If Mirer's really the worst, I wish he were still playing for Notre Dame.
On the last page of the linked article, "A Last Look At Quarterbacks" the author writes: "That sets the stage for what I promised yesterday: the list of the greatest Qb's of all time. " (This list includes QB's who played significant amounts of time in the 1960's) The stats he uses are cumulative, (and obviously do not take winning into consideration at all) so I will only make comparisms for those QB's already retired. Notable quirks: For Oakland, QB Daryle Lamonica is on the list, Kenny Stabler is not; for St. Louis, Neil Lomax made the list, Jim Hart did not. Cowboys:Don Meredith is rated above Troy Aikman; Steelers:Neil O'Donnell is rated above Terry Bradshaw, NYJ: Ken O'Brien is rated above Joe Namath, and Jeff George is rated higher than Super Bowl winners Bradshaw, Aikman, Namath, and Joe Theisman. His list of worst includes George Blanda, who was so crappy he only lasted 26 years in the pros and won awards too many to list here; Jack Kemp, who was All-AFL 7 times, won back to back AFL championships, and the AFL MVP award; Frank Tripuka, member of the Denver Broncos Ring of Honor, and a stalwart on some truly hideous teams;and Dan Pastorini, who was as tough in the pocket as anyone I have ever seen, and who played with, at different times, broken ribs, a punctured lung, a broken leg, and the worst team in the history of football, the Houston Oilers of the early 1970's, whom he took to consecutive AFC championships at the end of the decade. I wholeheartedly concur with hoglegs69's assertion that the authors lists are a "pretty subjective determination devised by an apparent accountant."
My spiel for Pastorini should have read "consecutive AFC championship games at the end of the decade."
"you forgot Jeff Hostetler" Ah, Hostetler. I still vividly remember the sheer unadulterated terror in his eyes every time he lined up under center.
"This FPP mis-represents the article. This is not determing the worst quarterback of all time, but determining the worst *career* of all time." I misrepresent an article called "The worst QB of all time?" by leading the FPP with "Rick Mirer : is the worst quarterback of all time*"? Oh, I'm sorry. I could have couched the FPP with "in the opinion of X, taking into account type of stats Y, Rick Mirer is the worst quarterback since 1970 to have any sort of extended career" but that's unwieldy, less impactful and, y'know, I thought people might read the articles and dicsuss them and their findings in the context of it. Yes Blanda lasted 26 years in the league but as the article states his 1962 (42 interceptions) and 1965 (42% completions, 30 interceptions) are, under the system used, the third and sixth worst of all time. I think we all know that you can't sit down, look at a line of numbers and say "this guy is better than this guy", especially at quarterback, and the game would be poorer if you could, but I was hoping that, as we all know that, (don't we), we could generate some discussion instead of "where is [Quarterback name]!!!1 Oh, there he is, on the third link." In other news, did YYM just call Terrapin "Chico?"
I misrepresent an article called "The worst QB of all time?" by leading the FPP with "Rick Mirer : is the worst quarterback of all time*"? yeah i guess i can't blame you - but in the article itself the author restipulates what he's writing about when he says: So when I say "worst QB of all time", what I really mean is "since 1970, the QB that, according to a straight statistical analysis, most disadvantaged the team(s) he played for throughout his career." But even that definition is contentious, this article is just begging for further breakdowns per season - per game, hell even per pass attempt, all of which would yield data more interesting/insightful to the original claim of the article.
I have a real problem with using this statistic, because it clearly penalizes QBs that had longer careers. Now if you take a ratio to Leaf and Dilfer, assuming that Leaf would have continued down that same path, you can clearly see how much worse Leaf was. If Leaf were given Dilfer's 2952 attempts his score could have been a -7747 compared to -1719 for Dilfer. Given that do you still think the author of the article would pick Leaf over Dilfer?
I like what the guy is trying to do with the adjusted yards per average thing-equalize stats from different eras, which is a nearly impossible. And I agree that the article isn't who is the worst as much as who had a season and career that single handedly hurt their team the most. But his analysis, while fascinating, comes up a litle hollow. Incidentally, this thread has inevitably become an argument how bad Ryan Leaf was.
In other news, did YYM just call Terrapin "Chico?" Yes....I did. I don't know why but it happened. I've done stuff like that before. I must be going insane.
If we hadn't pissed off Grum, he could have come up with one of his formulas and fixed this for us.
Any system that rates Jeff George as a better QB than Troy Aikman or Big Ben has some major flaws in it lol. Fun read though.
Using only stats to compare QB's of the same era, much less different era's, is difficult at best, much harder than, say, doing the same with baseball pitchers, but, if the author were to call this a list of "most efficient/proficient passers, statistically", I would not have much of a problem with it at all.
Ah, Hostetler. I still vividly remember the sheer unadulterated terror in his eyes every time he lined up under center. The quivering little mustache didn't really help his tough-guy look, either.
I doubt that terror is what you saw in his eyes. Jeff had as good a 5 game run as any backup QB ever had, (except maybe Earl Morral) and was a Pro-Bowler with the Raiders one season as well. Perhaps focus is the word you were searching for?
two words DAVID KLINGLER worst nfl player ever
That's eight words.
Ah, Chico, YYM was looking for you. Meanwhile David "Two Words" Klingler's career passer rating was 65. Admittedly he was a terrible first round bust, but when I thought about first round busts, the first one to come to mind, (Ryan Leaf aside, of course), was Todd Blackledge, who the Chiefs picked when Marino was still on the board. So, having checked, I'm relieved to see Blackledge sitting in the chart, at 26. This comment attached to the third article states why Elway suffers under this system of rating.
I'm new at this, but wouldn't a simple attemptscompletions, touchdownsinterceptions, total yards passingrushing, winslosses be a better metric? Oh, and hairno hair.
Oh, and hairno hair. You got Y.A. Tittle & Terry Bradshaw proving one side of that equation wrong, and Jeff George & Joey Harrington shooting down the other. Best, Chico "The White Wilbon" Bangs.
Y.A. Tittle. One of the best, in one of the best sports photos, ever.
Ah, Chico, YYM was looking for you. You really don't want to let that go do you?
One of the best, in one of the best sports photos, ever. Are you sure that isn't Captain Picard?
I have Troy Aikman as the best quarterback ever, for several reasons. 1) Three Super Bowl wins, 2) won more games in the 90's than any other QB in any decade. 3) he was not in a system to rack up the yards, he was in a system to win. keep in mind he had one of the best running backs ever in the backfield, who got a lot of carries a game. so take out Emmitt, put in an average QB, and put Aikman in a system to get stats and there will be no doubt in anyones mind that he is the greatest QB of all time.
No arguing with facts.
so take out Emmitt, put in an average QB, and put Aikman in a system to get stats and there will be no doubt in anyones mind that he is the greatest QB of all time. Not only was that post authentic frontier gibberish, but it expresses a courage little seen in this day and age! So, are you saying Aikman is a great quarterback, or just played under a great system with the one of the best running backs in history? I'm just askin'.
I think Troy was great, (spoken as a lifetime Cowboys fan) but I give Elway the edge for several reasons, namely 1) 5 SB appearances, 2 wins 2) He was not in a system to rack up the yards either, he labored under Dan Reeves' conservative play calling for years, with very average RB's and receivers, and always had an undersized O-line in front of him 3) No one was more dangerous when the play was broken than John, and no one could beat John's ability to make any throw on the field 4) his propensity for 4th quarter comebacks is legendary for good reason 5) All-Time leader in wins 6)Longevity 7) If we are gonna throw in what-if's, I say give John Troy's supporting cast (Emmitt, Irvin, and one of the best offensive lines ever assembled) and lets figger what John may have done. Tom Brady's numbers may not look too good this year, because of an inexperienced receiving corps, but what he has done since becoming the starter in N.E. boggles the mind, and that hoss up in Pittsburgh looks very good to me, too.
No arguing with facts. If that were true, then this site would immediately cease to exist.
mjkredliner makes some really good points, and i agree that john elway should be at the very least number 3 on most peoples lists. but living in fort worth (for those unfamiliar with texas it is right next to dallas) my entire life and the family in which i grew up has left me with a major bias toward troy. because of this bias, there is no amount of reasoning that could ever persuade me to change my opinion. this is the same bias that makes me think emmitt was better than the likes of Jim brown, walter peyton, and barry sanders.
In other words, you're a shameless homer who refuses to acknowledge facts or reasonable argument. Good to know.
Life sucks when the best quarterback in Detroit since Bobby Layne was Scott Mitchel. YYM, Greg Landry wasn't too shabby (in fact, he was very good), but the Dallas Morning News' Jean-Jacques Taylor draws the same comparism as you in this neat lil deal about Aikman.
