October 21, 2007

Of course since posting this, it's been announced BMW and Williams are under investigation for failing the post race scrutineering. If the drivers were DQ'ed, that'd hand Lewis the championship.

This is the season that won't die...

posted by Drood at 5:18 PM CDT on October 21

No penalty for BMW or Williams, Kimi Raikkonen is officially the world champion............

posted by eccsport78 at 6:55 PM CDT on October 21

Not over yet. According to Speed Channel, McLaren are, of course, appealing... *sigh*

posted by Drood at 8:47 PM CDT on October 21

I imagine McLaren don't have many friends in the FIA these days....

posted by eccsport78 at 6:01 PM CDT on October 22

Let me state my position for the record. I:

HATE FERRARI.
AM A BIG FAN OF ALONSO.
HAVE ALWAYS LIKED MCLAREN.

So it may be a surprise to hear that I am fully with Raikkonen as a deserving champion. McLaren condemned Ferrari this year for being unsporting, trying to win in the courtroom, and banged on endlessly about McLaren's "integrity" and sportsmanship.

Well with this, they have shown their true colours. They clearly have no integrity. With this ridiculous attempt to kick back at Ferrari, I am now wondering just how much of their denials about using Ferrari information was nonsense, since clearly they can't be trusted. They have the chance to strike back at Ferrari and they've done it. No amount of justification from Whitmarsh, Dennis etc... Is going to convince me it isn't just sour grapes. If Raikkonen's car had been illegal then fair enough, but, and I can't believe I'm saying this, Ferrari have done nothing wrong. Ferrari are innocent this time. The race was clean, and bloody fantastic to see. When the realisation dawned about two thirds of the way in that Kimi was going to be champion after all the bullshit this year, it was one of the best moments in my 20+ years as an F1 fan.

I really hope Alonso moves elsewhere next year. I'd rather see him not winning than wallow in the utter corruption and hypocrisy of McLaren. I'm sick of bloody Lewis. He's fast, but he's an idiot. (And I find his relationship with his father more than a little creepy.) Ron and Lewis can rot at the cramped end of the pitlane next year where they belong. I hope they fail miserably and the sponsors take their dollars to a more deserving team.

And for the record, I've seen someone do the math. They wouldn't have won the constructors title anyway, due to the points they lost at Hungary. Not done the math myself, but it would appear to be correct.

I am absolutely disgusted right now. It was glorious to see a beautiful, clean battle on the track, and then we wind up with this crap. As a fan of Formula One above all else, I am sickened to see the sport being dragged through the excrement once again.

In 1994, Schmacher took Hill out. Williams had every right to file a protest, but Patrick Head has publically stated that they didn't for the good of the sport. They were very upset and angry, but put the sport first. I wish more teams were like Williams. Sure, they're not pure as the driven, but they seem to be one of the few teams left that are remotely sporting.

posted by Drood at 12:12 AM CDT on October 23

I'm not sure how Williams and BMW's use of fuel cooled to illegal levels is McLaren doing anything to the sport. Cooled fuel provides an on-track horsepower advantage to any car and shortens pit-stop refueling times too.

The track stewards determined two teams were operating outside of the rules.
The stewards then decided not to impose any punishment against these teams.
McLaren have appealed that decision.

I don't see any shit dragging there, but it's moot anyway, as the chances of McLaren getting the FIA to rule against BMW and Williams and thereby take the driver's title from Ferrari : zero.

posted by Mr Bismarck at 6:35 AM CDT on October 23

“I wonder how long you've been F1 fans? Or are you the dreaded casual fans who really don't care about the sport, but have only come to it because of certain nationalistic interests and now assume yourself to be experts?

Whatever, I'm done justifying my opinion here. Let's just cut to the chase. I'm right.”

Wow. That's beautiful right there.

I've been involved with F1 since I was in the womb. My father was a mechanic for the Cooper team, the Lotus team and finally the Shadow Hill team. He worked with former world champion Phil Hill at Cooper, then worked for Lotus when they won driver and constructor championships in 1970 and 72 and then worked with former World Champion Graham Hill at his team. Hill's death affected my Father badly and that, coupled with all the travelling with a young son in tow, (me), lead to him quitting full-time involvement with F1. In the mid 70s he did some brief work for Hesketh F1 and future World Champion James Hunt. Finally he had some even more brief work with Walter Wolf and Toleman.

Later, between the age of 18 and 22 I went to an average of four European Grand Prix a season. In a very cranky VW Camper Van. The last GP I went to was won by Johnny Herbert, which will give you an idea of how long I've been off the circuit, but at last count I'd hit 34 Grand Prix.

I didn't become an F1 fan - F1 is something I grew up in. It has always been there, like breathing.

In light of that, I'm going to be presumptuous here and assume that you're going to be kind enough to allow me to play in your thread.

So, to address some of your viewpoints.

You ask why McLaren are the only team appealing the decision, (although you then sort of puncture your own argument by suggesting that Super Aguri are the only team politically free to appeal the decision).

I don’t know, so like you, I’m going to have to guess. In order, the reasons I can come up with are :

1) McLaren can win a world championship via a successful appeal.

2) No one else has to appeal, because McLaren have. If the Williams and BMW cars are excluded everyone of the teams who can potentially benefit, do benefit, even though McLaren have done the leg work. I think it’s much more likely that this is the reason Toyota haven’t appealed, rather than some concern for their engine customer.

3) Super Aguri were, (with McLaren), one of three teams fined €15,000 on Friday for using too many sets of wet tyres. It’s no secret that a good way to get a big penalty from the FIA is to appeal a small one and BBC commentary teams and some of the “many F1 sites on the net” point out that if the FIA overturn Sunday’s decision, they may also revisit Friday’s decision. McLaren have no constructor points to lose. Super Aguri do. So if I was Aguri Suzuki, I’d be sat on my hands letting McLaren stick their necks out too.

You mention that the FIA’s sporting regulations say that “the outcome is at the discretion of the stewards” which is correct, but the FIA also provide an appeal process and it isn’t there just for show. In fact, in the “similar” issue in Brazil that you mention, (in 1995), Benetton and Williams both used the appeal route to reclaim their driver points after the original steward’s decision was to remove both driver and constructor points.

In that instance, the illegal fuel did not improve car performance. In this case, Williams and BMW were confirmed (by FIA data) to have used fuel cooled outside the set limits – a change that does improve car performance. The stewards decided they had insufficient evidence. I’d appeal that too. Especially with a world driver’s title on the line and the assertion from Martin Whitmarsh that “The team believes that the FIA has, in written clarification of the Technical Regulations and in its minutes of two Formula 1 Team Manager meetings, made clear how it would interpret and manage the Regulations and Procedures associated with the control of fuel temperatures.”

When the governing body says specifically “don’t do X” and then two teams go ahead and do X anyway, you’d have to expect the scrutiny to be even more thorough than usual.

As for what I think will happen… well, in 1995 the teams weren’t given their driver points back because they were cleared, they were given the points because the FIA appeal experts group couldn’t come to a decision about whether the fuel gave the drivers an advantage. I expect the same sort of “wash” here as the FIA admit that their data shows fuel that is outside of the stipulated temperature bands, but their experts are unable to come to a unanimous decision about whether the evidence is compelling and what that means.

Williams might end up with a financial smack on the wrist or a +10 grid slots at the first Grand Prix of next season for breaking the rules twice in one race weekend, but I don’t expect the FIA to decide the destination of the world title off the track, regardless of how correct it may or may not be to do so.

I expect McLaren to lose and I suspect McLaren expect McLaren to lose, but with no constructor points to lose and a world championship to gain, I’d totally appeal, even if that appeal didn’t have the added bonus for McLaren of spoiling Ferrari’s day.

But you're right, so what do I know.

posted by Mr Bismarck at 10:48 AM CDT on October 24