jojo doesn't understand paraphrasing obviously. Secondly, if I play for you and you pull me and then upchuck me on the chin then sit me you are reprimanding me! I guess a frightened college age kid who didn't even have his mothers backing might cover for his physically abusive coach. Lastly, jojo also has a case of mind readingitis, "Knight wanted to see it in his eyes if he had it in him to pull out of it or not". Sounds like a clear case of mind-reading of B. Knight to me. I believe I counted at least six lip suction marks on B. Knights behind from jojo!
jojo, you have missed my point(s): let me see if i can clarify for you. 1. "Look at your daddy in the eye." I was making that reference based on a similar comment above. I was speaking against a prevailing attitude we have in sports today, which is that players respond to in your face confrontation, whether it be a positive comment "don't be afraid to make a mistake," or a negative comment, like "what the *&^% were you thinking." Some don't. In fact, that often makes things worse for a player. Which brings me to the whole point of my original post: It is not always okay to do this, regardless of a coach's intentions, b/c some players find it disrespctful and downright wrong. I was trying to speak out against what seemed to be a major opinion in this forum that this was okay and a non-issue. My only point here was to say that even though it deemed appropriate by this player, it isn't always (and incidentally hasn't always been for Knight's) players. All i am trying to communicate is that while this time it wasn't a big issue (i agree with you), it has been before and will be again. Situations like these are rarely if ever so black and white as this one, and i am a bit shocked to get the impression that many (not all) here think that they are. I hope i make more sense to you now. 2. "Reprimand": an act or expression of criticism and censure (emphasis mine). Yes i am sure that the exact word reprimand wasn't used, but how does that prove that the kid wasn't "criticized" for not having confidence? If there wasn't anything to criticze or "reprimand" the player for, then why encourage him? I think that you're allowing the usual negative association with the word trip you up in regards to what i'm saying. Hopefully you'll see that i am in agreement with you about Knight's intentions (for the record, i am don't think he meant any harm in his words or actions, but as i hope you see now, that is not always the point.) 3. Knight wanted to see it in his eyes if he had it in him to pull out of it or not. Oh wait, isn't that part of his job? Yes and no. Yes, his job is to encourage his players, demand excellence, and to put the best team on the floor to win. However, i have never heard of a "chin-flipping" section of a coach's job description. He is to produce men and a winning club within certain boundaries that are set by his players. Obviously this kid doesn't have a problem with Knight's approach, and that is great. Like i said before: to each his own. All i was noting was that these issues aren't always as simple as this one. Ask some of Knight's other players: maybe they will disagree with some who have suggested that this is always a non-issue.
I agree that this isn't a major deal, but for different reasons. Knight's become little more than a joke, and any school that hires him deserves what they get. Any kid that decides to play for him also deserves what he gets. That said, I love the "If it were any other coach..." line. Knight made his living off being an ass. So when he's an ass it will be a story. If he doesn't like that than he shouldn't have made his living by being an ass. Likely, If it were any other coach it would be a huge story.
I believe I counted at least six lip suction marks on B. Knights behind from jojo! What are you doing lookin' at Knight's ass? Knight's become little more than a joke Yep, he has completely forgotten how to coach, ask all his peers... If you have never had a coach like Bob I sorta feel sorry for you, and if you did and couldn't handle it, then you probably weren't any good anyway.
If you needed a coach like Knight I feel sorry for you.
The players that hate Bobby Knight and his methods are few and hard to find, Larry Bird even transfered to Indiana State to escape. The bottom line is he runs his team with strict discipline, something that is missing from most organized sports where egos seem to rule supreme. Knight is going to have the most wins in NCAA history, he graduates OVER 90% of his players AND wins, he is a throw back to th 70's perhaps, but not a joke.
If you have never had a coach like Bob I sorta feel sorry for you Seriously, what is amateur athletics without a coach waving poop in your face to motivate you?
Ha! If you were so offended by the "poop" that you missed his point, well, tough "poop".
I guess it is tough for people to dome the concept of "the team played badly" without actually seeing some poop that represents their play. Fair enough.
I'm gettin' out after this, but Venice, Bob meant the team played liked shit, and not mincing words is one of the things some of us like about him.
Granted, on the Knight-assholery scale, this was prety low, but I'd really be happy to see the day when he picks the wrong kid, or university administrator, or cop, or anyone, on whom to use his "teaching methods."
For the school Bobby Knight brings wins. Wins attract a heightened quality of recruits. Better recruits translates into even more wins and earns more money. The bottom line has been the most important thing to schools when it come to college sports for quite some time. Once Knight becomes a liability it'll be Indiana all over again. If the bottom line was about the character development of the players, Knight would be fired and would never coach again unless he admits his wrongdoing and redeems himself. That would have happened a long time ago. In and of itself the chin slap was no big deal. But, Bobby Knight doesn't care about rules and authority. He knows why he is the coach. He's there to win PERIOD. And, he is good at it. Perhaps, one of the greatest "coaches" ever if the criteria is simply basketball and winning. There's more to life than winning though.
There's more to life than winning though. Hey ChiefsSuperFan, Your opinion is solely based on what the media has fed you. Knight puts education FIRST on his teams, if you don't go to class, you don't play. He is about changing these players into men, and holds them accountable. I am not defending the history of his actions, he is a short fuse ass, but his motivation has never been wins, do more homework.
If you're right Savanx then I stand corrected. Unfortunately his "short fuse" (which I think is too nice a way to put it) demonstrates a poor example for the collegians under him. His conduct doesn't work in the real world.
and not mincing words is one of the things some of us like about him Yeah, but there is a huge difference between saying "the team played like shit!" (not mincing words) and waving around a shit-covered bunch of TP. I don't think the chin-tap is worth making a federal case about. I'm just saying that you don't *need* a guy like Knight to develop as an athlete and as a man. Maybe some people do, but a lot of others don't. He brings a lot to the table in terms of leadership, but his outbursts and over-the-line antics also indicate a lack of maturity, in my opinion. John Wooden didn't need to flip out to get through to his players.
I find all the Knight-bashing comical. Just viewing the incident should have made folks realize this was a non-issue. The comments made by the school, parents, and player should have absolutely made the story instantly disappear. But, nope ... instead, we've got people calling one of the most postively influential people of basketball history calling him "little more than a joke" (SummersEve - this might be the first time I've ever disagreed with any of your posts, but we're far apart on this one). And comments like "If the bottom line was about the character development of the players, Knight would be fired and would never coach again" ... it might help if folks did a little boning up about Knight and what he's meant to the players and programs with which he's been involved. No doubt Texas Tech was hoping for an increase in wins and visbility by hiring Knight, but I would bet a lot of money that they also factored in wanting to strengthen the character development of its students athletes when they hired him. (on preview, I'm in line with Savanx) There's more to life than winning though. Although you didn't intend it this way - you couldn't have made stronger pro-Knight argument than this.
Bobby knight is a dam good coach. anyone that signed on at Tex Tech knew when they got there what they were in for and probably wanted the chance to play for a coach like that. HE PRODUCES and he does it his way. He wins games and Graduates one of the highest percetages of his players in the NCAA. He is the Bill Parcelles of his sport. He DEMANDS your best. That being said, I am a football coach and see things go one at varsity and even 9th grade practices and games that would be considered worse than what happened in that game. I also understand wanting to see your players eyes. You can look a player in the eyes and tell when he is beat mentally. You can see fear, hesitation and belief in a players eyes. someone who just committed two quick fouls may go "in the tank" when pulled and you can tell by looking in a players eyes if he is beat or fired up and wants another shot. Everyone should have a coach or at least a person in their lives like Coach Knight. Someone like that allows you to realize what type of person you really are. Has he been out of line before? maybe, but i bet every player he has ever had learned a great deal form the man. He is a leader and he shapes men into something more. HERE"S TO YOU COACH KNIGHT
littleLebowski - You're right. I went overboard saying he's a joke. I think he's become a bit of a caricature of himself, and I would never treat my kids like he treats kids, but to each his own. I'll have what Jon Saraceno's having.
I don't like Bobby Knights personal style, and I would not want to hang with him for very long. But, one thing you can say, the man cares about his kids, and as the parent of a college athlete and as someone that is involved at a certain level with college baseball and knowing many college coaches, to have a coach that truly cares about your kid is sort of unusual. Not unheard of by any means, but you could do a lot worse than Bob Knight as a coach for your student athlete regardless of his personality, style, politics, or whatever. Sometimes a little tough love is in order for kids to excel, and that is why they go play for him, because they want to excel. He takes it a little far sometimes, and he isn't perfect, but what situation is ALL good?
"I flipped his chin up and told him to look me right in the eye so he could do the job we want. I said, 'Can you?' And he said 'Yes,' and I said, 'OK, sit down and let's go.' If that's an issue then I'm living in the wrong country," Knight said. Well donrico what else was he looking into his eyes for then?
We'll just disagree on this one, SummersEve. I wouldn't handle my own kids the way he handles his players, so I can somewhat see where you're coming from. But, I would absolutely have my kid play for him. If there's no reason for discipline or stern "life lessons", he still gets the benefit of a great coach and strong leader. But, as well as I hope I raise my kids, I expect there will be times where they step out of line (especially when they're out of my control - as kids are sometimes naturally known to do). In that case, whether it be to raise self-esteem or to instill an extra sense of discipline from a different perspective than I can provide as a parent, then I'm OK with that. He certainly doesn't have a blank check to abuse my kid, but his tactics, particularly this one are within the realm of what I'd allow.
If you have never had a coach like Bob I sorta feel sorry for you, and if you did and couldn't handle it, then you probably weren't any good anyway. I'll 2nd that! The man cares and his players graduate. What more could you ask for? He has a short fuse, but we already knew that. Has he ever hurt a player? No. If any other coach in the Nation tried that with one of his players, he would probably get knocked out. Knight demands respect and he gets it.
ya! ya! yay yo. You said it!!
There's a little duality going on here that I think would make Descarte proud. On one hand you have an undeniably successful coach who knows the game as well as anyone, and graduates players better than almost anyone - as you pro-Knight people have so amiably pointed-out. On the other you have a guy who is a poster boy for bullying. Knight is a classic bully. Some of you choose to see that as being more important than the numbers, while some of you seem to adopt the ends justifying the means. For my money - the ends almost never justify the means. Knight, while being an example of a specific success, is also exemplary for being a very specific failure: Getting fired despite being the most successful coach in Indiana history, for behaviour that deserves no respect at all.
Duality? How about a third possibility: that the guy may well fit the definition of a bully, but that this wasn't bullying. It doesn't sound like it to me, and that being the case, I don't see where you're justified in getting in an uproar. If you've got a problem with his past behavior, you never should have given him a job in the first place; if you were okay with it and went ahead, then don't be taking him out back behind the barn now for stuff he did then.
CASE SOLVED! When the Kid and The Parents say there is nothing wrong with it why Get on Knights Case? The Media makes the sitution alot worse.
Knight makes you step up your game. The players know what they are getting into when they play on Knights Court. They had a choice, go to another school if you don't like him! Deal with It!
Ideally, every coach in the country would be able to adapt his or her approach to every player according to the needs and desires of the individual (and what the players WANTS would also produce the most desirable outcome). In reality, coaches have their own styles and approaches and they vary from easy going to the strictest of task masters. You can point to successes in any of the categories, but by the time a coach reaches the heights of success, every one of the recruits know what they're getting into before they ever sign that letter of intent. As coaches go, Bobby Knight is an Alpha drill sergeant, and everyone knows it. If you're a "Don't touch me, just talk nice and persuade me" type of player, you don't agree to play for that man. On the other hand, if you want a coach who will ride you until he's convinced that he's getting your very best, he's your guy. It's common sense, and it sounds like Prince was treated exactly as he expected to be. Knight is a tough, crusty, grumpy SOB. He's not cuddly and loveable. He is, however, a great coach. His passions have gotten the better of him in the past, but that isn't the case here. It's much ado about nothing.
Give the guy a break. As an OSU fan I got a bellyfull of him during his time at Indiana and saw some really stupid behavior. Throwing chairs...etc.... The man was just coaching trying to get a players attention, just ask the player! The media should devote more attn to OSU/mich football, I have seen so little in the news about it as of late!
With Knight's history of "anger management issues" its no surprise that this gesture has been viewed in a more violent light than the article plays it off to be. I believe that Knight probably does have the best interests of the player's at heart...its too much work to be involved in college athletics if you are not doing it for the sport or the players...but I think there are more effective ways to communicate with your team. You can demand respect without ever laying a hand on players or by verbally berrating them.
Jimbloomberg, not everyone can be a Dr. Phil or a Tony Robbins, motivating those around them through "feelgoodism" and the power of positive thinking. Knight's style is to get excellence through discipline and a refusal to accept substandard effort. It works well for him, and every one of his players know what his program is all about. They choose to play for him and accept his approach willingly. Could another coach have reached Prince in a gentler fashion? Probably. Would it be as effective? Maybe. Could Knight pull off the same approach? No. Plain and simple. It's not in his nature. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't coach, or that he should scrap methods that have worked for years just because they're not always pleasant. Earlier, I compared Knight to a drill instructor. If Prince had actually joined the military instead of the basketball team, a similar incident with a DI wouldn't have made anyone bat an eyelash. Knight runs a tough, disciplined program, and his players expect it. They choose to be there and to participate, knowing full well that they'll get chewed on occasionally. Apparently, they feel that the discipline and knowledge that they'll get from the program is worth a little unpleasantness. According to all accounts, nobody who was actually involved in the incident had any problem with it. Would it be nice if he was more like Coach K or Jimmy V? Yeah, but he's not. His way works, for him, his shool, and his players. We don't have to like the guy, and I don't, but he's being sniped at for his reputation, not for what he did this time. I guess that just doesn't sit well with me.
We'll just have to wait for the next time he acts like the type-A jerk he's always been, which should be the next time he encounters a university administrator or someone who doesn't use the honorific before his name...
In truth, I really don't see very much outrage about the Prince incident on this thread. I'm sure some of the usual suspects in the media are all over this, but what do you expect? People enjoy these familiar themes; just witness the number of posts on these Bobby Knight, TO, "Political Correctness" threads. Outnumbering the "Knight is a jerk" comments here are those that suggest that Knight's methods are superior to those of other coaches, whose style ctal describes as "Dr. Phil or a Tony Robbins, motivating those around them through "feelgoodism" and the power of positive thinking". Or those that claim that people who haven't had Knight-esque coaches are somehow disadvantaged by missing out on this experience. That players who do better when they aren't being screamed at or physically jarred to attention are soft. Those statements, rather than this incident, are what moves me to comment. I think these assertions make a fundamental error - they confuse Knight's weaknesses for his strengths. His strengths are basketball knowledge, a love of the game, investment in and care for his players, a demand for high standards, and an unwavering commitment to academics. His weaknesses are the screaming and hysterics. The first set of attributes make him a great coach, the second set have earned him an odious reputation. Obviously, Knight is who he is, but to me, he would be a better coach if he could lay off the outbursts.
Just out of curiosity, how many times did Dean Smith have to smack a kid in the face, or choke one on the practice court, or show his ass in an airplane window as he was leaving a tournament? How many times has Mike Krzyzewski cursed at reporters in a news conference? How about Roy Williams and his infamous chair-throwing incident, or the time he pounded his shoe on the scorers' table, screaming obscenities at the game officials the whole time? Didn't those coaches win National Championships, too, without all the drama queen crap? Face it: Knight is an asshole, and always will be, because he's allowed to be by people just like the ones in this thread, who enable his boorish behavior because he's won three NCAA championships, the last of which was nearly twenty years ago. I understand the propensity to ignore the stupid stuff your coach and/or players do, because they're your boys, but damn, is there no limit?
Well put, and nice links TBH. Knight's an asshole. Aways has been, always will be.
When the Kid and The Parents say there is nothing wrong with it why Get on Knights Case? The Media makes the sitution alot worse. Yes, the media is at fault here. Also, what's your opinion on domestic violence incidents when the spouse drops the charges? Case closed?
(on preview - thanks for the chuckle provided by comparing this to domestic violence) It still amuses me that: - folks refuse to grasp and/or accept that different coaches have different styles (salesman have different ways of selling, doctors have different bedside manners, ...). If the parties involved (parents, student athletes, college administrators, ...) didn't find benefit to the body of work that Knight brings to the table, he would've been forced to find another occupation long ago - anyone (except for his current employer) should demand (and expect him to comply) that he coach and act the want you want him to. Knight's an asshole. Aways has been, always will be. Then, don't root for his team(s), don't send your kid to play for him, and don't send him a Christmas card.
"when my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are past, I want that they should bury me upside down so my critics can kiss my ass." Best Bob Knight quote ever. Some others.
Then, don't root for his team(s), don't send your kid to play for him, and don't send him a Christmas card. Thanks for the advise, I was just filling out the card too.
Best Bob Knight quote ever. Yeah, but terrible meter. Don't quit your day job, Bob.
Venice, I wasn't putting down coaches who have a gentler approach than Knight when I compared them to Tony Robbins. Robbins has become filthy rich by motivating people, generally by positive reinforcement. His system works for a lot of people. Others don't respond to it at all. Still others are somewhere in the middle, and need an occasional kick in the pants to go along with the pats on the head. I don't think there's a coach out there that doesn't use some of both. Some use more carrot, others more stick. Kids who need structure and discipline tend to benefit from the more stick system. Without a doubt, that's what Knight provides, but there is a place for it and once the kids in his program start to see it paying dividends, they generally end up on board 100%.
I have no problem with stressing the stick over the carrot, but I prefer the model provided by Knight's good buddy, Bill Parcells. I'm sure you didn't mean to dis coaches who stress positive reinforcement, but I don't think any college basketball coach would take it as a compliment if you compared his style to Dr. Phil or Tony Robbins.
You're right about that VM. I probably took that reference a little too far, especially with the DR. Phil portion.
