Thinking about it some more --- Wouldn't true justice be if this was a spark of a decline for the Islanders and if that point that Simon cost his teammates ended up being the difference between the 8th seed and 9th place in the East. Everyone keep your fingers crossed.
And whether we like it or not, with intent being clear, the person they're intending to do damage to becomes a factor. You had me in your corner until you said that line. In my dream-NHL, video of the incident is reviewed by a panel of former players/referees/coaches and fans. In the video, the faces of the offender and the victim are replaced with blue dots, and the jerseys are digitally altered to be simply red or blue. That way, team loyalty and player status don't come into play. My guess: Simon gets 6 games. BTW, I think you'll see a change in the rules this summer regarding head shots, cheap shots and the like. I think you'll end up with mandatory 1-, 5-, 10- and 20-game suspensions based on certain criteria (grevious nature of attack, defenselessness of victim, damage inflicted, previous violations). Throw a body check where contact is first made with the head (instead of the chest or shoulder)? 1-game suspension If the checker leads with his elbow/forearm? 5-game suspension If the player is hit with the stick to the head in a manner that is not consistent with regular play (accidental high-sticks)? 10-game suspension If the player is hit from behind in a way that could cause serious injury (into the boards head-first from more than 2 feet away, punch/elbow/stick to the head), 20-game suspension. If you commit a second offense in your career that is on the list, your punishment is an extra level higher. If you commit a 20-game offense after committing a previous offense, then you are suspended for the remainder of the season (and or part of next season), for a minimum of 40 games.
Well, I won't be rooting for that, 86, since I'm an Isles fan, but there would be some poetic justice if the Rangers beat them out for 8th by that one point. I'm just astounded by the stupidity of this. Legal check or not (I could've seen a boarding call and not argued it), there are so many ways to retaliate that would get you at most 10 minutes in the box. For someone who has been in the league for so long to decide "hey, I'll get up and immediately blast some dude in the neck with my stick out of the play"... wow. One of the dumbest things I've ever seen. Embarassing. What an idiot. Grum, I like your definitions there, but I disagree with your 6 game prediction. Given the severity of past penalties (Bertuzzi, the Turgeon hit, etc) I've got to think it's a certainty he's done for the year. Anyone have a link to the Janssen hit?
Coincidentally, Simon's cheap shot took place exactly three years to the day after this ugly incident.
One more note: If a player was suspended according to the rules I listed above, he would not receive pay. However, the team would still pay out the salary amount of the games missed, except it would go to the NHLPA pension fund. The team would then feel the crunch of having some goon sit for 40 games as they would need to replace him on the roster and still lose the money for his salary. I'm betting that there wouldn't be too many goons left on rosters...
I do think you're right grum, the players shouldn't matter. I think I got a little carried away in trying to illustrate why I thought Janssen's hit was just as bad. In retrospect, I don't need to include that and it doesn't matter.
Additionally, the only reason he chose to hit Kaberle was because Kaberle wasn't looking. Had Kaberle known Janssen was there and had Cam tried to hit him, Tomas steps around him without a thought or care in the world. The only reason that Janssen chose to run him is because he knew he could get him good. Isn't keeping your head up, part of hockey? How about "Ice-Awareness"? I would be willing to bet that this dude is suspended for the rest of the season. He tried to KILL the guy, by de-capitation. He should face some criminal charges as well (assault with intent to cause great bodily injury). I know some people will say that what happens in a game is not subject to the same laws as "normal", everyday life, but come on now... You can't just go around smashing people in the head with sticks. NO MATTER WHAT!
Grum, what makes you think there will be specific suspension guidelines enacted this summer? I figure the league likes having as few rules when it comes to supplementary discipline. All the better to spare star players and easier to make examples out of chumps or whatever rationale lies behind the wildly varying sentences. And because I'm feeling childish, I said 6 games first.
yay-yo, that play, "the outlet pass", happens dozens and dozens of times in every hockey game. Kaberle has no reason to be concerned at that point, seconds after he releases the pass. He has no reason to be worried that he's about to be hit because the only type of hit that could be thrown at that point is a dirty, filthy, punk, scrub, goon, blindside. Kaberle is an all-star defenseman with acute "Ice Awareness". Janssen is a dirty, filthy, punk, scrub, goon who hits people when they aren't looking and they're not involved in the play. To provide an contrasting example, Eric Lindros periodically skates with his head-down while involved in the play. When Stevens and/or Doig hit him, it's not crazy to call them good, clean hits. Blaming Kaberle for not being aware he was about to get cheap-shotted, on the other hand, is insane.
I'm sick of people saying Janssen was just "finishing his check" because he wasn't. Janssen's hit was an unwarrented, away from the play, blindside. Which, if you're a total non-skill player whose only upside is physical intimidation, is at the outer bounds of your definition of "finishing the check". If Kaberle falls a different way and is only so shaken up that he misses a couple of shifts, Janssen's coach is giving him the thumbs-up from across the rink: any team would gladly trade a 2-minute penalty kill for knocking the opponent's best defenceman off his game. I agree that the incident was ugly, unnecessary, and should not be a part of the game in any way. But I don't think the issue is simply how much of an undisciplined goon Janssen happens to be. This is a league-wide systemic issue with violence in the game, and it needs to be addressed seriously by the league on a greater scale. Something like grum's automatic suspension system would be a good start. (The debate about Simon's actions, on the other hand, IS a simple issue of how big an idiot Simon is. Nobody trained Simon to decapitate opponents.)
Kaberle has no reason to be concerned at that point, seconds after he releases the pass. He has no reason to be worried that he's about to be hit because the only type of hit that could be thrown at that point is a dirty, filthy, punk, scrub, goon, blindside. Not only that, but a hit on a player that is sans puck will, rightly, get you two minutes for interference.
It certainly should, but with a ref in the NHL, it depends on his mood, the stars, what he had for breakfast, the flow of the game, home/away, the score and a complicated algorithm known only to the NHL and their secret captured alien leader, Tragon the Magnificent. Okay, I made the last one up, but the rest is true.
The Janssen hit doesn't strike me as much worse than Chris Neil's hit on Drury: both very late, blind-side, with a shoulder pad straight to the chin. Neil wasn't even suspended. As for this stupidity by Simon, I'm going to go against the tide, and predict that the NHL will seize the occasion to make an example, and try to polish its image in the US. I foresee a one-year suspension for Simon, similar to what McSorley got.
The NHL announced they have suspended Simon indefinitely without pay pending a hearing. Sounds like the remainder of the year to me and rightfully so. He deserves no less for his dispecable and cowardly act.
He likes to refer to his stick as his "big tomohawk" and the opposing players as "the little scalps." Oddly enough, I was just explaining to my girl that, unlike in the movies like the aforementioned slap shot and the Rob Lowe debacle Youngblood, the stick isn't the weapon of choice for the NHL. Sure, to poke, hook, and annoy is serves a purpose for many, just ask Avery (got a lot of nerve questioning anyone's play.) But most players, given the nature of the typical NHLer, when faced with an affront, real or imagined, will drop both stick and gloves and duke it out like men. Swinging the stick is bush league junk that any pee-wee coach would bench a player for. The NHL would do well to remind its players of this by sitting Simon down for a long time.
I don't want to go through this again, but since qbert downplays the Janssen hit and compares it to Neil's hit, I have to. In my eyes Janssen's hit is far worse. Neil uses his shoulder on purpose, but the timing of the hit is well within accepted norms. If he had simply knocked Drury off his feet, it would be considered a great play. I think he should've been suspended under non-existent NHL guidelines that forbid intentional contact to the head, but apart from where he made contact on the hit, I don't see much wrong with the play. Drury passes/shoots the puck and continues toward the net. A hair late, but the location of the hit is the defining aspect for me. Janssen's hit is retardedly late, and miles away from the play. He doesn't connect as viciously, thank god, but he lunges upwards in an attempt to take Kaberle's head off. tahoe, those ethnic references are not welcome
Actually, I just re-watched it mutliple times, and Neil makes his move afte Drury releases the puck. I can't believe I failed to notice that until now. The hits are more alike than I had thought. Disgusting, especially since Neil condemned Janssen's actions this week.
As for this stupidity by Simon, I'm going to go against the tide, and predict that the NHL will seize the occasion to make an example, and try to polish its image in the US ...while covering up the concussion Cory Armstrong gave Brad Lukowich last night by means of a high elbow to the head. I'm not getting in the Cam debate, but thank you guys for the most intelligent discussion I have seen about it.
garfiels, get over it. Have you ever seen "Slap Shot"? That is a quote from a movie, nothing more, nothing less.
That hit was disgusting. The one thing I hate about the NHL (besides Gary Bettman) is that they don't come down hard enough when it comes to these incidents. Why Bertuzzi is still in the league after what he did to Steve Moore is beyond me (the fact that he is a Red Wing pisses me off to no end). Simon's hit was idiotic and down right dirty. I'd kick him out of the league but I will be in no way suprised if his sentence isn't even until the end of the season.
And speaking of ethnic terms, if I am going to be branded a racist for quoting the finest hockey movie ever. Am I the only one who remembers Simon being suspended years ago for calling Peter Worrell a "monkey?" Seriously, I thought the kind of people who would presume to enter a sports forum about hockey would recognize that reference.
Well, I'm too late to have much new to add, but: The Janssen hit and the Neil hit are both things that need to disappear from the NHL. Maybe it was cool to deliver a borderline late hit (not that Janssen's was even borderline) years ago, when NHL players were 4 inches shorter, 30 pounds lighter, and wore more forgiving padding. But now, it's just stupid. The fact that it's not totally illegal to hit anyone in the head at all at the speeds these dudes are travelling is stupid. The fact that there is no consistent punishment system is stupid. The simple fact that it's still valuable to have a talentless goon on your team speaks volumes about the mentality of the NHL. What do they do? Fight each other, injure talented players, fail to do anything exciting, and generally contribute nothing to the entertainment value of a game. I don't know about you, but I don't find it entertaining to watch barely-conscious all-star players get strapped to backboards while the dicks that hurt them try to look contrite on the bench.
Oh, and another thing: This whole movement to remove the instigator penalty "to protect the stars" is another example of the meathead mentailty that seems to be running this league. Instead of encouraging enforcers to fight to prevent other goons from hurting guys who will never fight, maybe they should try actually punishing the people who try to screw with the stars. Then maybe they should try making fighting illegal, like it is in every other team sport. Maybe the best way to get the cheap-shot goonery out of the game is to get the cheap-shot goons out of the game.
tahoe, I think it was Mike Grier and I think he said something worse than "monkey". And for what it's worth regarding the Slapshot reference, I didn't catch it either. I'm a hockey nut, it's just that it's been an awful long time since I've seen Slapshot. And I've killed a lot of brain cells in that time.
The Grier incident actually shows up in his Wickipedia entry, believe it or not, but I didn't remember it. I do distinctly remember Worrell accusing Simon of the slur, though. Maybe it was never addressed by the league. But in his own defense, Simon said (NO pun intended) that there was nothing racist intended by his remark, where he's from if someone acts like a monkey, you call them one. Uh huh. Well, since this thread began, the NHL has taken what would seem to be appropriate action against a thuggish, and apperently overtly racist, player. What's sad is that this guy was once a thirty goal scorer!
Okay, 29 goal scorer.
man this stuff continues in hockey because its a white boy sport had this sport that was majority blacks like say basketball or football everyone would have been up in arms years ago about the violence that occurs on the ice but hey all we here is that you guys who dont watch this dont understand i understand that swinging a helment at another man with a full armor suit on is not as bad as swinging a wooden stick at an unprotected body part especially someones head or neck
Well, I'm glad that's settled.
Did anyone else know luther had a brother? I'm always the last one to find these things out.
Punctuation is more overrated than...
... Cam Janssen's poetry?
Grum, what makes you think there will be specific suspension guidelines enacted this summer? I don't think they will enact specific guidelines, but I do believe the furor over the last two months will push them to enact SOMETHING. My guidelines should have been prefaced as "When I'm the NHL Czar". And speaking of ethnic terms, if I am going to be branded a racist for quoting the finest hockey movie ever. I don't know if you knew that Chris Simon is part Ojibwa, so references to "scalping" and "tomahawk" might be taken as potshots at Simon's ethnic heritage. i understand that swinging a helment at another man with a full armor suit on Huh?
I'll just explain this once more. There was a Native American character in that movie who was a goon. I felt that that quote was relative because this thread was discussing a Native American hockey player who is a goon. Wasn't meant to belittle anyone's heritage, simply thought the joke fit. If this was about a long haired glasses wearing goon, a Hansen reference would've been used. I didn't write the movie. It was appropriate during the Dontrelle Willis dogpile a few months back to throw out Blazing Saddles references fast and loose? That's somehow different than my insertion of a Jim Carr line from a hockey movie? It came from a movie...not from any beliefs about any ethnicity I may or may not hold. Am I clear?
crystal. tahoe, thanks for the explanation. I wasn't sure you were aware of Simon's heritage. I wouldn't have made the reference myself, but it definitely fits the circumstances. sorry for the inconvenience my comment has caused.
I guess the pitchforks and torches did get enough use recently to warrant not getting them out now.
They are going to have to bring the game into the 21st century.If they do it'll be even duller than it has become.Otherwise somebody is going to get killed out there.Then the politicos will get involved.
It was sick watching a guy trying to end another players career and possibly his life......he will get the rest of the year off including the playoffs......what was even sicker was watching the idiot Islander fans applauding Simon as he skated off the ice.......it says a lot about people today......
This guy is lucky he's getting just what the NHL is dealing out! If he does this off the ice he's sitting in jail. This whole scene is just not right. It's sportsmenship at it's worse. Bottom line is this is what's wrong in sports right now, there's no such thing as sportsmenship anymore. It's win at any cost!
Didn't Terrell Owens play hockey as a yout?
Far, far worse than the Bertuzzi incident.
If he does this off the ice he's sitting in jail. In fairness, you'd get jail time for a let of the non-penalty stuff in hockey. If I went up to somebody and body-checked them into a wall, sure as hell bet I'd be in trouble. It's not the injury or physical punishment aspect- it's going beyond normal means of the game which is at stake. Far, far worse than the Bertuzzi incident. I disagree. Simon's act appeared not to be premeditated. It seemed as if he was skating, say him, and was all, "OH, THIS IS MY CHANCE!" Bertuzzi, on the other hand, chased, IIRC, Moore around the rink and performed more than one blatant illegal/cheap shot. To me it's the difference between premeditated murder and manslaughter. One was thought out in advance; the other happened because it seemed like a brilliant idea at the time.
Bertuzzi struck Moore from behind with a gloved fist. Simon struck Hollweg in the face with his stick. It was bad luck that Moore subsequently broke his neck in the fall (incidentally, Bertuzzi did not drive him into the ice - their skates got tangled and they fell together). Without the broken neck, no one would have ever noticed the incident. Serious, no doubt, but a fluke compared to this incident, which is more on par with McSorley-Brashear or Suter-Kariya. None of which are as bad as the Green-Maki stickswinging fight.
It was bad luck that Moore subsequently broke his neck in the fall (incidentally, Bertuzzi did not drive him into the ice - their skates got tangled and they fell together). If you reach around and blind-side a guy with a punch (while holding on to his jersey while you were pulling him back for the punch) and knock him out before he has a chance to fall down, you should have to take the responsibility and blame of then driving his limp body into the ice head first while adding your own +200lb body to the equation, which breaks his neck in two places. Saying "But my skates got tangled up with his!" isn't going to fucking cut it.
as seen on espn.com Simon has been suspended indefinitely and their is a hearing on the incident tomorrow in Toronto. He may not attend, due to his suffering of concussion like symptoms from Hollweg's hit. Maybe he was knocked loopy and that was part of the reaction he had, but still no excuse and hopefully sits the rest of this year and some of next.
...suffering of concussion like symptoms from Hollweg's hit. Wow, next thing you know he'll be retaining Robert Shapiro for his defense, and some big-wig doctor to explain how he wasn't in the right frame of mind when the hit happened. Marty McSorley would be proud, Simon.
I am SO tired of people bitching when stuff like this happens. No, I don't mean bitching about the incident, I mean banging on about how people don't understand hockey, don't like it etc... Bullshit! I love hockey. Long before I moved to Canada, I loved hockey. It's a great, fast paced sport. I understand the sport. What makes me utterly sick is the fact that the league tolerates behaviour which would get your ass banned in any other sport. I'm sickened even more by fans who defend this sort of crap, and condemn it only because it gives people who supposedly don't like or understand the sport a reason to complain (i've noticed that is now the standard rallying cry of the hockey fan since the lockout ended. Methink they protest too much), and not the fact that the behaviour is utterly reprehensible. It's bloodlust, pure and simple. Don't try and dress it up anymore eloquently. I'm an MMA fan. I want to see guys punching each other. I enjoy a good bit of violence thank you very much. I really enjoy watching Crocop or Wanderlei absolutely annihilate someone. I'm quite happy to admit I like bloodsports. Hockey is not a bloodsport. I always used societal rules and laws when considering stuff like this. A bit of fisicuffs on a Friday night outside the pub... No big deal. Assault with a weapon outside the pub is something quite different. I mean for christs sake, I have here a tape I once bought, a tape that consists of nothing but hockey fights. So I'm hardly approaching this from sports traditionally seen as wussy pursuits, or someone who is against violence. I have no problem with a good throwdown fight between players, even though it still amazes me it's tolerated, unlike in any other sport, but if you think this incident was anything other than despicable, then I truly weep for the future of the sport.
I smell an opportunity for Vince McMahon. Let's revive the spirit of the XFL...gentlemen, start your engines...it's the XHL!
Wow, next thing you know he'll be retaining Robert Shapiro for his defense, and some big-wig doctor to explain how he wasn't in the right frame of mind when the hit happened. And if he can't play with his head on straight due to a semi-normal hit in the game which he'll surely encounter again, he really shouldn't be playing :)
The next guy he sees should be wearing a black robe and have a gavel in his hand. " Assualt with a deadly weapon." " How do you plead" Banned for life.
Ban him for life
Diastemic: Don't give the man ideas:) Besides, I don't think he's gotten over the XFL yet. Ironhead and Luther: Well said.
I like this XHL idea. I would pay to see this guy on skates. 
Chris Simon would wilt if he ever crossed paths with him...that...thing. And I'd pay to see it. Like, a buck or two.
That is the coolest animated gif ever! Ultimate Warrior having a seizure. WARRIOR IS FILLED WITH FIGHTICITY AND ANGERITUDE~!
What saddens me is that things like this are the only time the major sports outlets in the states give more than a cursory scoreboard-only look at the NHL. I'm with 86 and Weedy. This was a terrible shot, worse in intent than the Bertuzzi shot, and he better go down for a lot more than six games. But if the game was marketed better, incidents as PR-poisonous as this (which happen in every league, in every single sport. Every. Single. Sport.) wouldn't be nearly as hand-wringingly dire for the NHL. They'd happen, Colin Campbell would bring a hammer down, and people would move on and see actual highlights and the odd player profile, instead of only noticing the sport when it gets a black eye. In the States, this is a big deal. ESPN especially is systematically ghettoizing the NHL with its coverage these days, since they bought into Arena Football, a sport that didn't even exist 20 years ago. (Pooh-pooh ESPN all you want, but they are the Worldwide Leader, and for most of the USA, they're the only real game in town.) So 86, you're actually right on the money with your ramble. The NHL needs a better marketing campaign, and has for decades. The lack of one (and that falls squarely at the Commissioner's feet) is a travesty. Until then, shit like this will look a lot worse to the rest of the sporting world than it is. And it is bad.
At least up here in Canada hockey is treated with respect. But sadly, the old axiom "if it bleeds, it leads" is still tryue. Of course it's going to get more attention when something bad happens. Same with my first love, motor racing. It gets a cursory mention after everything else, but if someone is killed, it moves the story up. And yes, a marketing campaign would be a good idea. I mean you've got the NHL deal with Google Video which is a great idea, but A) The games are about three weeks behind, and B) I'm willing to bet some people reading this don't even know about it. Hockey could very well set itself up as the sport of the future. Go all out with online coverage. I mean I'd probably follow hockey a lot closer if they launched something akin to MLB.TV, but hockey is in such disrepair, they couldn't charge anywhere near what MLB do. I don't know. It's all very sad.
Simon has been suspended for the rest of the season.
That's his SIXTH suspension according to the article. Jesus!
Two words sum it up, ugly, and disgusting.
I don't think it's worse than Bertuzzi. Not at all. Bertuzzi had planned to get Moore for weeks. Simon's was a crime of passion. Heat of the moment. Inexcusable and certainly worthy of the suspension - but not the same degree of specific career-ending stuff like Bertuzzi. Very different 'Mens Rea' if you catch me. And I thought given the stick-swinging style of the infraction. The Slap Shot quote was eniterly appropriate. So there.
I disagree, Mr. McSmokey... Punching and tackling someone from behind isn't the best thing to do, but who would have thought it would break a neck? Taking the premeditation into account, the end-result is still what makes the Bertuzzi so horrible. Swinging a stick two-handed is the worst thing you could do short of taking off your skate and cutting somebody. Heat-of-the-moment or no, it is the worst possible thing you can do. Say Simon hit lower on Hollweg and caught him in the throat, then what? Yeah, it's a hypothetical, but the intent should be what's looked at rather than the result.
I'm glad he got more than 6 games. But can someone explain to me how Emery only got three games? Emery looks just as lost in the moment as Simon. The two acts are far too similar in my mind. How can punishment be used as a deterrent when players can gamble that it won't be that severe? A little consistency is all I ask.
Say Simon hit lower on Hollweg and caught him in the throat, then what? Yeah, it's a hypothetical, but the intent should be what's looked at rather than the result. I agree. Intent is important. But the result is equally important. You can't suspend someone for trying to do something. They actually have to do it. I see it as a "Actus Reus/Mens Rea" situation. But, let's compare the incidents in two other ways: 1. Simon hit the first person that he saw. He didn't hunt out Hollweg specifically. That's not frontier justice - that's a crime in the heat of the moment. The ol' temporary insanity. Bert planned to hunt Moore down many nights prior - waited until the end of the game and snuck up behind Moore. Out of control vs. completely in control. I think that matters. 2. Simon actually got hit. He was boarded. So he suffered an indignation and he retaliated. Bertuzzi was never touched by anyone on the Avalanche. He went after Moore purposefully. I think that matters. Intent is only so much of the game, though. I don't think you can ignore the fact that Bertuzzi ended Moore's career. That matters. I think we'll see Hollweg again. Swinging a stick two-handed is the worst thing you could do short of taking off your skate and cutting somebody. Heat-of-the-moment or no, it is the worst possible thing you can do. I dunno. It seems that running up behind them - punching them and falling on them can do some pretty serious damage too, no? I'll agree that swinging the stick LOOKS far worse, though. And that's part of the issue, isn't it?
I see it as a "Actus Reus/Mens Rea" situation. Isn't that when a priest diddles a kid?
Naw. But a topical zinc cream will at least reduce the swelling.
Thats Simon's 6th career suspension. I agree that the suspension should be longer.
coke addict whose coach was black balled from the league-boo hoo-
cavwa: what the hell are you talking about?
