Why is it that no sports team has ever died in a plane crash Evansville University basketball team, 1977, 29 players, staff and fans Hendrick Motorsports NASCAR team, 2004, 10 people associated with the team, including family, team crew, and pilots Italian A.C. Torino football squad, 1949, almost the entire team (see Superga air disaster) Manchester United football club, 23 players, staff and associates, 1958 (see Munich air disaster) Marshall University football team, 1970, 35 players Oklahoma State University, 2001, ten people associated with men's basketball team (including two players) Puerto Rico national women's volleyball team, 1970, most members of the team (on the same flight as Carlos Cruz) Surinam professional football team, fourteen players of an ad hoc, at Zanderij airport, Paramaribo Uruguay's Stella Maris rugby team, 1972, 29 of 45 team members (see Andes flight disaster) US Olympic boxing team, 1980, all team members except for Bobby Czyz, Marvis Frazier and Lee Roy Murphy US figure skating entire team, 1961, on Sabena Flight 548 Wichita State University, 1970, 31 players, coaches and supporters, at Colorado Zambia national football team members, 1993
Yikes.
Protestant, Catholic, Jew, whatever. Each person is going to be judged on his/her beliefs and what is truly within his/her heart. Yes, Jesus was born a Jew. And his Disciple Peter became the first Pontif of what is now the Roman Catholic Church. To me, (Note this is MY OPINION and not what I think YOU should believe), any RELIGION is fanatacism. Religions all have doctrines and interpretations handed down by a select group of men who tell you what's right and wrong. FAITH, on the other hand, compels one to read the Bible, believe what is says without misconstruing the meaning to suit one's own needs and accepting Christ as the Son of the Living God. I believe one is not always right in faithfully being religious. I feel one should be religiously FAITHFUL. Sometimes, I wonder just exactly what the Bible truly said, before being interpreted (or re-written) By King James for the Church of England. Is Hell really a fiery pit, or was the Church trying to scare the Hell out of people? Does Hell even exist? Is Hell, not a place of constant torment, or is it a total and complete separation from God? Or, is it when someone's spirit simply ceases to exist? My point here is, none of us will really know the truth until we're dead. So, in the meantime, let's all just believe what we feel is right in our own hearts and minds, stop trying to force one's views on their fellow man, and just simply do the right thing.
daddisamm: I would caution people who are making assumptions one way or another. Who's assuming? This is from goddam's article: ...and I must say, that image is even creepier than what I'd imagined. Talk about having Jee-zus stuffed in your face, can't the guy just post ONE flyer at the start of the season and be done with it? And when exactly do the rabbis and the imams and the shamans do their "broad back to back" rounds? Creepy. posted by lil_brown_bat at 2:38 PM CST on September 21 Yes, LBB i can see where you might find that a little creepy. I wouldnt call that creepy myself, but thats where you and I would disagree. However, When I was talking about assumptions, I was specifically talking about the "jewish issue" that was brought up in the article.
Protestant, Catholic, Jew, whatever. Each person is going to be judged on his/her beliefs and what is truly within his/her heart. Yes, Jesus was born a Jew. And his Disciple Peter became the first Pontiff of what is now the Roman Catholic Church. To me, (Note this is MY OPINION and not what I think YOU should believe), any RELIGION is fanaticism. Religions all have doctrines and interpretations handed down by a select group of men who tell you what's right and wrong. FAITH, on the other hand, compels one to read the Bible, believe what is says without misconstruing the meaning to suit one's own needs and accepting Christ as the Son of the Living God. I believe one is not always right in faithfully being religious. I feel one should be religiously FAITHFUL. Sometimes, I wonder just exactly what the Bible truly said, before being interpreted (or re-written) By King James for the Church of England. Is Hell really a fiery pit, or was the Church trying to scare the Hell out of people? Does Hell even exist? Is Hell, not a place of constant torment, or is it a total and complete separation from God? Or, is it when someone's spirit simply ceases to exist? My point here is, none of us will really know the truth until we're dead. So, in the meantime, let's all just believe what we feel is right in our own hearts and minds, stop trying to force one's views on their fellow man, and just simply do the right thing.
Sorry, guys...didn't mean to post twice. My bad.
Yes, LBB i can see where you might find that a little creepy. I wouldnt call that creepy myself, but thats where you and I would disagree. Would you call it creepy if some self-appointed "chaplain" -- someone who is unknown to her and does not necessarily represent her beliefs -- came into your unconscious mother's hospital roomand decided to "minister" to her?
Would you call it creepy if some self-appointed "chaplain" -- someone who is unknown to her and does not necessarily represent her beliefs -- came into your unconscious mother's hospital roomand decided to "minister" to her? I would call it someone reaching out to be helpful and caring. It would be really hard for the "chaplain" to minister to someone who is unconconcious. I have been in situations where a gravely ill parent (or myself) was is the hospital and close to death. Nobody is allowed in the room that aint supposed to there, The Local chaplain only comes if you request it. I think you are trying to make more out of this situation than it warrants. Sounds like this "chaplain" is invited into the locker room. I was more concerned about the Jewish implications in this story, than somebody handing out a Christain pamphlet.
slew, you've got a great perspective on the very important distinction between personal faith and social religion. The thing is, in practice the two often become inseparable in the practioner's mind, and the commingled beliefs often entail the axiom: convert or destroy, to over-simplify. Organized religion remains the prime motivator, and what are we humans really good at? That's right. We are good at selflessness, compassion, and letting others be different. The usual.
Maybe in an effort to be more inclusive, the Nationals should start selling a beer called "He-Brew." I think that's a beer that both chrisitianists and Jews could agree on. Christianists would see the capital-H "He" and think of their god and Jews would see "Hebrew."
A beer? I am not sure where you are going with your reasoning Hellx
There actually is a beer called HeBrew (the chosen beer). I've had it, and it's pretty good. Really.
http://www.shmaltz.com/
index1.html
I would call it someone reaching out to be helpful and caring. It would be really hard for the "chaplain" to minister to someone who is unconconcious. I have been in situations where a gravely ill parent (or myself) was is the hospital and close to death. Nobody is allowed in the room that aint supposed to there, The Local chaplain only comes if you request it. I've been in such situations too, and it's not like they've got an armed guard on the door. Intrusive people try to go where they want. I agree that it's st00pid for any "chaplain" to "minister" to an unconscious person, but that doesn't stop them from trying -- sprinkling holy water, waving around magical medals, reciting holy words, or some other kind of juju. These people are not constrained by a sense of the appropriate, and your experiences to the contrary, they most certainly do go where they're not invited, or only marginally so. Which brings me to... I think you are trying to make more out of this situation than it warrants. Sounds like this "chaplain" is invited into the locker room. Invited by whom? A unanimous and anonymous vote of the assembled players? Should one player have the right to invite a "chaplain" into the locker room to shove tracts in everyone's face, regardless of their religious affiliation? If so, how would you feel if a Muslim chaplain did the same thing to each and every player?
Wow, I dont know what to say LBB . You really sem to be upset by this subject. From the stuff I read this chaplain and others are in baseball locker rooms all over the country. Somebody let them in there. I have never experienced anything like people forcing their way into hospital rooms and sprikling holy water on people or other "ju ju". I guess we live in two sperate worlds. you seem to have a hatred for anything religious and I am sorry that you feel that way. Like I said before LBB, I really dont know how to repond to you on this topic.
A hebrew beer?--I give up
People arguing about religion reminds me of two children in the playground fighting over who has the best imaginary friend. Grow up everybody.
I don't see lbb hating God or religion nearly as much as the hypocrisy and wrongheadedness it spawns in so many of its followers. If that's the case, then I'd like to thank God for giving me the insight and wisdom to plumb this issue. If not, well, forget it.
Zambia national football team members, 1993? I meant NFL,NBA,MLB,NHL. -George Costanza
Wow, I dont know what to say LBB . You really sem to be upset by this subject. From the stuff I read this chaplain and others are in baseball locker rooms all over the country. Somebody let them in there. I have never experienced anything like people forcing their way into hospital rooms and sprikling holy water on people or other "ju ju". I guess we live in two sperate worlds. you seem to have a hatred for anything religious and I am sorry that you feel that way. Like I said before LBB, I really dont know how to repond to you on this topic. You could start by not making assumptions, like "hatred for anything religious". While you have volunteered your spiritual beliefs here for the general viewing audience, I have not, and neither you nor anyone else here knows what I believe or practice. You could also admit that your experience and your views towards "anything religious" (which to you means Christian) don't exactly give you an objective viewpoint on the question of whether "ministering" crosses the pushiness line. You claim to have never experienced a Christian chaplain "ministering to" those who'd rather not be ministered to, or who may not be compos enough to say "no thank you"; well, maybe you haven't, and maybe you just have a casual and forgiving attitude when it comes to such transgressions. I've never experienced a category 5 hurricane, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I have, on the other hand, witnessed just such transgressions as I described. On one occasion the self-proclaimed "chaplain" was so persistent that I thought it would be necessary to call security to keep him from making juju over my mother (who, had she not been in a coma, would have dope-slapped the id'yit for his presumption). In the case of this locker room, I'd say most likely this "chaplain" was invited, by somebody. But you didn't answer my earlier question, so I'll ask it again: was he invited by everybody, every member of the team? If so, were they asked in a completely non-pressuring and non-coercive manner -- or were they put on the spot? I don't know and you don't either, but you're assuming that nobody has a problem with the presence or actions of this "chaplain". I say that's a very, very big assumption. Pushy people, and proselytizers are nothing if not pushy, specialize in making their requests in ways that are difficult to refuse.
I am sorry I thought I signed on to Sports Filter - guess I hit the wrong favorite button.
We arent really told who exactly invited him in the article. Since the team banned him from the locker room, One could asusme he was invited by Team management, major league baseball,player association-I dont know. I would nee more info to make a better judgement. My biggest concern here was the concept of Jews being "doomed";which I dont believe that they are. (As I had stated before.) Second of all LBB, I am not assuming what you believe or practice-nor do a I pretend to know. All I go by is your words and you have to admit your words dont say many positive things about "christains". Thats where I get I little confused by your comments. I know that you are a very sincere person yet there is a lot of anger in some of your comments. I am trying to meet you half way LBB, but its hard cause I honestly havent seen some of the things you have-pushy chaplans in a hospital setting etc. Yes I have stated tht I am a christain on this board, not really the smartest thing I have done. Hopefully by now people realize that I am sincere in what I believe (and you dont know the entire extent of my beliefs either) and I am not really trying to offend or put down anybody.
All I go by is your words and you have to admit your words dont say many positive things about "christains". I've been wanting to ask this for a long time. Why do you consistently misspell the word "Christian"? It's weird, coming from a Christian. I think everyone who's read your comments understands that you're sincere, and for what it's worth, I believe you're also sincerely well-intentioned. But good intentions, yours or those of other Christians, aren't some kind of magic vaccine against ever doing anything wrong or hurtful. Religious proselytizing is based on the premise that other people are wrong and that it's your duty to straighten 'em out. Even those who "witness" and "minister" out of a sincere wish to improve their targets' lives and souls are guilty of not respecting others' beliefs and realities, and not honoring their chosen path. In my world view, this equates to treating others with contempt and disrespect. Christianity is out there, it's ubiquitous in our culture, and those who want it have no barriers to seeking it out. That's why I find it creepy that some Christians cannot refrain from pushing it in every school, workplace, hospital or locker room (and doubly creepy that "prayer" always seems to mean "Christian prayer"...you've got a virtual hegemony in this country, and that should be enough).
I think everyone who's read your comments understands that you're sincere, and for what it's worth, I believe you're also sincerely well-intentioned. But good intentions, yours or those of other Christians, aren't some kind of magic vaccine against ever doing anything wrong or hurtful. Religious proselytizing is based on the premise that other people are wrong and that it's your duty to straighten 'em out. Even those who "witness" and "minister" out of a sincere wish to improve their targets' lives and souls are guilty of not respecting others' beliefs and realities, and not honoring their chosen path. In my world view, this equates to treating others with contempt and disrespect You do a good job relaying your opinion on this subject. I hear this alot from alot of people. You have every right to feel tht way. Free choice is certainly a big part of the plan. Some Christians are a bit over-zealous. However thats something that nobody human can judge. Dont judge everybody because a few of them feel "creepy" You talk about "dignity and respect", doesnt that work for all people? If not, how does ones decide as to who gets respected and who doesnt? Thats what I dont understand. I a sorry that I misspelled christian. I dont do as good of job as you do in expressing myself. Thanks for a lively discussion.
If not, how does ones decide as to who gets respected and who doesnt? "Your rights end where my nose begins." IOW, when someone gets in my face with their views -- literally, or in some targeted way like sending me email, sending me snail mail, or standing outside my house with a bullhorn -- they lose all right to have their views "respected". At that point they're just unwanted noise, and I've got the right to tell 'em to shut it or take it elsewhere.
Baseball. *waves at skydivemom*
When I read this">article I was reminded of the true nature of this discussion. Wiesenthal has long been a hero of mind. Fighting for justice where there wasnt any. No matter your backround, you can do nothing but admire this man's faith that justice and closure can be bought. He lost everything in the War, and yet he kept going. Its a wonderful story. If you have never hear of Wiesenthal, there are many books out there about him....HIs own personal story is undescribable.
