04/19/24
March 04, 2011
The Toll of Fighting on Hockey Enforcers: In a development that may influence discussion and debate regarding the future of fighting in hockey, researchers have found that deceased NHL enforcer Bob Probert's brain exhibits the same condition (chronic traumatic encephalopathy) that has afflicted former NFL players.
The people who claim "Fighting is part of hockey" are lunkheads who probably watch NASCAR only for the wrecks.
Spoken from an informed position, I'm sure. What percentage of NHL players in a recent survey felt that the league should ban fighting? I'll give you a short time to look it up.
posted by tahoemoj at 05:53 PM on March 04, 2011
Are you so sure that the fighting causes his condition, and not the drugs and booze he, to put it lightly, had an affinity for? Because there seems to be a lot of ex-players leading successful, healthy lives post-NHL that were fighters in their playing days that weren't alcoholic cokeheads. Just sayin...
posted by MeatSaber at 06:26 PM on March 04, 2011
What percentage of NHL players in a recent survey felt that the league should ban fighting?
Don't really care. It's my opinion. And if they love that part of the game so much, then why should anyone care if they get brain damage because of it?
Spoken from an informed position, I'm sure.
Sorry Bettman. Didn't know I had to site sources and use footnotes to give a opinion.
posted by dyams at 07:29 PM on March 04, 2011
The idea fighting ever became such a accepted part of the sport, and something still accepted and almost encouraged to this day, is ridiculous. Practically every other sport does everything it can to avoid fighting, as well as penalizing those involved. Hockey (at least in North America; I don't know about other countries) seems to almost need fighting to survive.
Fighting has always been in hockey, dude. It wasn't invented in the 70s in Philadelphia. Not that it means it will be there forever, but your original assertion is wrong and I get the general impression you don't quite get why there is any fighting in the first place.
But the point about concussions is valid. Who's to say the NHL is any better than the NFL? I guess not a lot of NHL players commit suicide after their careers are over, but that's pretty anecdotal. I don't really know. The worrying thing is that the trend in the NHL is clearly going towards more concussions, not less. Probert played in a decidedly slower league.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:32 PM on March 04, 2011
The people who claim "Fighting is part of hockey" are lunkheads who probably watch NASCAR only for the wrecks.
You don't have to cite anything. You're welcome to make stupid claims with no basis.
posted by wfrazerjr at 08:51 PM on March 04, 2011
You're welcome to make stupid claims with no basis.
I knew you would understand.
In the meantime, get all your "." responses ready for posts when your hockey heroes die at young ages with fucked-up brains.
posted by dyams at 08:57 PM on March 04, 2011
The article does note that it's not just fighting necessarily, but other concussions as well that might be causing this, so I think the focus specifically on fighting is a little off base without looking at concussions more generally (notwithstanding the fact that the article and my link summary might suggest otherwise). I am sure Probert doled out and took a lot of hits (including hits to the head or that resulted in his head meeting a hard object -- ice, boards, glass, other player's body) in addition to his 200+ fights.
To Meat Saber's point, I am not aware of any medical literature or study that suggests that this particular condition (CTE) can be caused by drugs or alcohol. Rather, I believe it is most closely tied to repeated head trauma. Perhaps there is some basis for the argument that his drinking and booze exacerbated the brain damage, but who knows (at least I certainly do not). Those factors possibly contributed to him suffering a fatal heart attack at an early age (as there is a correlation between alcohol and drug abuse and heart problems), but I doubt there is much linkage to this specific brain condition.
posted by holden at 09:05 PM on March 04, 2011
Didn't know I had to site sources and use footnotes to give a opinion.
You didn't state an opinion; you insulted a large percentage of the hockey playing and viewing community. Just thought I'd give you a chance to figure out on your own how fucking stupid what you said was.
posted by tahoemoj at 09:29 PM on March 04, 2011
Well, I actually came back to edit that to be a wee bit more tactful, but too late.
posted by tahoemoj at 09:42 PM on March 04, 2011
This is purely speculation, but it is possible that Probert was under the influence of alcohol and/or cocaine while he was playing (not too much of a stretch given his DUI history). If so, said influence could mask symptoms of a head injury, or make an injury appear to be lesser than it actually was. Repeated use could make the brain more susceptible to serious injury. The alcohol and drugs could cause the indications seen in brain. None of us knows. But to condemn fighting based on one man's brain is just a plain knee-jerk reaction. You can't hold up his fighting as the reason for his brain damage, and just sweep his substance abuse under the rug...
posted by MeatSaber at 09:44 PM on March 04, 2011
In the meantime, get all your "." responses ready for posts when your hockey heroes die at young ages with fucked-up brains.
Quick note: the "hockey heroes" I have aren't the ones that made it to the league as fighters. In fact, there are very few players who have that as a primary role that play long enough to become anyone's "heroes".
Also, I find it interesting that you bemoan fighting in hockey because of the damage it might do to players, but you have no problem supporting a 48 year old man participating in mixed martial arts.
I would have to believe that a gentleman approaching 50 participating in a multiple-round contest where the primary goal it to render the opponent unconscious through blows to the head would be FAR more dangerous than two healthy young men pushing/shoving and throwing maybe 10 punches (of which 2 or 3 might land, and probably on the shoulders/helmet) for about 25 seconds.
But hey, to each their own.
posted by grum@work at 09:54 PM on March 04, 2011
Also, I find it interesting that you bemoan fighting in hockey because of the damage it might do to players, but you have no problem supporting a 48 year old man participating in mixed martial arts.
Fighting in a sport that is fighting doesn't bother me. I also don't mind competitors punching each other in boxing. It's sort of what the sport involves. But then again, I'm probably not speaking from an informed position, and I should probably seek out what percentage of boxers or MMA competitors support fighting in their sport.
And my original point wasn't really to do with the damage, but with how strange it is that fighting is accepted in hockey, but not in other contact sports. Fights in other team sports often lead to suspensions, but not in North American hockey. It's part of hockey, but not, for example, in Olympic hockey.
All I'm saying is it's a bit weird if you just think about it in relation to other team games. All the others, pretty much without exception, suspend or ban players for fighting. North American hockey embraces it.
posted by dyams at 10:13 PM on March 04, 2011
Hockey (at least in North America; I don't know about other countries) seems to almost need fighting to survive.
Bettman seems to think so. There was a poll in the Globe and Mail, I think, not too long ago, and anecdotal evidence backs it up, that most Canadians would be happy to see fighting removed from the game.
posted by fabulon7 at 03:49 PM on March 05, 2011
I think most of us agree that the number of concussions among NHL players s increasing. There may be 3 reasons for this: First, "he had his bell rung" is being replaced by "grade 1 or grade 2 concussion". This is a good thing, in that players will be discouraged from attempting to come back too quickly after a head injury. Second, the speed of the game has resulted in harder hits. Here is something that is really no one's fault, but does need some action other than slowing down the game to mitigate the problem. Third, equipment has both exacerbated the problem and failed to provide any help. Harder elbow and shoulder pads tend to cause more damage when used as a weapon, accidentally or intentionally, and the helmet provides no real protection against the sudden acceleration or deceleration of the head causing the brain to impact the interior of the skull.
This brings us to the role of fighting. It has always been an understanding in the league that one who makes a questionable hit, penalized or not, intentional or not, would be subject to immediate retribution in the form of a fight. I can offer no evidence to back up this claim, but at one time this practice might actually have reduced the number of questionable hits, and more importantly, the number of questionable hitters. Fighting no longer does this. Occasionally an alleged perpetrator will suffer some real damage, but most of the time, the 5 minutes in the box is all he gets. Thus, fighting does nothing but wear out a couple of players and linesmen.
So where is the solution? Some incentive to the equipment manufacturers to improve the helmet. Softening up the elbow and shoulder protection while still maintaining its effectiveness will also help. The big thing will be changes in the rules. Completely outlaw any hit above the shoulders, making some allowance for players who are falling when hit or are ducking into a hit. Include suspensions, short ones for 1st time offenders, longer and longer for repeaters. Bring back the hip check by not being so quick to call tripping unless a leg is obviously extended. There might be some increase in leg injuries, but a corresponding decrease in head injuries would more than make up for this. After all, while a leg injury might cause a premature end to a career, a head injury can cause a premature end to a life.
posted by Howard_T at 04:25 PM on March 05, 2011
The idea fighting ever became such a accepted part of the sport, and something still accepted and almost encouraged to this day, is ridiculous. Practically every other sport does everything it can to avoid fighting, as well as penalizing those involved. Hockey (at least in North America; I don't know about other countries) seems to almost need fighting to survive. It's pathetic how players in youth leagues progress from not being able to have contact, to being able to check, to "finally" being able to fight.
The people who claim "Fighting is part of hockey" are lunkheads who probably watch NASCAR only for the wrecks.