Since he's not headed for Boston, I'll shove the sour grapes in my mouth and point out that he's a six inning pitcher now. posted by YukonGold No sour grapes here. I've said all along I wanted nothing to do with Clemens, and I'm still amazed so many Sox fans wanted him back. Such short memories. He's the ultimate mercenary, and a player waiting each year until the season starts to decide where he fits in best and who's desparate enough and most willing to pay the most money is bad for baseball. This goes beyond the yankees and the Sox. The game is bigger than any one player, and that's what the Baseball Prospectus doesn't seem to get. It wasn't a difficult decision for Clemens for these reasons: 1. Money. You can ignore the drivel coming from Clemens about the yankees 'knowing how to win'. For the same reason dice-k came to boston, Clemens went to NY. On a bright side, he's closer than ever to Bill Simmons' dream of Clemens entering the hall with a dollar sign on his cap. 2. He wants to go into the hall of fame as a yankee. Another Championship, another year of touching the monuments in center field and he'll be that much closer. 3. Pettitte. They look like lost puppies without each other. 4. Schilling. Two egos too big to exist on one pitching staff. 5. He fits in better in NY. He played there not too long ago. He knows Jeter, Pettitte, Rivera, etc. Who does he know in Boston? That was a long time ago. I also think Sox players would have had more trouble with his 'special treatment' while the Yankee players signed off on it. 6. It's a better situation. NY is in much better shape than most believe; their demise greatly exaggerated. They have the best hitting lineup in the league, and one Clemens won't have to face now. The pitching staff is already beginning to get healthy. They had enough talent to win the East already, It's Clemens coming to be the savior when it's not even clear if he's needed. It's like joining microsoft to save the company; a bit of an illusion. And if NY falters? Well, he gave it his all, but even that wasn't enough. In boston he'd be coming to a team already 5 games in front. Nothing to be saved. They win the division with Clemens? Big deal. They were winning the division before Clemens. But if he comes to boston and they eventually lose to the yankees then he looks like a failure. There's nothing to save in boston, only to lose. You can spin it anyway you want, this is a big upgrade for the Yanks. posted by The Crafty Sousepaw Sousepaw is right. NY is the team to beat. Based on talent, NY could eventually run away with the division. They're going to score more runs. Their lineup inludes perhaps the greatest player in history, their starting pitching includes a great post season pitcher, a current yearly cy young candidate, a borderline Hall of Famer, and now perhaps the greatest pitcher in history as a what, 4th starter? Add to that the greatest closer in history, and how could NY lose? Which means all the pressure is on Torre. Nothing short of winning the WS can be seen as anything but a complete failure, and I'm sure George would agree. On a personal side, this hopefully brings to a close all the nonsense about Clemens completing the circle in Boston. Hopefully Theo won't be sending him any more DVDs trying to win him back. Maybe Sox fans will finally move on. It's been embarrassing for too many years. And if the Yankees win the World Series this year, so be it. I'm far more comfortable with 'wait until next year' than rooting for Clemens. Fans were chanting his name at Yankee Stadium yesterday and Clemens, the narcissist that he is, was eating it up. As nauseating as that was better there than Fenway. And if he goes into the Hall with a Yankee cap, all the better. Anyone but the sox (and I know he feels the same). He waits because he knows that pitcher injuries will crop up and he'll be able to maximize his value when they do occur. Of course, if Boston, New York, Texas and Houston were all healthy and in comfortable positions (Bos/NYY tied for AL East lead), then there wouldn't be any demand for him, so he'd probably retire. I can't figure out why everyone gets their panties in a bunch about him doing what he does. If a team REALLY wanted him, they would have approached him during the off-season. Obviously, that didn't happen, so now that he's in a fortuitous bargaining position, he's not supposed to take advantage of it? So you're claiming he waits until he can maximize his value, and if the need is not there, and therefore the money, he retires (which is the same reason no one approaches him in the off season, too costly). Basically you're saying he only plays for the money. I can understand someone not caring, but I find it a little bewildering that you can't see that bothering someone else.
It is game 7 of the world series. List 2 other people you would rather have on the mound. posted by Debo270 No pressure will get to him and he brings the same level of play day in and day out. When the shit is on, the pressure won't bother him. posted by Debo270 How about listing 20 other people? Clemens is the greatest pitcher of our generation, probably of all time. Isn't that enough praise? I honestly don't see how anyone who has paid attention to Clemens in the post season could possibly make those statements. His stats are good, no doubt. He doesn't become an average pitcher in october. He has, as mentioned before, the habit of bailing when things go bad. He's a bit of a frontrunner. Great when things go well, not so much when things don't. But behind the simple numbers, he has an unfortunate resume of either coughing up leads his mates have given him (eight different games so far - in one of which in 2002 he blew three separate leads), or getting out of the game prematurely or controversially, or all of the above. If the Astros live to a Game Five and Clemens is healthy, they should just say "no, thanks." Link He's not someone you want to go to war with, and if he hadn't bailed on several starts, his ERA would have suffered. The sad part is 75 years from now the Clemens legacy is going to include being a great post season pitcher because all we'll have is stats. Stats that in this case don't tell the whole story. Stats that will be just as misleading as those grum just trotted out.
If a team REALLY wanted him, they would have approached him during the off-season. Obviously, that didn't happen, so now that he's in a fortuitous bargaining position, he's not supposed to take advantage of it? the yankees offered him $25.5 million in spring training. they had started talking about what it would take to get Clemens back in the bronx late last year. part of that process was asking the senior members of the team if they were OK with the "family travel" issue. apparently they were. that was the sticking point last year with the yankees. both houston and boston had ok'd it but not new york, so they were third on roger's list.
dammit, ran out of time on the edit thingy. basically, Clemens was on the yankees' radar since december of last year and his camp was well aware of it.
clemens will be in the hall next to barry bonds and jason gambi.He keeps getting larger. Does MLB drug test a player when he's retired?
Does MLB drug test a player when he's retired? Perhaps we should start drug testing before allowing people to post. On topic: I hoped he wouldn't come to Boston, because I like the chemistry they've got and I really thought he'd destroy the clubhouse, or at the very least, cause it some serious damage. I didn't like Clemens when he was in Boston. Loved his game, but never liked him. It's one of those "I respect you but don't like you" situations. Most of us have been in one or two of those in our lives.
evil earl, please give us a link backing up your hyperbole, otherwise as Gene Hackman said in "Crimson Tide", Sit down and Stfu"
Since I'm not a Yankees fan, I was going to stay out of this discussion but because I know I won't be biased, I decided otherwise. I think that the Rocket can come in, give the Yankees 6-7 strong, solid innings and be that catalyst they've been missing this year. It just doesn't seem to me as if the Yankees were truly jelling together as a team just yet. Not saying that Clemens' return will improve on that but it can give the rest of the team a shot in the ass to wake up and play some better baseball considering the future Hall of Famer is on the mound for them this season. At 44, the Rocket is by far the oldest but the best pitcher on the Yankees staff and he can still do what he's being paid $4 million a month for....to win. He keeps himself in pretty good shape but just like the rest of the baseball world, he needs to get himself in game shape and his mechanics will soon follow.
No sour grapes here. I've said all along I wanted nothing to do with Clemens, and I'm still amazed so many Sox fans wanted him back. Such short memories. I guess I'm not ready to pretend that Roger isn't better than Julian Tavarez and Jon Lester. A caller to WEEI in Boston this morning was desperately trying to make a point that Clemens is nothing more than a #5 starter in Boston. Yeah, if you count him as the fifth guy in the pitching order. The gap between what you can reasonably expect from Clemens and from the other two pitchers is a gap the size of the Grand Canyon. For that, he's a valuable upgrade. Boston loves to overvalue its pitchers and undervalue whoever New York has. The baggage that Clemens comes with (from a fan perspective) is an understandable reason to not be jumping through hoops facilitating his arrival.
some dance move from "Thriller" I'm totally singing Thriller now and probably about 2 bars away from getting up and doing the dance. on preview: I just started doing the head-twitching move. It's on.
Fine, I'll cue up Thriller on the iPod too. I hate being left out.
If the two were here, I'd buy them both beers -- David Wells and Greg Maddux call Clemens out for not travelling with the team. If I was a player, I wouldn't sign off on that horseshit either. You want to be on this team, you travel with us or you sit your ass at home in your La-Z-Boy and watch.
clemens will be in the hall next to barry bonds and jason gambi.He keeps getting larger. Does MLB drug test a player when he's retired? I keep getting larger, too. And I wouldn't know a steroid if it stuck me in the ass! Hopefully they won't start testing fans who attend games for chicken wings, jalapeno poppers and beer. As for Clemens' contract allowing him not to travel with the team, he's already said that's only put in for an option when he may need to use it. He claims he plans on traveling with the team much of the time between starts. And as for him getting that contract provision in the first place, have another player win seven Cy Young Awards, then we'll cross that bridge. I seriously doubt Jeff Karstens, for example, will ever have that sort of clout. Those who do, hey, go for it. I personally have never watched a game and worried which starting pitcher was occupying which seat on the bench. As for the other players' response? Get over it. Anyone who thinks other players have any big objections to his contract arrangements based on anything else but jealousy are a bit naive.
Does MLB drug test a player when he's retired? I doubt it. Clemens was named in the Grimsley affidavit, so mentioning it doesn't really seem off-topic. I think it is curious how few people are suspicious of Clemens remarkable performance after 40.
Get over it. Anyone who thinks other players have any big objections to his contract arrangements based on anything else but jealousy are a bit naive. Really? A player can't just believe a team plays and stays together? It has to be jealousy? Like most sweeping statements, that's nonsense.
I guess I'm not ready to pretend that Roger isn't better than Julian Tavarez and Jon Lester. Neither am I. That said, if the sox lose it because they didn't sign a 45 year old part time pitcher, they don't deserve it.
Clemens is the greatest pitcher of our generation, probably of all time. Cy Young is pounding on his grave like the Pharaoh of Ahkmenrah in Night at the Museum. Now don't get me wrong, nothing would glue me to the set more than watching Schil and the Rocket get it on at Fenway or Yankee Stadium. Like watching a pay per view fight with, say, Foreman and Tyson. But the greatest of all time? Please.
David Wells and Greg Maddux call Clemens out for not travelling with the team. If either one of them were playing for the Yankees this year, then it would mean something but we're talking about two great pitchers that play in San Diego commenting on something that has nothing to do with them in New York. I mean, I can appreciate what they're saying from a fan's perspective but when it's all said and done, I'm sure if they had that option included in their contract, they wouldn't be saying a word. I could be wrong though. Cy Young is pounding on his grave like the Pharaoh of Ahkmenrah in Night at the Museum. That was a pretty good movie. But the greatest of all time? Please. I have to agree and say that the Rocket is a great pitcher and is one of the greatest pitchers of my generation. I never had a chance to see Cy Young play and I was too young to appreciate what the 'Nolan Ryan Express' brought to the game (even though he played for my Mets) but I was able to see guys like Clemens, Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, Martinez, Cone and even Gooden to name a few, play in their prime. All of those guys are Hall of Famers (sans Gooden) but the Rocket is the only one that can get that type of option in his contract. Some guys may not like it but the guy can come in and still do what he's known for......winning!
The game is bigger than any one player That really is the tricky thing about this, isn't it? I waffle on how I feel about Clemens' tactics over the last few years. On the one hand, if the option is between Clemens retiring or playing short seasons to prolong his career, and he can maintain a high level of production as he has, it is very similar to Hank Aaron becoming an AL DH to prolong his career a few years. In both cases, a few more seasons of new fans get a chance to say they saw one of the game's greatest players, and that almost makes it worth it. But is it worth having a new set of rules established for that one great player, rules by which only he gets to live and work? Tough call. That Clemens is a first-rate jerk really shouldn't play into the equation about how we feel about all this. Clemens is hard to root for? A majority of the game's greatest pitchers were jerks -- it almost comes with the territory. There aren't too many Hall of Fame pitchers who are big, cuddly Captain Kangaroo-looking guys like Gaylord Perry. Nolan Ryan? Bob Gibson? Walter Johnson? Steve Carlton? And these days, Randy Johnson? Curt Schilling? I mean, Greg Maddux? I'm a huge Mariano Rivera fan, but just looking at him gives me the willies. I shook his hand once and was seriously concerned that I would turn to stone or salt or a snake or something.* I don't want my starting pitchers to be the kinds of guys I would want as a roommate. Especially if they are power pitchers. I'm very comfortable rooting for Clemens without identifying too closely with his personality. if the sox lose it because they didn't sign a 45 year old part time pitcher, they don't deserve it. The implication being that if the Yankees win after signing a 45-year-old part-time pitcher, they won't have deserved it. I don't understand how you can possibly stand behind this comment. I'm not sure I even understand it. If your argument is that Clemens is just some 45-year-old pitcher, I think you do a Hall of Famer a disservice. Do you really think bolstering your staff mid-season with a signing like this hollows the victory? More than a mid-season trade? Or waiver pickup? Or AAA promotion? I don't get that. *Somebody needs to talk to Papelbon about that game face. Everything else about him is gold, but when that little baby face whips around with that pseudo-glare and those little pursed lips, I just want to pinch his little cheeks and laugh. I dunno, maybe that's a strategy.
But the greatest of all time? Please. Why not? Are we supposed to accept your contention at face value and not someone else's? Clemens: ERA+ of 144 over 23 seasons Cy Young: ERA+ of 138 over 22 seasons I'm willing to accept either (or someone else), but give me reasons.
The implication being that if the Yankees win after signing a 45-year-old part-time pitcher, they won't have deserved it. I don't think so, at least that's not how I took the original comment, but it could be that Red Sox fans are thick-skinned deep thinkers. If the Sox had signed Clemens and won, it would have felt an awful lot like buying a pennant, between Dice-K, Rajah, Schilling and even Beckett, the rotation would be 80% the product of dollars and no sense. Some people were excited to have him return and win and get applauded and go into the Hall as a Red Sock. Nuts to that. Let him go in with a $ on his hat. As for Papelbon, I love the game face as-is because he looks legitimately crazy. Dave Stewart or Bob Gibson might have looked intimidating, but Papelbon looks like he might pull a knife.
First, let me make the case for Walter Johnson as the greatest pitcher of all time. It should be the Walter Johnson Award given out every year. Many people say Young's 511 wins is the most unbreakable record in baseball. I would argue that distinction goes to his 316 losses. Check out Johnson's stats: 417 wins, 110 shutouts, 2.17 ERA, 1.06 WHIP. He did all that playing for the SENATORS, the Devil Rays of their era. He lost 65 games in which Washington was shut out, 26 of them by a 1-0 score. Put him on those Boston teams Cy Young played for, and look out. Clemens is great. But he's nowhere near the greatest ever. As for that ERA+ argument, Johnson had 146 over 21 seasons. And if I can sound off on one other thing, why do posters insist on making the most outrageous assumptions about things they no nothing about? Any player who has a problem with Clemens is just jealous? If Wells and Maddux were allowed to bail on their teammates when they aren't starting, they'd change their tune and think it was acceptable? Come on, people, if you're going to make the argument that no one can judge Clemens without walking in his shoes, then do yourself, the rest of us and logic in general a favor and don't presume to judge Greg Maddux without walking in his shoes.
don't presume to judge Greg Maddux without walking in his shoes You might want to wipe the blood off first. And retract the blade. it would have felt an awful lot like buying a pennant The Red Sox payroll this year is estimated at around $140 million. Seriously, Clemens is the straw that breaks that genuine feeling? We Yankee fans are thin-skinned idiots, but we root for our laundry all the same -- if it's Armani or Brooks Brothers, an overpriced suit is an overpriced suit.
A look back at Clemens' first start. Worth it for the Gammons lines alone.
I'm willing to accept either (or someone else), but give me reasons. Two reasons come to mind quickly. 1. In the same amount of time, Cy Young has 163 more wins. You can argue that he had more starts, but that would favor my argument. 2. Cy Young won 23 Cy Young awards.
A player can't just believe a team plays and stays together? I truly believe that's a concept that went out, for the most part, with the '70s, with the last great teams that were together for long, long periods of time (the Dodgers of Garvey, Cey, Lopes, Baker, etc. are a prime example). Many players switch teams on an on-going basis these days, many in an attempt to get the most money they can. All this great "team-building" bullshit isn't something that can happen over a couple months. These days by the time a team leaves each other in October, then come back together in March, it's one new face after another. College basketball is going through it now, with kids staying a year or so, then taking off as soon as the opportunity presents itself. What does that have to do with the "team" concept? Athletes today (and organizations) are all about "Me first." That doesn't mean they don't try hard to win on the field, and that friendships don't develop. But I just don't see the actual team thing developing over one year. That's more a case of talent exceeding length of stay.
But is it worth having a new set of rules established for that one great player.... The DH was implemented in 1973 "to lessen the power of pitchers and create more offense" (stubhub.com; The Designated Hitter DH: Making Life Tough for AL Pitchers written by Paul Mrocza) but as you pointed out, Sousepaw this rule in fact helped Hank Aaron prolong his career. Granted, this rule wasn't made specifically for Hammerin' Hank but he sure took advantage of it, now didn't he?
2. Cy Young won 23 Cy Young awards. I didn't know they called it the 'Cy Young award' while Cy Young was still playing. Impressive.
I doubt it. Clemens was named in the Grimsley affidavit, so mentioning it doesn't really seem off-topic. I think it is curious how few people are suspicious of Clemens remarkable performance after 40. Actually, Clemens name wasn't mentioned by Grimsley, but proposed by the investigators TO Grimsley. Grimsley has come out in public (through his lawyer, naturally) to state that he did not implicate Clemens or Grimsley. The affidavit, as seen by insiders, has also been stated as having "significant errors", which some people are interpreting as an inaccurate list of "named names". Of course, that information never made it to the front page of ESPN or Sports Illustrated. As for his performance after 40, I assume everyone had the same problem with Nolan Ryan throwing heat and no-hitters after his 40th birthday? No? But why not? Clemens is great. But he's nowhere near the greatest ever. The Big Train is the greatest in my book (and as stated by other more qualified experts), but Clemens is definitely in the discussion as #2 or #3. If he keeps doing this "guest appearance" thing for 2 or 3 more seasons (and puts up he same great numbers), then the discussion about #1 becomes much more interesting... 1. In the same amount of time, Cy Young has 163 more wins. You can argue that he had more starts, but that would favor my argument. He also had 138 more losses. You can argue that he had more starts, but that would favour my argument (if I thought wins/losses was a good way to measure a pitcher's performance). Top 10 ERA+ seasons: Cy Young: 216, 194, 176, 166, 153, 152, 148, 145, 145, 140 Roger Clemens: 226, 221, 211, 197, 177, 176, 175, 169, 154 K/BB Cy Young: 2.30 Roger Clemens: 2.97 K/9IP Cy Young: 3.93 Roger Clemens: 8.60
I didn't know they called it the 'Cy Young award' while Cy Young was still playing. Impressive. That's almost like the irony of Lou Gehrig dying of "Lou Gehrig's Disease."
K/9IP Cy Young: 3.93 Roger Clemens: 8.60 I would think that illustrates the era more than the quality of pitcher. Young was expected to go the distance in every game, where exactly the opposite was expected of Clemens, and Young had substantially less fear of the three-run home run in the dead ball era. The strikeout didn't serve him as well as pitching to contact and shrinking his pitch count, and he was not compelled to pitch at above 80% effort when the bases were empty -- he would have to turn it up a notch, and maybe seek a strikeout, only when he got into trouble.
I didn't know they called it the 'Cy Young award' while Cy Young was still playing. Impressive. Drats. My best material, wasted. That's almost like the irony of Lou Gehrig dying of "Lou Gehrig's Disease." At least you got it.
Grimsley has come out in public (through his lawyer, naturally) to state that he did not implicate Clemens or Grimsley. So he didn't implicate himself? Smart move. That's almost like the irony of Lou Gehrig dying of "Lou Gehrig's Disease." No kiddin', he did? That is so ironic.
Grum, I'm generally in agreement with you. When I say Clemens is nowhere near the greatest, I'm saying Johnson is the greatest and Clemens is nowhere near him. Not 2 or 3 guest stints away from him either, in my humble opinion. Top 10 ERA+ seasons: Cy Young: 216, 194, 176, 166, 153, 152, 148, 145, 145, 140 Roger Clemens: 226, 221, 211, 197, 177, 176, 175, 169, 154, 145 Walter Johnson: 259, 240, 214, 214, 191, 183, 172, 164, 148, 147 K/BB Cy Young: 2.30 Roger Clemens: 2.97 Walter Johnson: 2.57 K/9IP Cy Young: 3.93 Roger Clemens: 8.60 Walter Johnson: 5.34 Shutouts: Cy Young: 76 Roger Clemens: 46 Walter Johnson: 110 WHIP: Cy Young: 1.13 Roger Clemens: 1.17 Walter Joh
