Don't forget that the Globe is owned by the New York Times, rcade.
I'm sure all teams could list 7 or 8 names and say they are real major league prospects . . . I just don't get your point here. Those are 7 or 8 people that could be contributing next year. Hanley Ramirez is a bit of a question mark (and may actually pre-date Theo, I can't remember). I was using them as a sort of synecdoche for the work Theo's group did on the minor leagues in general. When he took over, no one could have named 7 or 8 guys who would be contributing ever, much less in a year or two.
He said I was caused some problems in the front office and my response was simply, "Who the hell is reading the Pawtucket Times in the Red Sox front office?" and Bailey explained that any and all stories written about any of the minor league teams were printed out and placed on the desks of numerous front-office employees including Epstein.
Jeff Sullivan, a former Globe writer. Provides some very good inside information. On preview:
How can anyone trust the Globe coverage of the Sox? Don't forget that the Globe is owned by the New York Times Take a look at the story I just linked: two Globe higher-ups received Series rings last year. Shaugnessy got his daughter an internship with Tom Werner's production company. Pay no attention to the humping behind the curtain, Sox fans!
Farm systems for the top payroll teams such as the Yankees and Red Sox are not even an issue. If either team has one serious, serious impact player per year from their farm teams, that's a lot. The big money these teams make mean "Win Now," and developing a lot of young players isn't their way. It's all about signing experienced players with big league credentials each off-season (even though some of these signings, obviously, don't work out. People are always trying to tell me the Yankees have no future because their farm system is so weak. So what? Where's the big news flash with that? Same with the Sox. The guys yerfatma mentions contributed, some more than others, but the Sox will be right in the thick of trying to sign or pick up any (supposed) big names that are available this off season. As for Epstein, it's too bad, actually, because he really seems to love the game and the Sox. But pressure only gets worse after a team wins a championship, then doens't repeat. Some can handle it (Cashman), some run away quickly.
It's all about signing experienced players with big league credentials each off-season (even though some of these signings, obviously, don't work out. People are always trying to tell me the Yankees have no future because their farm system is so weak. So what? Where's the big news flash with that?[)] Except that's a parasitic practice that will result in a downturn. Not all of those big name signings are free agents. Some have to be acquired through trades. Sooner or later you wind up with no one left to trade and the organization undergoes a "rebuilding". This is seen as a normal part of the organizational life-cycle (I think the Yankees will be entering this phase next year or the year after), but Theo and other New Guard GMs were/ are trying to plan around it, to minimize the depth of troughs teams go through. The approach you mention was not how the Yankees succeeded in the 90s. What happened to all the Yankees fans crowing (rightly so) about their home-grown talent? In a perfectly competitive league, the luck/ injury factors alone would be enough to force this up-and-down cycle on teams. But MLB is not even close to a perfectly competitive league. Major market teams like the Sox should be able to buy talent from smaller teams and spend dollars on their own farm system at the same time. That's the proper recipe for staying competitive across cycles.
I agree with that, yerfatma. It's not a practice I like, but one that continues. Often, judging minor league "talent" is very, very subjective. A few players here or there that start to blossom throughout any minor league system may pay huge dividends, but that still won't equate to a overall "strong" farm system. Also, the scouting teams do of players from A, AA and, to some extent, AAA ball can bring some minor league talent to teams such as the Yankees who initially seem to only be add-ons in certain bigger deals. Often these throw-ins end up being critical to the team's success (A. Small), even though they never really figured in the team's farm system "strength."
Y'all shouldn't be too quick to dis the Yankees farm system.Check this out. Posada - drafted by NYY in 1990 Tino Martinez - Traded to Yankees in 1995 for: Russ Davis, drafted by NYY in 1988, and Sterling Hitchcock, drafted by NYY in 1989 Cano - signed by NYY as amateur free agent ARod - Acquired (along with cash) for: Alfonso Soriano, signed by NYY as amateur free agent Jeter - drafted by NYY in 1992 Matsui - free agent via Japan Williams - signed by NYY as amateur free agent in 1985 Sheffield - free agent Giambi - free agent Others of note: Nick Johnson - drafted by NYY in 1996 Juan Rivera - signed by NYY as amateur free agent in 1996 Randy Chote - drafted by NYY in 1997 These three original Yankees were traded for Javier Vazquez in 1993 Brad Halsey - drafted by NYY in 2002 Dioner Navarro - signed by NYY as amateur free agent in 2000 These two, along with Vazquez, were traded for Randy Johnson When Tino Martinez returned to NY as a backup 1st baseman, it was as a free agent. Yes, the Yankees have their share of free agents, but the backbone of their team either came from their minor league system, or their minor league prospects were traded for quality (hopefully) ballplayers.
ooops, I meant Vazquez in 2003, not 1993.
Y'all shouldn't be too quick to dis the Yankees farm system.Check this out. Y'all shouldn't be so quick to comment. The Yankees farm system powered their terrific run in the 90s, but it's dried up now, mainly due to all the trades you referenced.
How do we know that it's dried up? Their position players were all set last year, so no minor leaguers were called up (with the Cano exception, of course). Their starting pitching was devistated, so they went to their system and called up Wang and Small. This was good enough to win their division, albeit by a small margin. I don't know that their farm is dried up, and neither do you.
you can't label Small as being part of the Yankees farm system. he was just a lucky NRI pick-up.
Small and Chacon are actaully good examples of why the Yankees have a poor minor league system - as they had to snag these two journeymen because they had nothing beyond Wang in the minors. It's an indictment of their current woes, not an example of their current strength.
As I said before, a "strong" minor league system is often nothng more than a mirage. Take a look at the Yankees' 1996 roster and how they were put together. Beyond their many free agent signings, look at some of the players from their system they traded to get their other players. Practically all of them never amounted to anything at all. Minor league players, for the most part, are one big crap shoot.
Oh yeah, and Shawn Chacon, a journeyman? The guy's 27!! Up until coming to the Yankees he'd been at that pitcher's graveyard known as Coors Field. I see him more as a very good, shrewd pickup, and someone who will pay dividends, hopefully, for the next few year.
So this thread was about Theo Epstein resigning, yes?
Who?
did he technically resign or did he decide not to renew his contract?
I dunno ... the article says: Theo Epstein stunned the Red Sox and the baseball world this afternoon by walking away from his job as general manager. Which sounds like he resigned. But then in the next paragraph: Just hours before his deal was set to expire at midnight, Epstein told his bosses and associates at the Red Sox' Yawkey Way offices that he had decided not to accept a three-year deal worth $1.5 million a year, an extension for the contract he signed on Nov. 25, 2002. I mean, are you really resigning when you have hours left on your old contract? I suppose even if a deal wasn't done, you're still the GM until one or the other of you says it's over.
Small and Chacon are actaully good examples of why the Yankees have a poor minor league system - as they had to snag these two journeymen because they had nothing beyond Wang in the minors. It's an indictment of their current woes, not an example of their current strength. posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 3:49 PM CST on November 1 Nice point Weedy. But it's all in the interpertatinn. A good front office (ie: GM, Manager and Owner) can make the difference. In my above comment, the Yankees were smart enough to keep the good (Williams, Jeter, Posada and Cano) and trade the not-so-good (Johnson, Chote, Navarro and Davis - for example) and get pretty good players for the trade-bait. Nothing succeds like success.
I don't see any reason why this keeps being connected to the Times/Globe ownership of the Sox. It's hardly a new phenomenom for a reporter to report as a shill for an ownership group. When M. Donald Grant spoke, it often came out of Dick Young's column in New York. The late Will McDonough of the Globe served as Patriots owner Bob Kraft's bullhorn. I seriously doubt that any of this would have happened differently if the Times/Globe was not a member of the ownership group. And, while I generally don't like Shaughnessy, I thought his article was fair; it was not one-sided.
It's hardly a new phenomenom for a reporter to report as a shill for an ownership group. ...and they were shilling long before this ownership situation came into being. Love-hate buttsuckers, is what they are.
I thought his article was fair; it was not one-sided. Go back and reread the part about their amatuer baseball careers. It's definitely not fair, the entire article is about elevating the image and importance of Larry Lucchino. The main point is that Lucchino is a "baseball man", despite the fact that he's a promoter and real estate developer and uses his amatuer athletic career as a way to put down Theo.
If you can stomach it, Shaughnessy's column today. He tries to defend himself, even going so far as to link to the previous column but it just makes it worse in my eyes. Some more quotes from the "fair" article from Sunday:
He got to the mountaintop faster than anyone in the history of the game and deserves to be paid accordingly. But he did not get there alone. And that's why he's not signed yet.
Eventually, the prodigy is ready to make it on his own and no longer feels he needs the old man.
Lucchino and Dr. Charles Steinberg are a pair of Red Sox executives who ''discovered" Theo when he was a student at Yale. They picked him out of thousands of wannabe interns. They hired him in Baltimore and then took him to San Diego with them. They held his hand and drove him places during his Wonder Years.
Let's start with Theo being a ''baseball guy" while Larry is a lawyer with a lofty title (CEO). Granted, Epstein is a student of the game, but it's a mistake to say he knows more about baseball than Lucchino or anyone else in the Red Sox baseball operation. Theo is 31 years old and did not play baseball past high school...Lucchino was a good high school baseball player and made it to the NCAA Final Four with Princeton's basketball team. He came to baseball as an executive in 1979, when Theo was 5 years old.
Today he doesn't try to defend any of those statements, he can't. He can only use the Colorado trade in his defense basically saying "I was just telling Lucchino's side of the story'. We get it Dan. You and Larry are thick as thieves.
Theo is 31 years old and did not play baseball past high school...Lucchino was a good high school baseball player and made it to the NCAA Final Four with Princeton's basketball team His argument is that Theo isn't a baseball man because he only played through high school, whereas Larry played through high school? Works for me.
Ok; I guess I didn't read the article that thoroughly; I tend to do that with Shaughnessy because of my dislike for him. My main point stands; Shaughnessy's stuff would be the same if the Globe wasn't a part of Red Sox ownership.
The Shaughnessy issue has only to with him getting the information in this article directly from Lucchino and then writing a column clearly biased in his direction. The larger Globe issue is that this article in combination with the Edes/Snow article Monday morning shows that Lucchino was using the Globe exclusively for his own gains. But you are right, if Shaughnessy worked for the Boston metro, he'd still be a dick.
Shaughnessy's stuff would be the same if the Globe wasn't a part of Red Sox ownership. Perhaps. But would he have the access to Lucchino if they weren't? And would he be pressured to take Larry's calls?
This whole thing is complete insanity. If you are planning a trip to Boston, I'd give it about 6 months before you visit, it's quite possible this is contagious.
I don't know. I tend to side with Simmon's take on the situation. I wish he would have stayed. No doubt there's problems. Maybe the ownership will realize that now. Hopefully, the sox fans will not let this slide by. But this wasn't Auerbach here, not yet. In his three years he made some great moves, some awful moves, some lucky moves. If every bounce doesn't go the sox way in 04 they're not ws champions. Don't get me wrong, I wanted him to stay very badly. The team has a lot of problems they need to take care of. But if this was going to happen, might as well be now.
Are the Red Sox becoming the AL version of the Cubs? A storied franchise owned by a media group that has no incentive to produce a winner, since they'll make shit-tons of cash off the fiercely loyal fanbase no matter what?
Gary, I'd respond to the BSG's points with this. Simmons' comments on Theo always came off like sour grapes-- notice he spins it into "If I were managing the Celtics," like that would happen if there were any justice in a world were Theo got to be Sox GM. Like the years in Yale Law School for one are counterbalanced by the years boozing it up at U Mass and hanging at Store 24 for the other. Are the Red Sox becoming the AL version of the Cubs? A storied franchise [making] shit-tons of cash off the fiercely loyal fanbase no matter what? No fucking way. All our bandwagon fans disappear after a couple of down seasons. I'll admit Fenway has seen a permanent bump in the attendance trendline as it's become a place to be seen, but true Yankees don't put up with Lovable Losers. Remember Ted Williams' majestic home run in his final at bat was witnessed by like 4,000 people.
Yerfatma, I don't read simmons enough to know of his sour grapes. I'm certainly not putting much faith in his opinion. I know he's 'light' reading. I just agree with the basic premise that three years isn't long enough to say the sky is falling now that he's gone. For me, the big question is was this a one time thing or will no one be able to work with Lucchino. Was this a result of a teacher and student reaching a natural separation or is it something bigger? If it's the former, then I'm not that concerned. Don't get me wrong, I would have loved to have theo around for the next 50 years. But there are others as capable, and theo's record is mighty short. The article also seems to pick and choose. Getting rid of nomar and cabrera, brilliant. Letting cabrera go and getting renteria, not so good. (that could change I know). Are the Red Sox becoming the AL version of the Cubs? A storied franchise [making] shit-tons of cash off the fiercely loyal fanbase no matter what? Wasn't that long ago fenway was rather empty.
Searching for St. Theo Just to complete the thread.
