutz with a grade school education (and let's be honest: Grady probably makes it into that group), should be aware of that and yank him. Embree might have given up the runs, but I would have liked to find out. The Sox leaving those runners on/ Mussina getting them out was enormous and I said so at the time. Same thing for the Sox not scoring when they got Nomar and Manny on. You're misunderstanding what people mean by the Sox "giving" the Yankees the game. It's not that the Yankees didn't battle back, it's that our general purposely left our defenses a shambles when it counted most. As for the babies comments, I'm going to be an ass and double-post my MetaFilter comment because I want your response to this: I have no idea what a twenty-seventh World Series title for your local nine will do for you personally. Hopefully it'll be fun. The lack of one for us will do us no harm. If it makes us a little more sensitive to the disappointments of others each time we get shit on, we'll be better people for it. What does it do for you? If it makes you act like you are here, I don't understand why.

posted by yerfatma at 08:11 AM on October 18

Four baseball fans, each from a major league city, are climbing a mountain. On the way to the top each is arguing about how loyal they are to their team and what they would do for their team. As the climb progresses, the odds increase. Upon reaching the top, the Cubs fan shouts, "This is for the Cubs," and hurls himself off the top. Next, the Braves fan yells, "I love Atlanta, this is for the Braves," and hurls himself off the mountain. Suddenly, the Red Sox fan yells, "This is for everyone," and pushes the Yankees fan off.

posted by jerseygirl at 09:55 AM on October 18

This was a good win, but now it's on to the series and another world championship. Typical yankee fan. And you wonder why so many people hate the yankees? People hate the Yankee fans because Yankee fans can point to 26 championships and being optimistic? Are you suggesting that you wouldn't be optimistic if the Sox had won game 7? I often wonder how the Yankee fans as a whole feel about each other. There seems to be 2 distinct groups, one definitely giving the other a bad name Like any reasonably large group of humans, there are some whose behavior is poor. There aren't two groups, there are just some fans who are boors, outliers on the curve as it were. jbou is one of those. GO YANKEES!

posted by billsaysthis at 11:31 AM on October 18

People hate the Yankee fans because Yankee fans can point to 26 championships and being optimistic? hey wait up now. there's a difference between being optimistic and excited about your team getting there and being opprobrious about it. i'll let you decide where you think jbou was residing.

posted by jerseygirl at 01:55 PM on October 18

You can't tell me that with only one team in all of New England there aren't just as many potential Red Sox fans since the Yankees have to split their market with the Mets Yes, I can tell you that "there aren't just as many potential Red Sox fans" because there aren't as many potential Red Sox fans. Next time you make an argument check your facts first. From the latest census. 20,196,649 potential Yankees fans, 5,667,225 potential Red Sox fans. And that, BTW, was a very obvious error. With 20.2 million people, or almost 1/10 of the entire US population, the New York metropolitan area dwarfs the next closest market. And it's not the stadium ticket sales that make the Yankees so profitable. It's their one of a kind TV deal where they make the dollars and the value of that TV deal is driven strictly by the size of the New York area population.

posted by Mike McD at 02:03 PM on October 18

People hate the Yankee fans because Yankee fans can point to 26 championships and being optimistic? Are you suggesting that you wouldn't be optimistic if the Sox had won game 7? Oh please bill. I have no problem with being optimistic. I have no problem with you saying 'go yankees' or being excited about this world series. Saying the following: now it's on to the series and another world championship. is not optimistic. Its a sense of entitlement. Saying 'I think we're going to take the series' is optimistic. 'I think we've got the better team' is optimistic.' 'Now on to another world championship' is not. Surely you can see the difference. One, on a board with fans of other teams, is inflamatory (and leads to this crap which I'm partly responsible for participating in). On a yankee board? Fine. I simply don't see the purpose of coming onto a thread that's discussing the reasons behind a game's outcome to say 'it was a great victory now on to another world championship'. There are plenty of other places that would love to hear that type of rhetoric. But that's just my opinion. Jbou will continue being jbou. I'll just have to ignore him. I've really said too much in this thread already. Hopefully its a good series ;) And jerseygirl, thanks for teaching me the word opprobrious.

posted by justgary at 02:15 PM on October 18

To the putz who said the Yankees win with other team's talent, funny thing is, the Yankees have more homegrown players then the Red Sox do, by far. Nice to open with insults. Are you this unpleasant in person? Anyway, I'm not a Sox fan. I wasn't comparing the Yankees with the Sox. It's just damn annoying to me as an Orioles fan to see the best player from the Orioles roster playing for the Yankees and saving the game for them. Furthermore, not that it's relevant to my comment, but is jbou even correct? Do the Yankees' really have more homegrown players? Can someone help me with this? Off the top of my head it seems like quite a few of the Yankees' key players were free agents: Clemens, Wells, Mussina, Matsui, and Giambi. Obviously Manny was a key free agent pickup for the Sox, what about the others?

posted by Mike McD at 02:27 PM on October 18

If Embree had given up the runs you'd be bitching that Grady pulled Pedro too soon. Not me. I applauded Torre for having the guts to pull Clemens early when he was showing signs of being gassed. The difference in this series, which may be the best I have ever watched, was that Little stayed with his sentimental favorite -- long beyond all reason -- and Torre threw sentiment out the window. It could have been Rocket's last pitch as a pro, but that didn't stop Torre from having a quick hook. If you say that the Yankees have more income, and therefore a bigger budget, I would suggest that's because the Yankee fans (directly or indirectly) are willing to pay more for the product. Yankee fans have nothing to do with the biggest reason for the team's ridiculous financial advantage -- they're in a giant television market. I wish there were more Yankee fans who acknowledged that the team's payroll has some impact on their success. Lop $50 million off the payroll and in three years Torre is fired, there's no pitchers to replace Clemens and Mussina, and the Yanks are struggling to fill holes like everyone else.

posted by rcade at 03:29 PM on October 18

Honestly? The Yankees do have more homegrown. Jeter, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Soriano, Johnson, Williams off the top of my head, which pretty much accounts for the most of the starting lineup. Undoubtedly, it's impressive. Of course, they had a lot of time to feed, nourish and grow their farm system in the entirety of the 80s and first half of the 90s when the Yankees were doing a whole lot of nothing and had Deion Sanders in the outfield. Duquette raped and pillaged the Red Sox farm system during his regime, and that's the truth of it. It's not an excuse, it's not whining, it's fact. Off the top of my head, Nomar, Trot, Fossum and Merloni are the guys out of the Red Sox farm system. Hillenbrand also. The farm system looks decent. You saw Arroyo in the Playoffs. We also have Youkilis (referred to by Beane in Moneyball as the "Greek God of Walks") and an appealing catcher, Shoppach. I think most of our new guys (Mueller, Walker, Millar, Ortiz) were free agent pickups or claims off season. Trying to account for the rest of the team, besides Manny... Pedro came out of Montreal on a trade for Carl Pavano (now with the Marlins) and Tony Armas Jr (on DL with Montreal). Lowe and Varitek were swapped in a steal of deal in 97 for Healthcliff Slocum (yeah, i know. "Who is Heathcliff Slocum?"), Mirabelli was the result of a trade with Texas for Duchscherer (now with the A's) when Varitek went down with a shoulder injury in 2001. Damon was a free agent pickup, as was Burkett. Kim, Williamson, Suppan, Embree and (I think) Timlin were trades.

posted by jerseygirl at 03:56 PM on October 18

Mike McD: I'm not sure you're including enough of the New england population, which would be all Red Sox territory; even, apparently, parts of northern New York State. Plus you need to divide the NY population by two to account for the Mets. there's a difference between being optimistic and excited about your team getting there and being opprobrious about it. To me, you overreacted to the statement, though I'm not going to try and read reason into your words. Again, I would point out that some fans are more aggressive in their language (and interpretation thereof) than others but hardly worth blowing up over them. Or baseball/sports in general. Yankee fans have nothing to do with the biggest reason for the team's ridiculous financial advantage -- they're in a giant television market. Which is precisely what I meant by indirect. And if the fans didn't watch (ratings), the TV contract would be much lower. Further, Steinbrenner was willing to spend his own money early in his ownership period to get free agents and re-establish the winning--the team's record was abysmal from the mid-'60s until 1975/76, wasn't it?--and the Sox ownership was not.

posted by billsaysthis at 04:07 PM on October 18

Bill -- If you're dividing the NY population by two to account for the Mets, then you need to give all the New Englanders within range of New York City television to the Yankees. Crossing the border into Connecticut does not turn a New Yorker into a Red Sox fan.

posted by Bryant at 04:17 PM on October 18

Plus you need to divide the NY population by two to account for the Mets. Billsaysthis, New York is definitely not split 50/50 Yankees/Mets. If I had to guess, in recent years I'd say it's closer to 75/25. And even Mets fans are going to tune in Yankees games sometimes. If you look at those census numbers I used the widest geographical area for the Boston figure, which if anything is too high. For example, I doubt the TV/cable networks in upstate NY are carrying Sox games which is the only case that would generate incremental revenue for the Sox. I really don't care about baseball and I don't feel like debating this anymore but your argument that the Sox have as many potential fans who could increase their TV revenue as the Yankees is blatantly wrong.

posted by Mike McD at 04:28 PM on October 18

you're way off bill.

posted by jerseygirl at 04:34 PM on October 18

The Sox farm system has come a long way since the day after Duquette was fired. Of course, it had no where to go but up. Unfortuantely, a good deal of the young pitching talent got moved, notably to Cincy and San Diego. And if Montreal had kept Pavano, 4/5 of their starting rotation could have been ex-Sox (Seung Song, Tomo Okha, Pavano and someone else whose name escapes me). The weirdest part of the little homegrown talent the Sox have is that one of them (Trot) pre-dates the Duquette Dynasty.

posted by yerfatma at 07:34 PM on October 18

A Brief Treatise on the Superiority Of Yankee Fans to All Others By ALLEN BARRA Published: October 19, 2003 n his 1974 book on drugs and consciousness, "The Natural Mind," Dr. Andrew Weil described two types of paranoia: one sees a hostile pattern in random events; the other, faced with the same events, feels that "the universe is a conspiracy organized for their own benefit." The second defines New York Yankee fans; the first fits all other baseball fans. In Game 6 of the National League Championship series, the Chicago Cubs were leading 3-1 in the eighth inning. The Florida Marlins' Luis Castillo lofted a fly into Wrigley Field's left-field stands. Cubs outfielder Moises Alou reached for the ball, but it was knocked away by a ball-hungry Cubs fan. Castillo then drew a walk, opening the floodgates for an 8-3 Florida victory. The Cubs might have lost the game anyway, but that's irrelevant. What matters is that the incident seemed to create a kind of psychic paralysis in the Cubs and their fans, after which nothing went right. Commentators have sympathized with the offending fan. "You'd have reached for the ball, too," they say. But Yankee fans only smile. They know when to touch the ball, and when not to. In the 1996 championship series against the Baltimore Orioles, with the Yankees down 4-3 in the eighth inning, Derek Jeter lofted a fly ball toward the right field fence at Yankee Stadium. Orioles outfielder Tony Tarasco reached up and watched the ball drop into the hands of a 12-year-old Yankees fan, Jeffrey Maier. Without the interference, Jeter's fly might have been an out or a double. But the umpire ruled it a homer, and the Yankees won the game in the 11th inning. In the sixth inning of Game 1 of the 2000 World Series with two outs, the Mets' Todd Zeile sent a drive toward the short left-field corner of Yankee Stadium. The ball seemed destined for the seats, but struck the top of the padded wall and bounced back onto the field. Mets fans believed it was a home run; Yankee fans knew better. The Mets' Timo Perez, who was on first base, also thought it was a home run and loped toward second base, but the Yankees' left fielder, David Justice, fired to Jeter, who threw to catcher Jorge Posada, who tagged out Perez at home. The Mets never recovered, and the Yankees won the Series in five games. The play took place, however, only because a Yankee fan named Jack Nelson, seated directly behind where Zeile's ball struck the fence, didn't reached out and snag it. Nelson, as he later told reporters, knew not to interfere with the ball. In the eighth inning of Thursday night's game, with the Boston Red Sox leading 5-3, Hideki Matsui smashed a two-out double down the right field line, putting the tying runs at second and third. The Yankees then tied the score on Posada's bloop single to center. A replay revealed that Matsui's shot was touched by a fan as it sped past, making it a ground-rule double and holding Bernie Williams at third base. Some see this as evidence that even Yankee fans make mistakes. Not necessarily. Every Yankee fan knew Williams had been slowed by his knee operation earlier in the year. No one wanted him to be thrown out at home and spoil the rally. Everyone knew that Posada would follow with a wounded-duck blooper on a 2-2 count off baseball's best pitcher, Pedro Martinez. Yankee fans know.

posted by jbou at 08:23 PM on October 18

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