Bo-I'll concede your stats. Just glad Rolen is gone and away from La Russa. Glaus may be the answer at 3rd base. Deal is done according to reports. Did both check out medically already? Wasn't deal contingent on medical evaluation?
bo, if i told you about a player with a carreer batting avg. of .260, 138 home runs, 27 stolen bases, and a slugging percentage of 367, you probably wouldnt be all that impressed. but what made hall of famer bill mazeroski great, went far beyond the numbers. i love baseball, but as fans we all get WAY too caught up in the numbers. we use them to justify every opinion because "numbers dont lie" but they dont tell the whole story either.reggie jackson struck out four times as many times as he went deep (2597 so/563 hr) does that mean he doesnt deserve credit for beeing a great offensive player? in the case of whitey, there is a lot more to why he was great. he never had an albert pujols, a scott rolen, a jim edmonds. he never had 5 gold gloves on the same field as tony did at one time. he never came close to the pitching rotations that tony has had. in his eleven year whity won 3 pennants and one series. the two world series that he lost were both in game seven, and most cardinal fans would tell you that they won the 85 series in game six, when jorge orta was thrown out at first for the final out but was called safe, inspite of ortas foot print on top of todd worrell's foot. my point is that numbers are just numbers. there is far more to being a great player or manager than the stats. whitey was a pioneer. he started a style of baseball that has been very successful in places like atlanta and queens the white sox won a world series a couple years ago playing a form of whitey-ball. and thats how the rockies got to the series last year. he is one of the most under-appreciated managers of his time. maybe of any time.
Did both check out medically already? I think it's one of those "Caveat Emptor" deals involving both. Anyone thinking they're not getting risky, possibly damaged goods in either Glaus or Rolen, hasn't been paying attention.
elijahin, I realize stats do not mean everything. My point was not trying to prove that LaRussa is better than Herzog/Torre. It was to show that LaRussa knows his job and has #'s to back it up. (And he deserves the credit for his success even from people who disagree with him.) What I do find interesting is the squabbles with Ozzie and Rolen. Tony has managed lots of players in his career, I can only assume is was a personality conflict with these 2 players that caused the turmoil. I think it was bad luck on Tony's behalf that he had these conflicts with two all-time St. Louis fan Favorites. (Let's not paint Ozzie and Rolen innocent though, publicly or not, the disdain for their manager was evident.)
in the case of rolen i would agree. rolen left philly because of authority issues. and he and tony have had them for years. i like scotty, but he has always had some attitude issues. tony does too, and in this case i have to side with tony. in the case of ozzie, however, it wasnt that there were issues that soured people on tony, it was how he handled them. ozzie had more than earned his right to stay, and had not declined a bit on defense. his offense wasn't nearly as good as claytons had been up until that point (although has anyone heard from him since?) what bothered me, was that he constantly nudged an all-time great out the door before he needed to. ozzie was a fantastic lead-off hitter. he didnt need power numbers. the team wasnt ready to compete for the division crown yet anyway.
but he has always had some attitude issues If a bad attitude is wanting management to make a committment to winning, and expanding payroll to accomplished the goal, then yes, Rolen has a bad attitude. Tony, also has a arrogent attitude when it comes to criticising his players in the press. Aside from Ozzie and the DUI, this is the one aspect of his personality that pisses me off the most.
I'll bet it was a hard decision for Tony to pressure Ozzie in that way. After all, when Tony joined the team, he chose jersey #10, and used that as motivation to bring the club it's 10th WS in 2006. It was not his job to satisfy the hearts of the fan-faithful by keeping an aging Ozzie around. It was his job to bring in new talent and put the best product on the field. Whether it was Ozzie's time to go or not, Tony had to do his best for what he thought was the long-term. (Obviously, Clayton did not pan out with the Cards.) Seems unfair that a new manager would have to come into a city with a then-struggling franchise and be told "Okay Tony, do what you wish, but just let Ozzie fizzle out without any disruption." Instead, Tony stood his gound, did what he had to do and then got a bunch of bad press. Me, I'd hate to be a MLB manager, that's a tough choice, and I respect anyone who makes those choices and stands by them.
It was not his job to satisfy the hearts of the fan-faithful by keeping an aging Ozzie around. It was his job to bring in new talent and put the best product on the field. Ya, take look at Ozzie's number in 1996, all were higher than his career average numbers. My money on La Russa's stabbing Ozzie in the back, after making a promise to give Smith a chance at the starting shortstop position.
bo, don' know diddly. first off. tony has worn the number ten throughout his carreer as a manager. first for the white sox, then for oakland, and now in stl. second, as nakeman points out ozzies stats in 96 were better than his carreer average. what, ha didnt have anything left in the tank? as you said clayton didnt pan out that well himself. yes the franchise was struggling, so yes, lets get rid of the one thing that is going right. thats always a good idea. look tony has done well in stl. im not disputing that. i just think he was wrong in the way he delt with ozzie smith at the end of ozzie's carreer. i give him credit for building the team we had for the last few years. and the one that won the series in '06. but i still think he started off badly. thats all.
a chance at the starting shortstop position. Then he had to make a tough choice. One above average year from Ozzie meant one year of waiting for the club's future. bo, don' know diddly. first off. tony has worn the number ten throughout his carreer as a manager. Please Read. Manager Tony LaRussa chose jersey number 10 in 1996 to mark his determination to win a 10th World Series for the Cards. That came from here. Truce you guys, we all have had valid points, stats and outlooks regarding Tony LaRussa and Co. I want the best for the Cards and the fans of St. Louis, but sometimes it's gonna be hard to swallow.
sorry bo, i really didnt want to be confrontational, and i debated it in my head, but in the end, i just couldnt pass up the oppertunity to use the "bo don' know diddly" line. its a classic. that having been said, tony did wear the number ten at both of his other managing gigs. he likes to play things up in the media, and hes good with symbolism. i get that he said thats why he chose the number, but the reality is that he, like all baseball guys, is superstitious, and wanted to keep the same number he had worn for fifteen or so years. he can play up the symbolism all he wants.
Ooo...ooo... if we're going there, it is not a mute point, it's a moot point. This is the second thread I have read that on in the past ten minutes. Very grating.
mute point.....shhhhhh...quiet now. Let's hear for the sound of silence.
