July 16, 2006

Obviously, this is an IMO, but this FPP seems mean spirited and, furthermore, seems to break the guidelines. While it has had 40+ comments, I don't think that excuses it.

posted by Joey Michaels at 12:48 AM on July 16, 2006

The Locker Room is an area to discuss topics specifically about the site: bugs, the quality of front page links, feature suggestions, and fantasy leagues our members participate in. (Don’t discuss etiquette issues here—if you have a complaint about a member’s conduct, contact us.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 06:18 AM on July 16, 2006

Ying Yang: The Locker Room is an area to discuss topics specifically about the site: bugs, the quality of front page links, feature suggestions, and fantasy leagues our members participate in. (Don’t discuss etiquette issues here—if you have a complaint about a member’s conduct, contact us. On topic. Abstain or have at it.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:57 AM on July 16, 2006

I'm at the point (and the hiatus did nothing to change this, apparently) where I just assume I'll be doing some hall-monitor work when I open SpoFi. I could stop, but threads like the one Joey mentioned don't help with the profile of this place, and it isn't written down anywhere that posts like that are frowned upon*. There was a good discussion to be had, but when the FPP was worded so personally and so opinionatedly, nothing good can come out of it. We've seen this a lot. I'd love to not think like this, but I can't sit around and watch people drop semi-coherent turd after semi-coherent turd on the front page without understanding that this place is (or could be) better than that for everyone, no matter what they like or what they believe. I understand the guidelines are being rewritten. I'd love it if there was some kind of caveat indicating first-person opinions are for inside the threads, not on the front page. It just makes for a better discussion. [*...or maybe they're not frowned upon, and I'm just missing something vital about the philosophy of SpoFi? If that's the case, let me know and I'll stop doing such thread-coppery immediately, and never kvetch about this again.]

posted by chicobangs at 03:32 PM on July 16, 2006

Plus, it would help if the poster wasn't a complete idiot.

posted by bperk at 05:52 PM on July 16, 2006

This FPP is is using a minor (at best) story as an excuse to editorialize. Bad sportsmanship, bad SpoFi FPP. Yes, all true. I'm out of town watching the sox lose to the A's, and missed it like manny missing a hold sign at second base while scanning the front page. My apology.

posted by justgary at 06:24 PM on July 16, 2006

No wonder the column I submitted hasn't been posted as of yet Back tomorrow skydivedad, and I'll get it up if no one else does. Sorry 'bout that.

posted by justgary at 08:48 PM on July 16, 2006

they can trot out the "I didn't know" excuse for so very many different kinds of asshattery. Editorializing in a FPP is one such example. Agreed, and that needs to change. I'll try to get 'guidelines plus' up by this weekend.

posted by justgary at 09:05 PM on July 16, 2006

I hate doing call outs (and have never done one before here or at MeFi) but front page editorializing (be it about Bonds or Wie) just pisses me off. Furthermore, I figure one more voice posting in the thread "this FPP sucks" isn't going to do anything but stir things up. Anyhow, sorry to be a pain. I dig SpoFi and don't want to see it pissed on. I will email next time.

posted by Joey Michaels at 07:22 AM on July 17, 2006

sorry to be a pain I don't see it that way. I think the community has grown large enough that some sort of self-policing (like chico described) has to happen. I don't know where else to discuss it.

posted by yerfatma at 09:05 AM on July 17, 2006

There was this guy once who had a website called "Jerque du Jour", where he would post photos of asshat driving he witnessed during his daily commute. Then his commute changed and the site went away. Damn shame, that...

posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:39 AM on July 17, 2006

How would people feel about a two-step process for front page posts, where a second person (with some seniority here) has to promote a post and can have a crack at editing it to add links, improve the writing, or the like? Gary and I occasionally do this with posts like the Wie post, when the topic's good but the user did a weak (or shrill) job presenting it.

posted by rcade at 12:14 PM on July 17, 2006

That'd definitely be a step-up rcade. We can help you guys, I think. You both should be able to enjoy family gatherings and watching your favorite baseball team play like crap at Fenway in peace, and not have to worry about SpoFi.

posted by jerseygirl at 12:19 PM on July 17, 2006

I like the idea, and I think that smithers' suggestion is a good direction to investigate. To keep the moderation focus where it's needed, a user's posts are no longer moderated once he or she has successfully made a certain number. (smithers suggests 1, I personally would bump that up to 2 or 3.) Of course I would be willing to help out with the pre-post moderation process.

posted by DrJohnEvans at 01:01 PM on July 17, 2006

an arbitrary, unstated number I vote 17. And volunteer my services, limited as they are, to the Pantheon now and forever. Strength and honor!

posted by The_Black_Hand at 02:19 PM on July 17, 2006

Determined procrastination?

posted by garfield at 03:04 PM on July 17, 2006

I vote 17. I knew posting that bit about saturday was an excellent idea. As for the FPP editing idea, I agree with both DJE and smithers that once a user reaches a certain number of posts, they shouldn't have to have them edited (unless they are a total idiot, but I would think they'd be banned by then).

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 04:31 PM on July 17, 2006

This is a tremendous idea. I concur. But who decides who these "editors" are? I would say someone with a member number 1041 or lower. Actually, I think DJE would be a good editor, and chicobangs too.

posted by MrFrisby at 06:50 PM on July 17, 2006

Oh it has to be "Big Boy SpoFi Posting Priviledges" huh? I see how it is.

posted by jerseygirl at 07:46 PM on July 17, 2006

I figured "Big Boy" was a reference to the restaurant's Kids Club, in which membership provided you the keys to breaking secret code messages... you know, like having the secret code to good posts... yep, that's the first thing I thought of...

posted by BullpenPro at 08:25 PM on July 17, 2006

But who decides who these "editors" are? I would say someone with a member number 1041 or lower. I say that the Pantheon decides since user numbers don't neccesarily mean much. I can also think of a few users who would make fine editors, but aren't neccesarily the first 1k or so to join SpoFi.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 08:46 PM on July 17, 2006

Then after that, I was going to say you were anti-sock puppet, and blindly accuse you of ripping the eye-buttons out of said sock puppets. Can't you see? If we don't act now they'll take over the world!

posted by lilnemo at 09:20 PM on July 17, 2006

I am not sure what I think about the proposal, but I trust rcade (et al) to make the right decisions. Personally I also think a female member would be a good choice for an editor to help balance the boys club. I also would like to propose a flagging system like MetaFilter has to help alert admins of problem users or posts. BTW, I am not sure I am worthy of an editors role, but I do have some time on my hands as I am still under employed (somewhat one purpose). I do start work at a cool coffee shop in town next month and it has wifi :) So, IF I can help, let me know. But I'll want my locker room interview retuned as payment!

posted by scully at 09:21 PM on July 17, 2006

In the strictest sense, the Pantheon is Rogers (rcade), Gary (justgary) and Kirk (kirkaracha), who are the three people with actual administrative control over Spofi (ability to edit/delete posts, ban users, etc). In an actual thread-police sense, most of the visible work is done by Gary and Rogers. (Gary described the breakdown of labor in a previous Locker Room thread last month sometime.) As far as nominees to help copyedit? Well, if Miz Bat doesn't want to do it, I think jerseygirl or goddam could do the job. YYM or Dr. John are good choices, though maybe someone outside of North America, like Squealy or WC2k2 or Owlhouse, should be considered. And I would be happy to pitch in. I feel like I'm doing much of this stuff already, and it wouldn't be a big stretch.

posted by chicobangs at 10:01 PM on July 17, 2006

And I would be happy to pitch in. I feel like I'm doing much of this stuff already, and it wouldn't be a big stretch. Which is exactly why I nominated you, chico. Jerseygirl would be a fine choice as well for that matter. I say that the Pantheon decides since user numbers don't neccesarily mean much. I can also think of a few users who would make fine editors, but aren't neccesarily the first 1k or so to join SpoFi. My comment was meant more as a poke at DrJohn (his number is 1042). But my point is that I would like the editorial duties to go to those who know what SpoFi was meant to be (not that I know what that is), which would be the earlier members. I'm not saying a newer member wouldn't be able to do a fine job. I would have no problem with YYM having those duties. I also agree that it would be nice to have an editor on the other side of the globe that could hall monitor at times impractical for those on the western hemisphere. Can I have that penny now?

posted by MrFrisby at 12:14 AM on July 18, 2006

Of course we could never let you be an editor MrFrisby since you have one of those horrible five digit user numbers.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 05:53 AM on July 18, 2006

Sounds yummy! I don't think FPPs need to be immediately posted. Any loss in timeliness would easily be made up in tastiness.

posted by bperk at 07:54 AM on July 18, 2006

I think jerseygirl or goddam could do the job. jerseygirl and goddam are ideal candidates for a job like this. So would batty, but I think she's already discounted herself. Who's on the West Coast?

posted by NoMich at 09:11 AM on July 18, 2006

I move to have SpoFi 2.0 include a scratch and sniff feature for skydivedad.

posted by jerseygirl at 09:42 AM on July 18, 2006

I don't know if I want to sort out that guy. He's saving pants he wore that still have shit stains on them.

posted by jerseygirl at 09:52 AM on July 18, 2006

Let's give him a wedgie.

posted by redsoxrgayisgay at 09:59 AM on July 18, 2006

OK, scratch that goddamn goddam from the list. Let's make it jerseygirl and our friend from Australia. Whoever the fuck that is. And I want banhammer privileges. Although, that may be a bad idea. The first one against the banhammer wall would be that dude that only talks about how wimpy the "new" NHL is. The revolution will not be comment spammed!

posted by NoMich at 10:22 AM on July 18, 2006

He's saving pants he wore that still have shit stains on them. He also has one of Carl Yastrzemski's balls on his mantle.

posted by tselson at 11:17 AM on July 18, 2006

In my opinion one should describe a link in order to get more people to read it. They should try to make their little summary interesting enough that people will read the link and possibly comment. Obviously they should give the reader some sense of what the link will be about, but they don't have to summarize the whole thing. Also, if one hates the new NHL I would recommend just not reading hockey threads.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 11:33 AM on July 18, 2006

jerseygirl and goddam are ideal candidates for a job like this. So would batty, but I think she's already discounted herself. Who's on the West Coast? I'm on the West Coast. *shoves hands in pockets* *kicks can*

posted by lilnemo at 12:23 PM on July 18, 2006

The other thing about this (if I understand what you-all are thinking) is that the lag time will ultimately be very small, and often close to zero. Along with the fledgeling editourettes (whoever and however many they shall ultimately be), Gary & Rogers would no doubt be doing shifts as well, and aside from the occasional evening where everyone would be out carousing or cavorting at the same time, there would always be someone nearby to vet new posts. You could even set up some kind of email notification to make sure someone's always close to the front door without everyone involved having to keep an extra window open on autorefresh. (Maybe.) And bperk, I would think that FPP legibility is one of the main reasons this is even being contemplated. A little mystery wouldn't (I imagine) be a disqualifier for a good FPP by any stretch, but blind links, red herrings and shaggy dog stories can get old and distracting fast.

posted by chicobangs at 12:50 PM on July 18, 2006

At the risk of being booed, I'd have to say I'm leery of the two-stepping process. Not opposed. Just leery. The pantheon knows better than me, but I don't think many new users are afraid of being slagged because of poor FPPs. From what I've seen, most of the bad FPPs aren't from those who didn't know any better but from members who wanted to stir the pot. Now, I understand SpoFi veterans are distressed over how things have changed since the population explosion, but compared to what's out there, this place is pristine. (Once in a while I'll stop in at The Sporting News or CBS SportsLine and check out their blogs and posts ... I always come away feeling dirty and thinking "there but for the grace of Jobu go I.") But as I was saying, I'm leery of FPP peer editing/review. Not that I should be immune to it -- because we can all use a good editor -- but I've had dozens of editors over the years and I can honestly say I only liked the work of two or three (I've also been an editor, and, true to form, have only liked the work of two or three writers.) Yeah, it's just a teaser graph, but I suppose what I'm really leery of is too many fingers in the pot. So the idea of regional "sponsors", I like that. OK. If anyone is so inclined, let the boos and chastising commence.

posted by forrestv at 01:20 PM on July 18, 2006

Dear God, a Multiplicity reference. If the other eight people who saw that movie would chime in, it'd make an interesting discussion, to be sure. Nobody has sex with my wife but me.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 01:39 PM on July 18, 2006

I think chico and jerseygirl would make ideal editors, DJE and TBH also. I agree with having a user from a different country or two, say squealy and owlhouse. As for the editing itself, I'm assuming that it will mostly be geared toward things like the Wie post and links back to SpoFi, not everything. I doesn't seem as much editorializing as it does just cleaning up the shit that the SpoFi dog left on the front page. I wouldn't mind being an editor but I guess being the union rep for the 3k'ers takes up to much time.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 01:47 PM on July 18, 2006

forrestv, I see this as a preventative measure to replace the reactionary procedures that are already in place. As jerseygirl said, there's a lot of shit here, too, but the Pantheon works hella hard to clean it up whenever it appears. This sponsoring/editing idea would release them from much of that sort of work, allowing them to concentrate their efforts on more productive tasks, like the implementation of SpoFi v2.0. If I were an editor, I would promote a "big site" mentality, and wouldn't be flat-out restrictive except for extreme cases. It would be important for all editors to work from the guidelines and not just from their personal preferences. My reactions to proposed posts could probably be graded thus:

1. "Perfect. Great post. Keep it up."
2. "It's not a bad post, but here are a few reasons why it might not go over too well, and here are a few things you could do to fix it. Post it as-is if you like, but I would recommend a bit more thought first."
3. "This isn't great, and here's why: [insert reasons, cite guidelines]. There's a foundation for a good post here, but you need to fix it up by doing this and this and maybe this before you're there."
4. "This is not what SpoFi is for. Please read the guidelines, specifically [insert relevant guidelines here]. It's obvious you feel strongly about [issue], why not dig up something a little more interesting about it, like [suggestion]?"

posted by DrJohnEvans at 02:11 PM on July 18, 2006

DJE, I don't doubt the Pantheon works hard to clean things up. I was just leery of peer reviewing/editing. Your "big site" mentality, however, assuages my worries. It's a good idea. That, along with regional SpoFi hall monitors, would be lovely.

posted by forrestv at 03:03 PM on July 18, 2006

As long as the guidelines are rewritten to reflect the new mindset, I'd have no problem with any of this.

posted by chicobangs at 03:26 PM on July 18, 2006

It really is "Yes/No," but if you send it back with a "No," having a guidelines-mandated reason why gives the entire enterprise the air of legitimacy and rationality that the kids seem to dig so much.

posted by chicobangs at 03:31 PM on July 18, 2006

5. "Oh why don't you just fuck off?" Is the reaction I would expect to a Yankees/Red Sox bashing, Michelle Wie, Barry Bonds, or Barbaro post. Also, Ben Roethlisberger's helmet.

posted by forrestv at 04:40 PM on July 18, 2006

Agreed. Gary said he was on that one.

posted by chicobangs at 05:11 PM on July 18, 2006

Why not get a euro and an oz or asian too? Well this is exactly the issue I was hoping to imply. You see us Europeans live in a different timezone to most SpoFi users and I don't want to see some up to the minute post about which new granny Wayne Rooney has shagged having to wait for some colonial to approve it. Personally I'm agin the whole idea. But then us English never did take well to anything new. Thanks for the nomination YYM but I really don't think I could take on the responsibility of being the sole abitrator for all posts put forward in the European timezone. If for no other reasons than I'm mainly at work during the time I use SpoFi and have no real knowledge of US sports.

posted by squealy at 06:50 PM on July 18, 2006

For what it's worth, I don't keep normal daytime hours here, but if Wayne the Pain Train Rooney is shagging (or schtupping, or boinking, or making the "ronaldo with two backs" with, or sharing tea with, or sharing cross with, or sharon stone with, etc etc ad absurdum) my granny, I wouldn't mind finding out sooner than later.

posted by chicobangs at 06:58 PM on July 18, 2006

Like squealy, I too would like to thank the Academy for the nomination.... But I don't think I'm the right person for this. I travel out of my time zone too much for a start, then I know nothing about html or whatever, and when at home I am on a very unreliable dial up connection with terribly slow response times. The perils of living in the Australian bush. Also I would tend to crack down heavily on poor grammar, spelling and New Zealanders, rather than the actual content in FPPs.

posted by owlhouse at 07:28 PM on July 18, 2006

posted by yerfatma at 09:50 PM on July 18, 2006

Also, Ben Roethlisberger's helmet. What helmet?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:28 PM on July 18, 2006

It wasn't a question, TBH, it was a punchline.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:43 AM on July 19, 2006

It wasn't a question, TBH, it was a punchline. Well, duh!

posted by The_Black_Hand at 10:58 AM on July 19, 2006

And again... Do we really need to have a once a month post reminding us that Michelle Wie sucks?

posted by Joey Michaels at 06:28 PM on August 11, 2006